Request: Undead units

[Circon]

Based on a multiplayer game I played with Neorice and Schimmelface recently, I'd like to see more advanced Undead units.
I'd like the Skeleton to have two advancements (the second being the Deathblade) and for the Revenant to advance. (Crypt Lord springs to mind.)
The Deathblade would look like a thinner, darker Revenant. It would wield 2 longswords and attack something along the lines of 18-2. Perhaps it could get Ambush or Skirmisher.

The Crypt Lord would look like a more heavily armored revenant. It would wield a heavier axe and have a magical cold attack (10-1?) and/or leadership/dark healing [1].

I feel that this would give the Undead the melee power they sorely need, as well as some cool units. Is anyone willing to take a shot at it?

[1]Dark healing: 4hp healing only for undead. We've already coded drain and poison to fail against undead, surely an undead-only healing should be creatable.

[turin]

Based on a multiplayer game I played with Neorice and Schimmelface recently, I'd like to see more advanced Undead units.
I'd like the Skeleton to have two advancements (the second being the Deathblade) and for the Revenant to advance. (Crypt Lord springs to mind.)
The Deathblade would look like a thinner, darker Revenant. It would wield 2 longswords and attack something along the lines of 18-2. Perhaps it could get Ambush or Skirmisher.

The Crypt Lord would look like a more heavily armored revenant. It would wield a heavier axe and have a magical cold attack (10-1?) and/or leadership/dark healing [1].

I feel that this would give the Undead the melee power they sorely need, as well as some cool units. Is anyone willing to take a shot at it?

[1]Dark healing: 4hp healing only for undead. We've already coded drain and poison to fail against undead, surely an undead-only healing should be creatable.

i would say that the death knight image is almost perfect for an advancement of the revenant. just look at them. the stats, however, are not.

i would be happy to try to make an even more sinister revanant for the Death Blade.

[Dave]

An attack ability I've mentioned a few times before and have been kicking around for a while that would be perfect for the Death Blade:

"Death Sword": Wounds inflicted by this sword never heal. The target has its maximum hitpoints as well as its nominal hitpoints reduced by the amount of damage inflicted.

Of course, these units would be mediocre for humans, but nasty in the hands of the AI. Also the damage amount would have to be tempered to make sure they're not too powerful.

Maybe it should be reserved for a non-playable unit...

David

[Boucman]

this power can ruin a unit. even a 1-1 attack could be very annoying.

as pointed in the strategy guide HP is the only precious resource in wesnoth combat, and the only one you really manage, pushing units from the front line to the healers and the other way round

the risk against such a unit would make it extremely frustrating....

[mlangsdorf]

If you're going to reduce hit points permanently, please make it only a small amount each time, like 1-3 damage per hit. It would be very frustrating to have a full strength Great Mage or Konrad almost but not quite killed and then permanently stuck at 5 HP.

Alternately, making wounds that cannot be healed during the course of the scenario wouldn't be so bad. It might take important units out of play for a while, but it'd be recoverable.

[turin]

IMHO, if it was implemented, it would have to only last for the scenario, not the whole game. and it should only be given to a third level unit, not a second level one. and, like drain, it should only have a chance of working, maybe 30-40% if the time. basically, if it was implemented, it would have to have many restictions so it wasn't too powerful.

[Dave]

like drain, it should only have a chance of working, maybe 30-40% if the time

Drain doesn't only have a chance of working -- it always works, and drains half the hitpoints inflicted.

---

Don't worry, this attack wouldn't be common, it'd probably appear in only one scenario in a campaign, although I do think that it should be permanent (carry on to other scenarios).

True, having a unit reduced to 5 hp is no fun, but that's only 5 hp away from them being dead altogether....

David

[turin]

what? drain isn't based on percentage? i'm sure i once saw an ancient lich only drain half the time, but maybe that was a bug. it was several versions ago, so maybe its been fixed.

[Sangel]

If you were to make the drain permanent and have it only appear in one scenario, you'd have to have some way of reversing it - perhaps a "Fountain of Healing" in another scenario?

[mlangsdorf]

[quote="Dave"]
True, having a unit reduced to 5 hp is no fun, but that's only 5 hp away from them being dead altogether....
[/quote]

Yes, but if Konrad or Delafor gets dead altogether, then the scenario is over. I have to reload the scenario and try again.

If they permanently have 5 HP, then every scenario I play through the rest of the campaign is going to be significantly harder. That's a problem.

I wouldn't mind permanently losing 1-3 points (per hit) - at worst, I'm going to lose 12 points, which will make things more challenging. But losing 30 or 40 points is going to cripple the unit permanently, and if it's not a replaceable unit, that's a problem.

[Darth Fool]

Perhaps it could be a new attribute that gets added, so that multiple death sword attacks don't stack.

[Dave]

Yes, but if Konrad or Delafor gets dead altogether, then the scenario is over. I have to reload the scenario and try again.

If they permanently have 5 HP, then every scenario I play through the rest of the campaign is going to be significantly harder. That's a problem.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to be able to keep Konrad and Delfador, and other major characters away from these units, especially if they don't move fast.

David

[Dobob]

Making the hp reduction permanent would make the unit only usefull against the player in campain, while making it only last only during the level will make it usefull to use for human player (either in Circon campaign or in long mp games). The reason for this is the balance. If the hp reduction is to high, any unit hit with it in a map will become almost useless for the next levels, which is too harsh for a campaign. On the other hand, if it's low, it won't make a difference in the battle field, making it useless if the unit is not going to be recalled.

So I'm for a temporary health reduction, as it will be very good to prevent units to heal (trolls come to mind).

[fmunoz]

The best way is just to create a better Undead general unit image and reuse the current one as 3rd level revenant.

[Combatjuan]

Death Blade is a cool idea. It is very reminiscent of the blades used by the Nazgul in LotR, which I think is a good thing. But it could result in problems in the single player campaign especially if Konrad et al get hurt. I suggest two possible solutions.


Two Solutions to the Death Blade Problem:
1.) Maybe a death blade wound would never heal from either resting or villages or healers, but "cure" or some other, more potent healer, could heal it. This wouldn't completely solve the Konrad has 5 hp for every other scenario problem, because it would force player to get a unit with uber-heal, but it'd be less frustrating.

2.) Since it's really only a problem during the campaigns, perhaps scenarios could be inserted/modified such that some (or all) scenarios with death blade would be followed by scenarios with a fountain of healing of some kind that could restore the death blade wound. Maybe it would be out of the way, almost a side-quest to a scenario.