New 3rd level orcish units

[benj]

Here are some thoughs about orcish 3rd level units. They are playtested and proved to be fun to play with. Perhaps some tweaking is needed.

Comments would be appreciated. I can do the graphics for these units if they are included in wesnoth, but fmunoz or slainte are definitively more talented than me.


Orcish Slurbow

A slurbow is a barelled crossbow, which allow vertical shooting or shooting while riding. My idea was to give 3rd level orcish slurbow a sophisticated crossbow with lever, barrel & deadly bolts (like quadrellos). He has the "marksman" ability so 60% chances guaranteed to hit.

On the graphic side, I first thought about a stance with two crossbows like the following: http://azerty.org/bullorama/image/carmen-couv1.jpg (of course, I'm just talking about the stance, we don't want silliconed orcs ). But a slightly modified "orcish crossbow" image would be nice.

Code: Select all

[unit]
name=Orcish Slurbow
race=orc
image=orc-xbowman.png
hitpoints=50
movement_type=smallfoot
movement=5
experience=500
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=80
usage=archer
unit_description="The Orcish slurbow masters its crossbow skills.  He usually uses levered crossbows that allow him to load its crossbow by kneeling and his accuracy allows him to shoot deadly bolts like quadrellos with good choices of success.  His skill guarantees him a 60% chance to hit enemies he attacks, even when they hide in difficult terrain."
get_hit_sound=groan.wav
	[attack]
	name=crossbow
	type=pierce
	range=long
	special=marksman
	damage=9
	number=4
		[sound]
		time=-100
		sound=firearrow.wav
		[/sound]
		[sound]
		time=0
		sound=arrow-hit.wav
		sound_miss=arrow-miss.wav
		[/sound]
		[missile_frame]
		begin=-100
		end=0
		image=missile-n.png
		image_diagonal=missile-ne.png
		[/missile_frame]
	[/attack]

	[attack]
	name=short sword
	type=blade
	range=short
	damage=5
	number=3
		[sound]
		time=-250
		sound=sword-swish.wav
		[/sound]
	[/attack]
[/unit]

Goblin Paladin

This is the 3rd level version of the Goblin Knight. He is quicker, stronger and has a poisonous attack.

On the graphic side, a bigger version of Goblin Knight would be nice.

Code: Select all

[unit]
name=Goblin Paladin
race=goblin
image=goblin-knight.png
hitpoints=55
movement_type=smallfoot
movement=10
experience=500
level=3
alignment=chaotic
advanceto=null
cost=40
usage=scout
unit_description="Goblin Paladins ride the quickest mounts ever, dreadful giant wolves with poisoned claws.  Goblin Paladins are fearsome and merciless enemies."
get_hit_sound=groan.wav
	[attack]
	name=fangs
	type=blade
	range=short
	damage=8
	number=5
		[frame] 
		begin=-150
		end=100
		image=goblin-knight-attack.png
		[/frame]
	[/attack]
	[attack]
		name=claws
		type=blade
		range=short
		damage=5
		number=2
		special=poison
		[frame] 
			begin=-150
			end=100
			image=goblin-knight-attack.png
		[/frame]
	[/attack]
[/unit]

[quartex]

Great job benj, it will be cool to start being able to play 3rd level orcish units. I was worried that you might have stopped working on the orcish campaign, once you get the 3rd level finished hopefullly we can start seeing it in the next version of the CVS, yes? I figure you have enough of a campaign to at least include a teaser (like circon's was), which would allow a lot more people to playtest it, instead of having to install it by hand.

I know goblins aren't necessarily evil, but we already have a human paladin and since goblins definitely aren't lawful and this unit use poisen, perhaps paladin isn't the best name for it? It looks to me like it is a bad-ass knight unit, but I would say it is more of a "goblin avenger" than a "goblin paladin". Anyone else have thought on a more appropriate name for an chaotic elite riding unit?

[fmunoz]

Dont use paladin, try to find a good original name fior him.
mmm
Dont give the marksman skill to the orc slurbower.. marksman is too tied to elves, I dont feel that orcs should have it. give them a few more hp and I'll use a bulkier orc design for him.
Maybe Goblin direwolver or something similar.
I had a dessign of 3rd level wolf rider using spear to charge ... but your idea is also good, as I'm going to remove the spears image from the 1st level wolf rider unit I'll try to do some graphics for your units.

[Feldegast]

Though, considering the long reloading time of a crossbow, I'm surprised to see how often the crossbow units can shoot compared with bow units.

[benj]

Dont use paladin, try to find a good original name fior him.
mmm
Dont give the marksman skill to the orc slurbower.. marksman is too tied to elves, I dont feel that orcs should have it. give them a few more hp and I'll use a bulkier orc design for him.
Maybe Goblin direwolver or something similar.
I had a dessign of 3rd level wolf rider using spear to charge ... but your idea is also good, as I'm going to remove the spears image from the 1st level wolf rider unit I'll try to do some graphics for your units.

I used paladin because I wasn't able to find a better name. Direwolver seems pretty cool to me.

Speaking of the marksman ability, perhaps it could be replaced by a 10/4 attack instead of 9/4 + 4 or 5 more HP. This would emulate the fact that Orcish Slurbow shoots deadlier bolts.

Great job benj, it will be cool to start being able to play 3rd level orcish units. I was worried that you might have stopped working on the orcish campaign, once you get the 3rd level finished hopefullly we can start seeing it in the next version of the CVS, yes? I figure you have enough of a campaign to at least include a teaser (like circon's was), which would allow a lot more people to playtest it, instead of having to install it by hand.

Well, at this moment I'm planning major redesign of parts of the storyline, so I prefer to wait a bit before seeing this campaign included in the CVS. A 4th scenario is done but I'll insert scenarios between the 2d and the 3rd.

Though, considering the long reloading time of a crossbow, I'm surprised to see how often the crossbow units can shoot compared with bow units.

Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level unit with a levered crossbow, lever help him to reload faster. Still he has one shot less than elvish avenger or sharpshooter. But perhaps I'm to experiment a 12/3 attack instead of 9/4. This would mimic crossbow better.



Thanks to everyone for your comments, they help a lot.

[Dobob]

I've no problem with a level 3 goblin wolf rider, but I really don't see orcs having a level 3 archer. IMHO, level 3 units are the elite or the leaders of the army, so only if such elite would be considered in an army or if they could emerge should the be available. And orcs are having archers only as a way to use those useless orcs who can't fight well and because they need some ranged power. So orchish archers should always be kept weak, just like bats for the undead.

In my mind levels should be :
0 : mass cheap troops or units that shouldn't be fighting (like some peasants)
1 : the bulk of the army
2 : the stronger, more experienced part of the army
3 : the elite units who are rare in a real army or heroes
4 : units that have mastered their art, very rare to see many in the same battlefield
5 : unique units, the strongest of it's class or a legendary monster

So : do others people think that there should be elite orchish archers ?

[fmunoz]

Reading Dobod points I should agree.. maybe we should keep orc archers as only 2 levels unit (like elvish scouts).
MAybe we should try to create a 2nd or 3rd level variation for grunt path.

[miyo]

At least no 'marksman' ability. Sticking with two levels for Orcish/Goblin archers seems reasonable.

- Miyo

[Feldegast]

Though, considering the long reloading time of a crossbow, I'm surprised to see how often the crossbow units can shoot compared with bow units.

Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level unit with a levered crossbow, lever help him to reload faster. Still he has one shot less than elvish avenger or sharpshooter. But perhaps I'm to experiment a 12/3 attack instead of 9/4. This would mimic crossbow better.

Does any historical data exist which covers a comparison of lever equipped crossbows and bows? I know that a lever on a crossbow gives a mechanical advantage of 4:1 or 5:1 upon loading it, but this is with light crossbows. Their main purpose is that they can be fired off with one hand compared with a bow. Still it takes maybe 2:1 the time to load such a crossbow. They don't do as much damage as an ordinary crossbow either. The more damage the crossbow bolt should do, the longer it takes to load the crossbow. I would be careful when comparing them with long bows. All this can get pretty complex if you take different types of armor into account. E.g. plate armor which is quite easily punctured with a bolt shot with a crossbow or an arrow shot with a longbox. On the contrary, ring-mail which makes a difference.

[Feldegast]

[duplicate -- something went wrong here]

[Dobob]

MAybe we should try to create a 2nd or 3rd level variation for grunt path.

*nod* The grunt is the unit that should make the bulk of every orcish army, just like the elvish archer and fighter and the human spearman. So, to make it a little more diverse, an optionnal upgrade path would be nice.

[Christophe33]

I aggree with Feldegast appreciation of crossbow. Either very slow&powerfull crank crossbow (1 shot or two per round) or faster but weaker and less precise crossbow. The lever make it faster but probably still 1/2 of a good bowman at best. Actually I think the elf marksman might be a bit underestimated for his speed of shooting and should be given an additional one to make it more worthwhile(or be given an option faster/less precise shoot).
Maybe orc should not be given any crossbow at all since they are rather complex weapon that need a lot of care to work well (and orcs are rather carelesss). small/medium bows would be good enough.
I would rather see crossbows in the hand of dwarf...instead of stinky guns

[kilder]

some random thoughts

the other upgrade path could be a heavily armored orc, and even with a spear or a pike (kind of uruk-hai of the LotR movie) with less attacks and less damage than the other lvl 2 but with more resistance, but it sounds to me like the human heavy infantry... he would make a fantastic defender, but quite slow. The lvl 3 of this one would be extremly destructive and resilient but without leadership, if it has to be a lvl 3

i'm counting with the idea exposed somewhere else of a goblin with a banner who would be a lvl 0 possibly (according to Dobob scale, they shouldn't be fighting )

of course, i suck at drawing or pixelation, so someone will have to draw them if they are accepted

[Christophe33]

some random thoughts

the other upgrade path could be a heavily armored orc, and even with a spear or a pike (kind of uruk-hai of the LotR movie) with less attacks and less damage than the other lvl 2 but with more resistance, but it sounds to me like the human heavy infantry... he would make a fantastic defender, but quite slow. The lvl 3 of this one would be extremly destructive and resilient but without leadership, if it has to be a lvl 3

What about more armored but equiped with 2 handed-sword? quite destructive but so good in defence. Two hand swords haven't been used much in this game (maybe the ogre does but it looks small for him) and it will introduce a new tactical unit. For pole-arm you have still plenty of choice, including bardiche (long wide blade on a long pole), hammer head on a long pole (forgot the name)... I'm trying to find the pictures I took of such weapon when visiting the tower of London a few years ago. If I do, will scan them and post them to gives people ideas.

i'm counting with the idea exposed somewhere else of a goblin with a banner who would be a lvl 0 possibly (according to Dobob scale, they shouldn't be fighting )

of course, i suck at drawing or pixelation, so someone will have to draw them if they are accepted

What about a orc/goblin drummer instead of banner holder? He will beat the rythm to inspire and coordinate the troups. Orc drum were cited and used in many book and games. Same type of characteristic as sought for the banner holder...weak and nearly defenseless.
A technical question: can a 0 or 1 lvl unit be given a leadership effect that will affect other units of lvl1&2 or should the banner holder/drummer be considered artificially as lvl3 to provide the leadership?

[benj]

I've no problem with a level 3 goblin wolf rider, but I really don't see orcs having a level 3 archer. IMHO, level 3 units are the elite or the leaders of the army, so only if such elite would be considered in an army or if they could emerge should the be available. And orcs are having archers only as a way to use those useless orcs who can't fight well and because they need some ranged power. So orchish archers should always be kept weak, just like bats for the undead.

I don't see why elves would have elite archers and not orcs. I believe orcs have archers because as every party they need archers to fight at long range. Orcs are not dumber than humans, they only have their own good and evil values which make them different. They also need powerful archers because grunts and trolls does not have a ranged attack (except for Orcish Warlord who has limited ranged weapon).

Moreover, keep in mind that you want 3rd level archers because you want to level up your units. We are talking about units that are played by human players here.