A New Order.

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Evander
Posts: 60
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 5:28 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by Evander »

*akadians have very hi resistances and very high damage, which I found pretty disturbing. they clearly stand apart from the rest of BfW units, in not-so-good way.
What I am saying here, that perhaps they could be slightly weaker (less damage/resistance) but more numerous.
But wouldn't that make them more similar to other factions? I am thinking about maybe trimming down their HP, and leaving rest untouched. I am not sure about this -- I would have to play once more through the whole campaign and see whether this works.
what's wrong with that? actually I thing that proper word would be "more consistent" :)
Since she is the only shaman you have (flying+healing) any reasonable person would prefer to level her up asap. As for the woman, I don't think I did.
The woman is well hidden. I decided that there MUST be one bonus which can be discovered only by accident, by a handful of players :)
some puzzle/riddle to give people a clue that she is there maybe? :P
Resistances of a tribesmen are many times better than those of royal guard. While defence is poor, the damage akladians do is totally unacceptable - 8-8 hits?
8-8? Fastfoot has 8-6, Darknite 11-5... You mean after AMLA?
yeah, forgot about amla here. still 11-5 is pretty insane :)
Mages are available later on.
Let me quote one player:
I think they are quite balanced actually - they are soooooo hard to kill and can do crazy melee damage; they would be nearly invincible if they did have a proper ranged attack (thank goodness they don't). This being the case, it was huge fun when you finally get the mages to incinerate them (no wonder they hated mages so much - haha!);
they do not need ranged attack. but I see a contradiction here:
I think they are quite balanced actually - they are soooooo hard to kill and can do crazy melee damage :)
Spoiler:
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

Evander wrote:
But wouldn't that make them more similar to other factions? I am thinking about maybe trimming down their HP, and leaving rest untouched. I am not sure about this -- I would have to play once more through the whole campaign and see whether this works.
what's wrong with that? actually I thing that proper word would be "more consistent" :)
Or boring :)
some puzzle/riddle to give people a clue that she (ADD: woman teaching healing) is there maybe? :P
No way. It's supposed to be hidden. You may find her only by accident :)
I think they are quite balanced actually - they are soooooo hard to kill and can do crazy melee damage :)
I see your point :) I will now wait for more opinions from others.

Spoiler:
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: A New Order.

Post by AxalaraFlame »

Thabk u for caring my feedback anyway...but l have to say, since l have 428 gold at beginning, swarming units, and forcing the north leader to retreat is really a possible thing. And I suppose that is irrevelant to this point. I just mean, why don't simply make the leader have 100% dodge ability (modified to be invincible), like the South Guard did? In stead of using varies of ways to make this scenerio extremely hard, this would be much simpler.

Well u may think it is already made impossible, since I could only get 4 units per turn while they get 18...I have to say "no", for I succeeded once. Lady Lorin can skirmish, and I leveled 3 loyal units to be lv2. I got 4 raiders at the first turn, and swarm warriors, all head force against the north side. Turn 4, utilizing a little bit save/load to advance my process, Lady Lorin breaks in and forced Bor Cryne to escape...then, the campaign is over, without another scenerio. This is really really a bug, good bro. :|

And what's more, Finding Reme is really a hardcore task. I cannot find him by all means, played 12th scenerio for 7 times. I reallllly got mad with this bedamned hidden location. :x :x :x
After all, I finished this campaign with 37 points, on nightmariswh level, without any save/load. (the Barnon siege is only an experiment, which I save/loaded, to unveil a hidden bug)

At last, it was the campaign's unit's balance issue. Some guys hsould have mentioned that above. I am, not exaggreated, a bit good at it, so I suppose I would be pleasant to help u do this. I think we can start with modifying Akaladians, since they are set with exotic characteristics: great resistances against physical attack, poor hp which on the other hand leads to the fear of magical attacks, and extremely good attatck points. For this I will start another post so u can see this line clear
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

AxalaraFlame wrote: I just mean, why don't simply make the leader have 100% dodge ability (modified to be invincible), like the South Guard did?
Sigil modified leaders to be invincible. And when I played the scenario without knowing it, I felt extremely cheated. That's why I vetoed this change.
In stead of using varies of ways to make this scenerio extremely hard, this would be much simpler.
It would, but I would want to avoid that at any cost. Maybe creating more units at some point for Bor Cryne, if players advances to the south. I don't know.
Well u may think it is already made impossible, since I could only get 4 units per turn while they get 18...I have to say "no", for I succeeded once.
Damn hardcore players :) :) Whatever I'll do, there will always someone, who wins the scenario :)
And what's more, Finding Reme is really a hardcore task. I cannot find him by all means, played 12th scenerio for 7 times.
It's not. You have to interrogate leaders, and then go and ask around in villages.
For this I will start another post so u can see this line clear
I am waiting, but at 11:15 of my local time (in three hours) I am starting hollidays, and then for another week I will have verylimited access to email and internet.
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: A New Order.

Post by AxalaraFlame »

I suppose u are still on holiday, right? Once u replied me, l will send u my results.
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

I'm back :)

I am not replying in feedback thread, however note that I have asked some questions out of curiosity: that is, how many player's guesses about story will follow my intentions.
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: A New Order.

Post by AxalaraFlame »

szopen wrote:I'm back :)

I am not replying in feedback thread, however note that I have asked some questions out of curiosity: that is, how many player's guesses about story will follow my intentions.
Guy, I am to disappear soon. But since I promised you first, I must give you this. I evaluated Akaladian units by a formula, and I did not take prceise numbers; I took appropriate ones which looks swifter (and actualluy looks even and make me feel comfortable), instead of vast testing by real campaign scenerio wars, so it may bring some trouble. I hope u understand it.

I reset the most real price to fit each unit's real value; so, you may need to reset some scenerios' enemy gold and income.

Which do you prefer? Sending u private msgs or I send another guy open them all here?
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

AxalaraFlame wrote:
szopen wrote:I'm back :)

I am not replying in feedback thread, however note that I have asked some questions out of curiosity: that is, how many player's guesses about story will follow my intentions.
Guy, I am to disappear soon. But since I promised you first, I must give you this. I evaluated Akaladian units by a formula, and I did not take prceise numbers; I took appropriate ones which looks swifter (and actualluy looks even and make me feel comfortable), instead of vast testing by real campaign scenerio wars, so it may bring some trouble. I hope u understand it.

I reset the most real price to fit each unit's real value; so, you may need to reset some scenerios' enemy gold and income.

Which do you prefer? Sending u private msgs or I send another guy open them all here?
Post them here.
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: A New Order.

Post by AxalaraFlame »

sorry for my bad english -_- I hope you have patience to look it over, since many details involved......here is the stuff

Rebalance work of the whole Akaladian line:

-all fighters of lv3 have a base hit points of 54, damage points of 50, regardless of whether it is lawful, neutral, or chaotic
-all fighters of lv2 have a standard hit points of 40, damage points of 36, regardless of whether it is lawful, neutral, or chaotic, needs 80exp to advance
-all fighters of lv1 have a standard hit points of 30, damage points of 24, regardless of whether it is lawful, neutral, or chaotic, needs 40exp to advance
-all units’s hp and damage points varies within a range that won’t obvioulsy overpower other kinds of same-level-same-line Akaladian units. How much they vary are up to what type of armor(resistance) and damage they deal.

Warning:
1. Akaladians have too few hp points. Though set them greatly resist physical attack is doable , since thus they comparatively fear magical attack very much, the oringinal hp points standard is quite unbalanced, or let me just say (mean no offense), it is wrong.
2. The oringinal neutral line is very different when compared to lawful and chaotic lines. However, the lawful line and chaotic line are much the same; the only difference what we can name is they are “lawful” or “chaotic”. So I reset the whole two lines of them, make them special, give them special and generally balanced characteristics.
3. This system is balanced but it still cannot merge into the deafult wesnoth multi-faction battles. This indicates that u cannot make a balanced“Era of Akaladia”. Why? No range weapons for Akaladians is just a minor thing. In fact I gave all Akaladians a bonus, the “bonus for being an Akaladian”(Funny, isn’t it? lol~ :lol2: ), let them train high quality units with comparatively less costs and the units deal greater damage.
4. Default Akaladian Resistances:
Blade(bla)=40
Impact(imp)=40
Pierce(pic)=50
Fire(fir)=10 (What the hell is that “15%”?!)
Cold(col)=10 (Not necessary, but for the sake of default wesnoth units’standard. )
Arcane(arc)=20

The complete line of Race Akaladia:
*The numbers in “()” are the former set numbers. Higher levels are not marked for the former set is ridiculous.

Clansman $10
4*3-pic (5*3. This indicates that you may need to decrease the former scenerios’ difficulty.)
move=5
19hp
23exp (highly suspectable in the general wesnoth settings. I suggest 19. But regardless, it is up to you.)


Neutral line:


Warrior $17(15)
6*4-pic-firststrike
move=5
33hp(26)
——42exp (Actually 39-45, it is up to you. Changing this need to take extradinary care for you will have to change other lines.)

Infantry $34
10*4-pic-firststrike
move=5
42hp
——86exp (Actually 80-92, it is up to you. Changing this need to take extradinary care for you will have to change other lines.)

1.Fastfoot $72
10*5-bla
move=7 (Are u really sure for this? It is your game, though; But responsibly speaking they will surely overpower any lv3 fighters. I removed their “firststrike” to make them a little weaker, but they are still very very strong. In this place I have to mention that for all melee units who could have a random trait “strong”, giving them 6 strikes takes great risk.)
48hp

2.Pikenneer $72
14*4-pic-firststrike
move=5
54hp


Chaotic line:


Raider $17
8*3-bla
move=6 (The “difference”. In compensation they have fewer hp and worse resistances than lawful and neutral units.)
30hp
——42exp (Actually 39-46, it is up to you. Changing this need to take extradinary care for you will have to change other lines. Notice, 39-46, not 45. Their domain is a little bit higher. Does that indicate chaotic units in Wesnoth is stronger than neutral and lawful? Although I dunno why but I still took it as an average standard.)

Sturmknight $34
8*5-bla
Move=6
39hp (Very few still. All kinds of such stuff result in causalities. )
——86exp (Actually 80-92, it is up to you. Changing this need to take care for you will have to change other lines.)

Darknite $72
11*5-bla
Move=6
52hp


Lawful line——leaders:


Leader $19
5*4-bla
Move=5 (You noticed, right? Akaladian foottype is already the strongest one that we have ever seen. Such a leader with 6 move points would be too strong. They gain their righteous mobility back later, but get fewer hp and damage bonus for leveling at the same time.)
27hp
——38exp (As always. Low level leaders need fewer exp points to level. Actually 34-41, it is up to you. Changing this need to take care for you will have to change other lines. Highly Unsuggested to modify it higher than 40.)

Chieftain $38
8*4-bla
Move=6
(base unit: loyalist liutenant + “being an Aakaladian” bonus)
36hp
——90exp (Actually 80-100, it is up to you. Changing this need to take extradinary care for you will have to change other lines. The principle of Leader-lines-leveling still remain mysterious, I can hardly figure out how to modify it, so I draw a big unaccurate domain for you.)

Lord $72
11*4-bla
Move=6
48hp


Lawful line——guardians:


Homeguard $19
7*3-bla
Move=5
36hp
*Resistances modification:
Fire=20
Cold=20
Blade=50
Impact=50
(In this way, Akaladian army have a complete system of fighter, tank, destroyer, leader and healer. They are inherently without ranged units so this can be neglected.)
——48exp (45? I dunno. The domain is 44-52, or 46-50. Whatever the range u pick, remind yourself that if you change this you will have to change all. Guardians level quite confusingly too so I cannot make a definite conclusion.)

Shield Guard $38
9*4-bla
*They heir the modified resistances.
Move=5
45hp
(base unit: clasher + “being an Aakaladian” bonus)
——100exp(Is this unit really a guardian pattern unit? Its hp standard is too low to make me think it over. If you suppose not, give it 85, which domain is unknown and suppose to be 80-90. Or, set them within 91-112.)

Protector $76 (The harder to kill, the higher the price...it was and should not be like that, but despite of this it really works fine!)
12*4-bla
Move=5
58hp


Healer line: (Full of suggestions and suspections. I only made them a little stronger and make some sense for their prices. These healers are no normal ones to evaluate. Healers in Akaladia are scarce. They do not get “being an Aakaladian” bonus, but in contrary eat their advantage back.)


Wiseman $20
3*2-imp (I told many people many times: if u wanna make a unit NOT neutral, its least damage per strike must be >=3, for only if a kind of damage per strike >=3, they get a lawful or chaotic bonus. You set them as lawful units and their attatck as 2*3 and , right? This is actually the same thing as setting them neutral. Infact you can see such an error happens in an very obvious place. Default Wesnoth unit—giant rat, a chaotic rat who has 2*4 attack. The designer must be drunk that day when he invented this unit lol~ :lol2: )
move=5
19hp ($20, only 2*3 attack heals+4 and 16hp...hehehe, that is funny. Units which have less than 16 hp do not even suitble for having 2 traits. Though Akaladians have only one, I solve this in presumption that they should have 2.)
——23exp (For they are hard to level up. 23 is the standard for lv0s, though I prefer 19.)

Holyman $33
3*2-imp
Move=5
27hp
Cures, Heals+8
(For their armor’s sake, this price is just fair enough.)
——42exp (Domian 38-54. If they are of mage pattern, 54 is just fine. But obviously they are not, and having only a 3*2 staff, they can hardly level. So, I gave them 42. 38 is a number refering to saurian augur’s exp, but I count holyman’s resistances in.)

Wwonderman $45
3*2-imp
Move=5
35hp
(base unit=white mage + “being an Akaladian healer”bonus. This should a decrease, not an increase.)
Special: 12*2-arc-ranged-magical (Since generally the whole Akaladian race don’t have ranged base units, “ranged” weapon can be considered as a weapon special ability.)


In conclusion, the peculiarity of the whole system of Akaladians defined two main strategies of using them:

1. During daytime, defend and siege by Homeguards, better led by Chieftains or held back by Wisemen if the condition permits. Sometimes even push the enemy away since Akaladians have innate higher attack points and hp than usual. When night falls, Homeguards still guard the edge, Chieftains lead, Wisemen heal, and slaughter by Raiders. Raiders are perfect offense units and maradurers, for they have 1 additional movement points.

2. Simply offense the enemy continuously unceasingly by hordes of relentless and ruthless and restless neutral Warriors, day and night, march forward, better led by Chieftains or held back by Wisemen if the condition permits. If you have enough money, and managed to decimate enemy poisoners and fire/arcane/cold weapon bearers before they agonize you, there should have nothing really remain existed in Irdya to stop Warrior hordes.

Hope you utilize these data wisely, because it really costs me a lot of time. This is what I could say after all. I would disappear soon because I irritated a powerful moderator, and when The_Other told me to “run far, run quick”, I didn’t. So, whatever...I wish you gl hf and succeed to make this campaign better someday.


BR

I.R.Lionheart (Axalara_Flameheart)
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

Thanks a lot, Axalara, but I have to think about that. The faction must be balanced as a whole. E.g. Akladians have not and won't have ranged weapons -- this is a mayor weakness and must be compensated. Another thing is that they are intended for use in this campaign, and the campaign would have to be rebalanced as a whole, which is HELL of work, needing literally tens of hours. Currently I have almost no time at my disposal. Hmmmm volunteers?


Hmm, for comparison, 3rd level units:

Great Troll = 80, 3*18, 48gp
Sovereign = 75, 4*10, 50gp
Warlord = 78, 3*15, 48gp

Grand Knight=78, 4*12, 58gp
General = 50, 9*4, 54gp
Royal Guard= 74, 11*4, 43gp
Royal Warrior=64, 13*3, 40gp

Skeleton Great Knight=66, 11*4, 45gp

So attack of 40-45 is perfectly acceptable in wesnoth, while attack in range of 54 is that of Great Troll, which is supposed to be of larger than humans and orcs. Point about melee attacks being too strong is most likely valid.

RESISTANCES
undead
blade, pierce,impact, fire,cold, arcane=90, 70,110,120,40,150
dwarves
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=80,80,80, 90,90,90
armoredfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=50,60,90, 110, 110,80
smallfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=100,100,100,100,100,80
orcishfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=100,100,100,100,100,100

Attacks of mages:
MageOfLight: arcane 36
RedMage: fire 32

The key points are:
Spoiler:
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
Raindancer
Posts: 11
Joined: March 30th, 2012, 3:15 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by Raindancer »

Volunteer report for duty, sir
Bazinga
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

Hehehe :) Ok, I will post here a link to temporary version of campaign. It should be ready by tuesday. Today and tomorrow (yes, tomorrow) I have a lot of work, but I should have few free hours in Sunday.
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
Raindancer
Posts: 11
Joined: March 30th, 2012, 3:15 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by Raindancer »

Damn, I should tell you that I am not a real volunteer... The "volunteer" has already been testing your game now. From now on I give all his words quoted so you can distinguish us.
I lost many points with your reply. But no soon, I will give you a complete reply to explain everything that may confuse you. Here I point out some more that you cannot take as samples to campare with:
Hmm, for comparison, 3rd level units:

Great Troll = 80, 3*18, 48gp
Sovereign = 75, 4*10, 50gp
Warlord = 78, 3*15, 48gp

Grand Knight=78, 4*12, 58gp
General = 50, 9*4, 54gp
Royal Guard= 74, 11*4, 43gp
Royal Warrior=64, 13*3, 40gp

Skeleton Great Knight=66, 11*4, 45gp

So attack of 40-45 is perfectly acceptable in wesnoth, while attack in range of 54 is that of Great Troll, which is supposed to be of larger than humans and orcs. Point about melee attacks being too strong is most likely valid.

RESISTANCES
undead
blade, pierce,impact, fire,cold, arcane=90, 70,110,120,40,150

dwarves
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=80,80,80, 90,90,90

armoredfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=50,60,90, 110, 110,80

smallfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=100,100,100,100,100,80
orcishfoot
blade, pierce,impact,fire,cold, arcane=100,100,100,100,100,100

Attacks of mages:
MageOfLight: arcane 36
RedMage: fire 32
These Bold Texts are all invalid samples.
Deault undead resistances is actually used less often, modified ones are used more; Sovereian, Deathknight, Great Troll, Royal Warrior are all not default level-up line units; mention dwarves and HIs here are not necessary for they do not play any roles in this campaign, you can largely eliminate these elements' influences; Knights are not involved in this campaign, so they can be ignored too; Light Mages are hard to get, they are few in ammounts so it is the same thing.
The whole race of Akaladians are all campaign units. There is nothing much related with default units after all, so do it boldly.

Axalara_Flameheart
Bazinga
szopen
Posts: 631
Joined: March 31st, 2005, 12:51 pm

Re: A New Order.

Post by szopen »

Raindancer, please plass my comments to AxalaraFlame

Finally, yesterday I had some free time to look more at the numbers and their results. What have struck me, that you have suggested actually increasing the HP for most Akladian units. As a result, in my test game, with that units:
1) villages can't now fully heal half-damaged units
2) Akladians are harder to kill, and the previous tactics of using Clansman as live shields for more valuable units loses it's appeal
I have to think it over, since most players complained rather about Akladians being too tough, not that they have too less HP.
"Even when the Slav is gay the effort is often evident" -- P. R. RADOSAVLJEVICH
User avatar
AxalaraFlame
Posts: 690
Joined: December 4th, 2011, 1:07 pm
Location: Pasadina, Caltech

Re: A New Order.

Post by AxalaraFlame »

szopen wrote:Raindancer, please plass my comments to AxalaraFlame

Finally, yesterday I had some free time to look more at the numbers and their results. What have struck me, that you have suggested actually increasing the HP for most Akladian units. As a result, in my test game, with that units:
1) villages can't now fully heal half-damaged units
2) Akladians are harder to kill, and the previous tactics of using Clansman as live shields for more valuable units loses it's appeal
I have to think it over, since most players complained rather about Akladians being too tough, not that they have too less HP.

Trust me. Akaladians are more expensive now, but have poorer fire resistances. Swarming naffats can make them kneel to bony knees. "Most players" may simply play it in a wrong way. I think you can add more hints of "akaladians fear fire and cold" in Reme's instructions.
And the problem is about scenerios' gold. I adjusted some of them, changed a few scenerios' oringinal intension to give enough space for better advancements. Experiments are still taking place, and seem to work well. I need another week. What's bothering you?
1) villages can't now fully heal half-damaged units
Ahn...sorry, my intension is this must not happen. Half damaged Akaladians already need quite fewer turns to heal than default units. They cannot be even stronger. Actually being cheap and having low hp simply strengthens them if they get greater population; players are not AI, so they may not quite clearly realized the power of swarming units to a last piece of gold. Technically speaking any survivors can heal with 2 turns and with a same ammounts of gold Akaladians can deal greater damage.
2) Akladians are harder to kill, and the previous tactics of using Clansman as live shields for more valuable units loses it's appeal
A completely perfect thing does not exist. The previous tactics is already an out-dated one. Akaladians are warlike and who finally showed their ability of conquering a strong kingdom; using lv0s as live shields is the way what orcs do, which is not decent. Akaladians are more like Spartans in my view, so I designed that new tactics: suppressing in the day and slaughter in the night.
Post Reply