Standing and idle animations?

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turin
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Post by turin » September 13th, 2007, 10:16 pm

If the flag is going to move, the cape at least has to move... that's just my opinion.

Also, that animation makes it pretty clear which direction the wind is from, which is a problem, since if the sprite is reversed and standing next to another unit of its type, the waving will look very unnatural.


Aiy, this is a rather negative post... that's not intentional, it's just there are things here that I think are fixable. ;)
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Post by Vendanna » September 13th, 2007, 10:23 pm

turin wrote:If the flag is going to move, the cape at least has to move... that's just my opinion.

Also, that animation makes it pretty clear which direction the wind is from, which is a problem, since if the sprite is reversed and standing next to another unit of its type, the waving will look very unnatural.


Aiy, this is a rather negative post... that's not intentional, it's just there are things here that I think are fixable. ;)
And what happens if the Flag is set up as a Halo? would that doesn't change if the unit looks to the other side?

Can halos be different if the unit is attacking? :o

Anyway, that only means the unit will need a filter animation when its facing the other way around, you only need to take the flag anim and put it on the inversed frame.

Between, that also means wind will always go in that direction? that's a problem I was expecting, especially if you consider the flags when you take a village blow in the other direction if I don't remember wrong :P
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Post by Erk » September 13th, 2007, 11:19 pm

Hmm. I think the standard is much too animated: it looks like it's made of fairly heavy cloth, and it has a second fold with a metal weight on it, so it must take quite a lot of wind to snap and ruffle it like that... yet the rest of the sprite is standing totally still. I would suggest trying to keep it to a very small rippling animation, personally, to keep from advertising how totally still the rest of the sprite is in comparison.

I dunno about the whole flag animation thing... if flags are animated in the wind, why aren't cloaks or robes? why not long hair? It opens a pretty big can of worms. But I'm not saying it can't be made to look good, that's just my 0.02

Maybe a better way to do it would be as an idle animation where a gust of wind comes up and blows the flag and cloak and hair and everything on the sprite?
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Post by Jetrel » September 14th, 2007, 6:03 am

Do you guys understand the concept of "Work In Progress"?


Redeth didn't "fail to animate anything but the standard" because he's dumb. He didn't do that because he had some hideously wrongheaded notion that we would somehow want it that way. It's obvious that it's wrong that way. Painfully obvious - everyone in this thread with two brain cells to rub together has made note of it. So don't comment about that! It's insulting, and frustrating. Consider why he would choose to post something that has obvious flaws. He doesn't need comments on the obvious flaws; they're ... "obvious". "Obvious" means they're something everyone knows, so don't insult his intelligence by posting them.


Why did he post this?
1] He posted it to get comments on the non-obvious flaws. The only portion of it that could possibly be intended as done is the standard. Comment on that, alone.

2] He posted it because something wasn't right, and he couldn't figure it out himself. He probably spent anywhere from a few to several hours on it, the night grew old, and he'd poured a big slice of time which most people would rather spend having fun, and to add insult to injury, he had jack [censored] to show for all his hard work. It was time to give up for the night. He wanted to at least show that he'd tried. Pat him on the back for doing that - it's not like we're paying him to do this.

3] But at least in theory, he didn't have to do what I often have to - to simply quit in disgust, and pray that the muse will somehow strike the next day. He had another option, which was the leverage the power of a community - to offer it up to us, so we could help figure out what he couldn't get to look right.

Preferably this means trying to do edits of it - words aren't worth much for something like this, because they're far too vague.

I dunno about the whole flag animation thing... if flags are animated in the wind, why aren't cloaks or robes? why not long hair? It opens a pretty big can of worms. But I'm not saying it can't be made to look good, that's just my 0.02
All of those should be animated. Also, the body should shift, ever so slightly. It's actually rather easy to do; you're not turning a body in 3d space, you not even lifting the arms and changing the pose. It's just grabbing sections with a marquee, and pulling them around.

It sounds big and scary, but it should actually be fairly trivial compared to many projects around here; the only reason I'm not doing it right now, is because finishing the major redesigns/replacements for team-color is more important, and is a prerequisite to not just this, but many other tasks.

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Post by Jetrel » September 14th, 2007, 6:12 am

Artists work for a number of reasons, such as "getting paid", "having fun from trying something curious and new", and "because someone appreciates the work being done". Most artists who work on wesnoth don't do it for reasons one or two; one is obvious, and two is because spritework rapidly becomes tedious after you've done the first few animations in a class.


Artists who work on wesnoth aren't paid in cash, they're paid in appreciation, compliments, and goodwill.

Don't neglect to pay the piper.


This is especially important when the artist is frustrated with his own work.

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Post by Shadow » September 14th, 2007, 7:22 am

Basicly if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing.

Cough I really like the direction of this animations. I wil try it out myself for some of my stuff.

It looks nice I would try to make the waving quite subtile else it could happen that the wind comes from different directions ingame. Perhaps some blinking of the eyes to give the animation more life.
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Post by irrevenant » September 14th, 2007, 8:26 am

Sorry. I keep assuming that you guys know how much you rock and that my own comments and tweaks are but offerings to the gods.

So to make it clear: I am in awe of the skilled artists in this forum. If I comment or tweak something it's just because I want to paddle in the ocean of talent in this forum.

(Melodramatic I know, but it was the best way I could sum it up. :?)
Shadow wrote:Basicly if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing.
I really doubt that anyone's intentionally saying anything un-nice. The line between helpful critique and harsh criticism is fuzzy and differs from person to person.

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Post by Erk » September 14th, 2007, 10:54 am

Actually, my point was more that with that strong of a motion on the flag, the rest of him is going to have to have a very large animation on it to fit, which will be kind of distracting as a standing animation. It wasn't a complaint that the present WIP is not complete... that much is obvious from the way it is introduced ("blah").

Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Redeth's work is, and continues to be, very good stuff.
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Post by Shadow » September 14th, 2007, 11:04 am

irrevenant wrote: ...
Shadow wrote:Basicly if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing.
I really doubt that anyone's intentionally saying anything un-nice. The line between helpful critique and harsh criticism is fuzzy and differs from person to person.
I must pull myself together not to post only critism too.
But sometimes you should actual mention the things that are felicitous not the things that are wrong. Most artists know it anyways and actual ask basicly for an idea to fix it.
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Post by Qes » September 14th, 2007, 11:52 pm

<wades out into the deep shark-infested waters>

I for one, and only one, both agree with Jetryl and also sort of disagree with him.

Let me explain in brief.

For someone like me, my opinion matters so very very little in my head when it comes to art. And since people are constantly (or at least it feels that way) complimenting artists, what is my little $0.02 gonna add?

I feel overwhelmed by the immensity of the talented vs the subjective offerings I might lay at an art-masters feet.

That being said, i completely understand what Jetryl said. Redeath knows the obvious flaws and is looking for some feedback. So it is for us to give both positive and constructive(/reconstructive) feedback, on whatever level we are able.

That being said, one must take context into account just as much for one who gives feedback as for one who provides a peice of art asking for feedback. Jetryl is right, we must consider Redeath's purpose in giving us the opportunity to see what he's worked on; but by the same token, we too should be considered in context for why we give the feedback we do.


My limited opinion noted only by what i have experienced in my life, and with understanding none of the technical difficulties of sprite-art is this:

I have seen both the pole waggling and the pole not waggling versions.

I think I prefer the pole waggling one. Yes, it does make the wind look more vicious and such, but it also makes it look more real. An immobile pole, when considering flag and pole only in the sprite, makes the flag look increadibly light, and perhaps likely to rip if in battle. The heavier pole-waggling version makes it look of heavier and more battle-worthy cloth. It also allows for the eventual possibility of a moving sprite model - which would also waggle the pole, would it not?

On the rest of the sprite's effects. I think Jetryl is right. I also think that the ultimate wish, if I am to understand it correctly, is for nearly every single part of every single aspect of a sprite to be animated in the glorious eventuality that is wesnoth art. Meaning, the hair, movement, swaying, weight distribution, pieces of clothing and everything will eventually be animated in "the end." (If such a thing exists.)

Being that as it is, its not important to compare it to the rest of the sprite. Merely the pole and flag (as one concept) need be compared to what we think of as the more fluid dynamics of what we perceive as reality.

I think also that if the end of the flag were to "tip up" as it is the lightest part would be an interesting addition. Often the "whiping" effect is found in flags when the wind is a bit higher - but perhaps that would be an idle-animation effect on this standing one. A "gust of wind" idle added to a "light breeze" standing would be very lively, i would think.



Finally: From what Jetryl has said, I fully salivate at the idea of sprites, not normally conceived as such, being fully animated at all times of wesnoth play. The sheer immersion value and feeling as though one was in a real world looking down from on high would be incredible. Also, because of the nature of this being open-source, the ability for people to improve and add upon what others have made reduces the over all tedium that Jetryl described. It IS fully possible over time to ever increase the amount of animations and liveliness of the characters. And I dream of each step in great anticipation.


Take what I have said in context, and take it however you choose to. I am new here, yet I see what my eyes and my senses have granted me to perceive. And I am not so greedy as to keep such things to myself.

Be well,
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Post by irrevenant » September 15th, 2007, 12:33 am

BTW:
turin wrote:Also, that animation makes it pretty clear which direction the wind is from, which is a problem, since if the sprite is reversed and standing next to another unit of its type, the waving will look very unnatural.
I was going to make a comment like this, then I thought "HMMA". Given the size of the battlefield you would expect the wind to whorl and shift all over the place.

Still, only one way to know for sure...

I think that's okay - it just looks like a wind is blowing between the two units.
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Post by thespaceinvader » September 15th, 2007, 7:26 am

Yeah, that doesn't strike me as a major problem in this case - the flag's movement is small enough that it just looks like a different sort of flickering. If the flag was blown right out in one direction and stayed there, it might look odd.
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Post by Blarumyrran » September 15th, 2007, 7:33 am

also notice that 2 units can never stand next to each other like that, because the hex goes like this:

Code: Select all

  ***
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*     *
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2 units next to each other in any ingamely possible way would seem even less strange to have opposite direction wind.

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Post by thespaceinvader » September 15th, 2007, 9:35 am

Also, presumably, the standing animations of two units would rarely be in exact sync like that, presumably, which would lessen the problem (not that it really is one) even further. In fact, would it be possible to make sure that two adjacent units' animations are never in sync - i think that might look odd with some of the putative anims.
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Post by Qes » September 15th, 2007, 10:56 am

thespaceinvader wrote:Also, presumably, the standing animations of two units would rarely be in exact sync like that, presumably, which would lessen the problem (not that it really is one) even further. In fact, would it be possible to make sure that two adjacent units' animations are never in sync - i think that might look odd with some of the putative anims.
But ....but....


I still want on very very rare occasions, a whole line (say 5-6 or more) of Walking corpses to break out (simultaniously and in tandum) into dancing the "Thriller" zombie dance.

The sheer sight of it would be awesome.
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