Making "Isle of the Damned" worthwhile

jmosher · Post by **jmosher** » January 25th, 2004, 3:19 am

Are there improvements planned for this scenario? As it stands, a player is severely handicapped by choosing to go here.

First of all, think of what you are giving up by not fighting Muff Malal. There, you get the chance to advance 2nd level units. You get the chance to actually earn money, especially through an early finish. Most importantly, you meet Moremirmu who will be invaluable later.

On the Isle of the Damned, you have to get very lucky and play very well to beat two leaders. (Always I am just getting the momentum when the turns run out.) Otherwise you end up having essentially wasted your time. You don't meet Moremirmu (and thus he doesn't show up at the Princess's Revenge, right?), you don't gain any unique ally, you don't find any powerful artifact.

Therefore, here are some suggestions to make this scenario work better.

1. Find something that compensates for Moremirmu. Perhaps there could be a powerful holy mace left in the woods that one of your units could pick up. You lose the later help of Moremirmu but gain a lasting advantage, one that will also be a big help in the Princess's Revenge.

2. Make the time limit 36 turns, make the enemies much weaker, or give some added compensation for holding them off until turns run out. Right now, you have several serious obstacles that delay you:

Limited starting gold. You need to build up a serious income before you can crank out enough troops to win.
Heavily forested map. This gives an advantage to your elves, but elves' weapons are less effective against most undead. Meanwhile, your mages will be lagging.
Facing lots of bats and ghosts. This seriously slows you down as you either abandon villages or keep falling back to catch these raiders.
Nightime. Skeletons in particular become lethal now at night. You need to be really cautious or you will lose lots of units.
Lots of water but few coastal villages. Mermen take a fair amount of time moving in and out of these villages. Bats and ghosts are not similarly slowed. Needless to say, your main force will have to move early to get across the strait to kill the second leader in time.
The northern leader is a lich. Good luck killing him without mages. Good luck keeping mages alive and getting them to him in time.

Again, this leaves us with the likelihood of a draw with nothing to show for it. Most players will be dissatisfied, try Muff Mala, win handily, and make a note to skip the Isle next time. Perhaps Konrad's army could uncover a treasure trove in one of the villages on the island that would be of immediate help but would also make it likely that the player will come out with lots of extra cash even with a draw.

Post by **fmunoz** » January 25th, 2004, 3:29 am

Not all choices in the game should give balanced rewards

For this level it was planned to exchange the elves with bandits helping you so you could have the chance to recruit some new units not avalaible later.
but untill I finish the bandits graphics ... just be a man

and walk.
(for bandits you could look at http://wesnoth.whitevine.net/forum/phpB ... .php?t=568

Post by **Dave** » January 26th, 2004, 8:51 pm

Yes, we are planning to do something to Isle of the Damned to make it a more attractive option.

Various options are still under consideration, one of which is some kind of special/powerful weapon that is available. Additionally, the player should get some kind of bonus for taking the effort to kill both enemy leaders.

Another option is to move Moremirmu from Muff Malal's Peninsula to Isle of the Damned. This would make Muff Malal's Peninsula less attractive, and Isle of the Damned more attractive.

David

miyo · Post by **miyo** » January 26th, 2004, 9:41 pm

Dave wrote:Another option is to move Moremirmu from Muff Malal's Peninsula to Isle of the Damned. This would make Muff Malal's Peninsula less attractive, and Isle of the Damned more attractive.

That first timers are unaware of... they don't know which secrets lie in what scenarios. So it would only be attractive to those who have played thru the game already.

- Miyo

Post by **Dave** » January 27th, 2004, 3:17 am

miyo wrote: That first timers are unaware of... they don't know which secrets lie in what scenarios. So it would only be attractive to those who have played thru the game already.

This is correct. However it would likewise make it for first-timers that the decisions they make do not have huge difficulty-level implications that they are unaware of when they make the decision.

Post by **fmunoz** » January 27th, 2004, 8:24 am

AS bandits use crushing weapons (clubs and maces) the isle of the dammend will be a bit easier than now...

kmj · Post by **kmj** » February 22nd, 2004, 8:09 am

fmunoz: granted, I'm still a beginner, but I'm still getting my butt kicked* in this level on easy difficulty. The biggest problem is that I simply cannot create enough units to compete, I only have 100 gold to start, and there's no way I can keep up with the undead's bats.

*disclaimer: I've only played this board 3 or 4 times, but I have not yet even come close enough to winning it to be encouraged to go back and try it again.

otherwise: great campaign!

miyo · Post by **miyo** » February 22nd, 2004, 9:44 am

kmj,

have you noticed what the victory conditions are?

- Miyo

Post by **turin** » February 22nd, 2004, 2:15 pm

The main problem is that it is harder to beat the sea orc than the land orc, and yet you get a worse reward for beating the sea orc (assuming you do not beat both). this seems hardly fair.

Post by **Dave** » February 22nd, 2004, 3:13 pm

turin wrote:The main problem is that it is harder to beat the sea orc than the land orc, and yet you get a worse reward for beating the sea orc (assuming you do not beat both). this seems hardly fair.

But now you get access to entirely new units, which you would never get access to if you didn't go to Isle of the Damned. These units are especially significant because they have a 'blunt' attack, and are thus very good against undead.

David

blackjack · Post by **blackjack** » February 23rd, 2004, 12:39 am

Playing on medium difficult, it seems extremely difficult to win "Isle of the Damned" by beating both enemy leaders. I haven't played extensively yet (i.e. have only tried twice) but I'm still thinking how I'm going to kill the lich with clubs.

Not too tough to hold out to the end, though. I believe that you don't get to recruit thugs and poachers later on if you don't defeat both enemy leaders... can I suggest that the scenario be changed such that you only have to defeat one leader in order to recruit thugs and poacers?

Post by **fmunoz** » February 23rd, 2004, 12:55 am

Poachers and thugs are oly recruitable in this level, no matter how you finish the level. But this is not the final
There is stilla another 1st level bandit (footpad to evolve to outlaw) and a 2nd level poacher (trapper) to be asvalible in the next version (or when I finish them

)
I beated 1 lich and got a round to attach the other so maybe better players could do it.
I'm going to add a message form one of the guys asking konrad to ship with him.
Ok, time to start gimping to do it.

kmj · Post by **kmj** » February 23rd, 2004, 2:06 am

miyo wrote:kmj,

have you noticed what the victory conditions are?

- Miyo

I am ashamed.

kmj · Post by **kmj** » February 23rd, 2004, 2:10 am

turin wrote:The main problem is that it is harder to beat the sea orc than the land orc, and yet you get a worse reward for beating the sea orc (assuming you do not beat both). this seems hardly fair.

In 0.6.1 I would have agreed, whenthe mermen couldn't moved during the same turn they were freed. (at least, I thought they couldn't). I've played the version in 0.6.99.4 and both times I've killed the sea orc first, with enough time for my merman to help kill the land orc.

jmosher · Post by **jmosher** » February 23rd, 2004, 3:17 am

fmunoz wrote: I beated 1 lich and got a round to attach the other so maybe better players could do it.

Returning to my original posting, I think this is still unreasonably more difficult than Muff Malal. You have a choice, with no hint as to which would be a better idea, and one is a breeze and the other is a frustrating mess. This is not player-friendly. The solution to a problem should not be "reload and pick the other direction."

Please, add a few more turns to give time to pull off a win, and have Delfador give some hint that if you want the easy route, go by land.