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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Eponymous-Archon wrote:Name for these guys? Bone Rider? (Sounds like a porno)
Skeletohippus? No way, way too stupid.
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Boucman
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Post by Boucman »

I think skeletal rider / undead rider is good, it sounds very lvl1ish to me...
Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

First level could be simply "Skeleton rider" to fit in with the simple names of the other level 1 skeletons; and I'm not sure about the two branches it goes into.
Roel
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Post by Roel »

Boucman wrote:I think skeletal rider / undead rider is good, it sounds very lvl1ish to me...
undead rider or undead horseman
quartex
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Post by quartex »

In the intrests of getting rid of the chocobone here are some names for the undead mounted units:

Level 1 Bone Rider (or Skeleton Rider)

(for the wraiths)
Level 2 Wraith Rider
Level 3 Mounted Horror

(for the revenants)
Level 2 Iron Horseman (because of his heavy armor)
Level 3 Unholy Avenger (or Dire Avenger)

(I'm not so sure about the level 2 names, but I like mounted horror)

Here are some stats for the level 1 bone rider:

Cost: 17-19
Moves: 7
HP: 36

XP: 44 (it should be reasonably hard to level up, harder than skeletons, equal to a horseman?)

Attacks: Axe (Blade, 6-3) (or 8-2?)

I imagine this mounted unit as less of a scout and more of a fighter. So slightly better HP and attack, and thus the 7 movement instead of 8. It's not like the undead need another scout.

It seems that unit with stronger attacks have higher XP requirements. If we give the bone rider a weaker melee attack, we should lower the XP as well.

(The wraith riders would get a ranged attack, whereas the revenant riders would just get a more powerful melee attack and eventually perhaps charge)

One could argue that the mounted horror should have drain, but the same argument has been made for the level 3 undead archer, and been rejected. Already the wraiths and liches have drain, it seems that perhaps not every high level undead unit should have it. I know there is very little support for implementing new abilities right now, but the undead seem to only have 3 abilities, drain, poison, and plague. We can only reuse them so many times. Maybe the mounted horror should get plague, it would be appropriate. Raising dead units as walking corpses is an appropriate ability for a "mounted horror"

Another ability I'm interested in is a unit that heals itself when it levels up. Imagine a 3rd level unit that needs, say, 30 XP to heal itself, since it can't level up any more. I think we have one unit in wesnoth with that ability, but I'm not sure what it is. Since the undead have no healers, this auto-healing ability might be useful for level 3 units in their race.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

quartex wrote:I'm not sure what it is.
the Necrophage.
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quartex
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Post by quartex »

Thanks. I've never played with the ghoul or necrophage becuase Circon doesn't have them in his campaign. (which is sad, becuase they look like cool units) I think it would be interesting to see a few other undead units get this ability.
scott
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Post by scott »

I tried coming up with some stats for these guys and while I think the results are good for the revenant line, I don't like the results for the wraith line.

Here's why:
Wraiths and Spectres are so good as it is, why would they need to be mounted? They have great melee+drain attacks, low/medium ranged attacks, and great movement. I can't think of a benefit to putting them on a horse. Speed? No. Giving them a strong baneblade attack? Maybe. But if you make it too much stronger, then you almost have a super unit. Emphasizing their melee would impinge on the revenant line. If you gave them weak melee and stronger ranged... it's a possiblity but also quite strong.

This is what I came up with, and since no one likes anyone's submissions the first time around, just tweak the list and repost.

Level 1 Skeleton Rider

Cost: 17-19
Moves: 7
HP: 36
XP: 44
Attacks: Axe (Blade, 6-3)

Level 2 Bone Knight [revenant line]
Cost: 35
Moves: 7
HP: 48
XP: 150
Attacks:
Axe (Blade, 8-3)
Trample (impact, 7-2) charge

Level 3 Death Knight [revenant line]
Cost: 90
Moves: 7
HP: 62
XP: -
Attacks:
Battle Axe (Blade, 8-4)
Battle Axe (Blade, 13-2) charge
Trample (impact, 8-2) charge

Change the name of the current death knight to Dark Lord or something reflecting his General equivalency

Level 2 Wraith Rider [wraith line]
Cost: 35
Moves: 8
HP: 45
XP: 166
Attacks:
Baneblade (Blade, 6-2) (drain)
Wail (Cold, 6-4)

Level 3 Mounted Horror [wraith line]
Cost: 90
Moves: 8
HP: 55
XP: -
Attacks:
Baneblade (Blade, 7-3) (drain)
Wail (Cold, 10-4)

The mounted wraiths have strong wail because they can ride around shrieking their heads off (and it's a niche not filled by the revenant riders or wraith/spectres)
The revenant rider line has weaker melee than the walking version because they get speed and HP instead. I figured the bone horses wouldn't mind fearlessly trampling their enemies since they have no flesh to lose.
Names: "Bone Knight" is a naming analogue to L2 human Knight and L2 Bone Shooter. "Death Knight"... should actually be a knight, i.e. mounted!
quartex
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Post by quartex »

Thanks scott. Since drain is such a common undead ability, I'd prefer to see the mounted horror get something different, like plague. I also think that perhaps the death knight should get 8 movement, becuase i like the idea of unit speeding up as the increase in level, although perhaps that's too powerful.

On one hand flying wraiths don't need mounts, but just becuase the artwork is similar doesn't mean they are the same unit. You could have a more powerful wraith-like cretaure that can't fly, which is why it would need a mount.
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Post by MadMax »

If it got plague then any unit it killed would become a mounted horror too.
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quartex
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Post by quartex »

I'm not familar with the specifics of plague. I thought it just made any unit killed into a walking corpse.
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Post by Darth Fool »

quartex wrote:I'm not familar with the specifics of plague. I thought it just made any unit killed into a walking corpse.
Currently Plague only makes an exact copy (XP and all) of the plagued unit when it kills something that is not in a village. The new unit appears where the old unit died. There is a small (~20 line patch) available that enables an added option to plague to allow the creation of a specific unit type instead of an exact copy which would enable having the mounted horror spawn walking corpses instead. This patch has not been implemented.
scott
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Post by scott »

Here is the culprit, in actions.cpp:

Code: Select all

				//plague units make clones of themselves on the target hex
				//units on villages that die cannot be plagued
				if(stats.attacker_plague && !map.is_village(loc)) {
					a = units.find(attacker_loc);
					if(a != units.end()) {
						units.insert(std::pair<gamemap::location,unit>(loc,a->second));
						gui.draw_tile(loc.x,loc.y);
					
I think, more specifically,

Code: Select all

units.insert(std::pair<gamemap::location,unit>(loc,a->second));
Letting L2 ghouls spawn L2 ghouls using plague must have been discussed before (and if it gets discussed again, then it should be elsewhere). I personally think plague should always produce a walking corpse.

Sooo... how about this? Kept strong cold ranged, added plague for L3 [edit: only if it produces walking corpses] with a decent melee attack. Taking the Wraith name out might help avoid confusion or logic problems (it helped me). The only problem is the L2 loses a melee attack. I personally think 8 movement for the L3 [Death Knight] would be too strong, but it's not my call I guess.

Level 2 Shadow Rider [non-revenant line]
Cost: 35
Moves: 8
HP: 45
XP: 166
Attacks:
Shadow blade (Blade, 6-2)
Wail (Cold, 6-4)

Level 3 Mounted Horror [non-revenant line]
Cost: 90
Moves: 8
HP: 55
XP: -
Attacks:
Shadow blade (Blade, 7-3) (plague)
Wail (Cold, 10-4)
Neoriceisgood
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

Actualy the level two of the non-revenant line has almost the exact same "Baneblade" as the wraith; with the ability of a spiritual baneblade being that of draining the life out of it's target.
quartex
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Post by quartex »

What's the point of copying the wraith, but just making it a mounted unit? The wraith moves faster, so I figured the mounted version must have some advantage over it's flying cousin. You want to change the stats and abilities to make the mounted unit unique.
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