Changes to Orcish Units

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Dave
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Changes to Orcish Units

Post by Dave » March 15th, 2004, 10:10 pm

In my opinion, orcs should be powerful at close range, requiring finesse and skill to kill.

At the moment, I am concerned that some of the orcish units are rather weak. Specifically, orcish grunts have 9-2 at close range. Meanwhile, elvish fighters have 5-4 at close range, and spearmen have 7-3. both the fighter and spearman have a complimentary ranged attack, but the grunt doesn't.

Also troll whelps have just 7-2 at close range, although admittedly, they do have the powerful 'regenerates' ability, and thick skin to absorb damage.

These units are both cheap (12 gp each), but even so, I think the game would be more interesting if they were somewhat more powerful.

My proposal is to increase troll whelp's attack to 8-2, with no cost increase, and to increase orcish grunt's attack to 8-3, and increase their cost to 14.

This would also make orcish grunt's less susceptible to 'slow' attacks, which can be used very powerfully against orcs at the moment.

Any opinions on these changes?

David
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Post by turin » March 15th, 2004, 10:14 pm

troll whelps are, in my opinion, powerful enough for their cost. when playing the konrad campaign, they and their upgrades are the only units i actually fear.
of course, i am not sure that adding one damage will really change much. just don't add another strike, or a whole new attack.
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Post by quartex » March 15th, 2004, 11:38 pm

Sounds good to me. Since the orc grunt has no ranged attack it makes sense that his melee attack should be extra powerful. And adding a point of damage to the troll whelp shouldn't make them too powerful.

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Post by Circon » March 16th, 2004, 4:59 am

I could have sworn Elvish Fighters had 4-4 as a default, and the Orcs did more base damage.
I don't really see the need for this. IMHO, the problem with Troll Whelps is their high % to be hit in open terrain.
But if you want to change them, I had this idea: Whelps can get a "fling rock" attack for 4-1. They lose it on upgrading due to having to use both hands for the club.

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Post by Christophe33 » March 16th, 2004, 5:34 am

I'm also in favor of rock throwing troll whelp, maybe 6-1 but also for troll (around 10-1) and troll warrior (14-1), making attacking them with range weapon a bit more costly. Actually I was tthinking about doing that for the young ogre and the lvl2 ogre but it would fit well for troll too.
Orc grunts might be a bit too weak right now but don'tt forget that they can leveel faster (in theory) than elfish fighter.
Maybe their cost could be reduced a bit more...to 10. Otherwise, for the sake of diversity I think it should keep two attack only but maybe beefed-up to 10 or 11 (so 10-2 to 11-2). The elf have the initial advantage to be fast but not very powerfull, the human are a bit slower and more powerfull and the orcs even slower. Otherwise we end up with basically the same units under different name.
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Post by Dave » March 16th, 2004, 1:30 pm

Christophe33 wrote: Orc grunts might be a bit too weak right now but don'tt forget that they can leveel faster (in theory) than elfish fighter.
Orcish Grunts require 42 experience to level up. Elvish Fighters require just 38.
Christophe33 wrote: Maybe their cost could be reduced a bit more...to 10. Otherwise, for the sake of diversity I think it should keep two attack only but maybe beefed-up to 10 or 11 (so 10-2 to 11-2). The elf have the initial advantage to be fast but not very powerfull, the human are a bit slower and more powerfull and the orcs even slower. Otherwise we end up with basically the same units under different name.
Uhh.....see, I'd have said that it's your suggestion that makes everyone have basically the same units under different names -- you're suggesting giving troll whelps a thrown attack. That makes loyalists, rebels, and northerners each have a basic unit that is good at melee but also has a thrown attack.

My suggestion largely keeps things the way they are, it just makes grunts and whelps a little more powerful.

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Post by turin » March 16th, 2004, 2:46 pm

I think that the troll whelp's regeneration already makes it powerful. Adding a ranged attack at level one that they lose when they level would be an acceptable solution, but you whould NOT give the troll and troll warrior ranged attacks. This would make them much too powerful. They already have a more powerful attack than the horseman (albeit without the charge) and, if i remember correctly, have more health.
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Re: Changes to Orcish Units

Post by benj » March 16th, 2004, 3:47 pm

Dave wrote:In my opinion, orcs should be powerful at close range, requiring finesse and skill to kill.

At the moment, I am concerned that some of the orcish units are rather weak. Specifically, orcish grunts have 9-2 at close range. Meanwhile, elvish fighters have 5-4 at close range, and spearmen have 7-3. both the fighter and spearman have a complimentary ranged attack, but the grunt doesn't.
I think Trolls Whelps are OK since they regenerate and they are already very powerful (play trolls against undeads, you will see ;-)). To my opinion, they are powerful enough, specially if you consider they need 13XP less than elvish fighters to level up.

But it is true that orcish grunts are too weak. Their 9-2 attack is problematic and is under opponents attacks. I guess raising their damage to 8-3 would be enough. Or perhaps lowering needed XP to level up instead of raising their damage ?

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Post by Christophe33 » March 17th, 2004, 8:41 am

Dave wrote:
Orcish Grunts require 42 experience to level up. Elvish Fighters require just 38.
My mistake...I was sure it was 32...but I rarely plays with orrc. Then yes they definitively should need less Xp but that would not help them in short term. Beefing up their melee attack would. I still think that keeping 2 attackat 10 is better but I wont complain if they have 8-3.
Dave wrote: Uhh.....see, I'd have said that it's your suggestion that makes everyone have basically the same units under different names -- you're suggesting giving troll whelps a thrown attack. That makes loyalists, rebels, and northerners each have a basic unit that is good at melee but also has a thrown attack.
Actually it was proposed by someone else first, I'm interested into giving a rock throwing attack to the young ogre and the ogre who do not regenerate and have relatively weak melee attack... but that's a another topic.
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Post by miyo » March 17th, 2004, 9:08 am

Orcish Grunt melee attack to 8-3. Troll Whelp has already low experience requirement to advance so Orcish Grunt does not need to have it low.
Dave wrote:This would also make orcish grunt's less susceptible to 'slow' attacks, which can be used very powerfully against orcs at the moment.
Exactly.

Keep the current recruit costs.

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Re: Changes to Orcish Units

Post by Blackbeard » March 17th, 2004, 9:50 pm

Dave wrote:In my opinion, orcs should be powerful at close range, requiring finesse and skill to kill.
...
Also troll whelps have just 7-2 at close range, although admittedly, they do have the powerful 'regenerates' ability, and thick skin to absorb damage.
Is the question that whelps don't succeed (hit) often enough, or that they don't do enough damage?

I would prefer more hits, like the cryafish (3-10, iirc), which are devastating despite being 'weak' hitters because they almost always do some damage. So, 5-3 or 4-4 gives whelps a better chance to do damage than 8-2. If they hit harder, perhaps they should have higher exp, too?

I am a bit concerned that there is a gradual escalation in all units attacks. At some point there will be a general increase in all units hp (health), to compensate. But this exposes the 'weakness' again, so attacks increase, ad nausium. Rather, cap the max damage at each level and increase the hit count.

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Post by turin » March 17th, 2004, 9:54 pm

i think the main problem with trolls (at least when i fight them), is not that they do not do enough damage to you (they do), it is they are so easy to kill, having poor defense on grass and other terrains that most units do acceptably well on. giving the troll more hp or more damage will not solve this problem, i believe.
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llogiq

Trolls are powerful enough.

Post by llogiq » March 18th, 2004, 9:50 am

Disclaimer: I did not (yet) play the orcish campaign, but to me it looks as trolls are giving enough bang for your buck. Sending them in packs should compensate for a single troll whelp being weak. To quote Lord Faarquard (from the "Shrek" movie): "Some of you may die, but this is a sacrifice I am willing to make." :wink:

And after all, that's how it is supposed to be - trolls always march in packs. Even on slashdot :lol:

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