HttT Revised

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Caladbolg
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HttT Revised

Post by Caladbolg » June 2nd, 2018, 4:11 pm

Hello! This is a feedback thread for the 'Heir to the Throne Revised' campaign, my take on the classic HttT. The framework is basically the same, most of the changes are to the characters and the plot details.

Over a year ago I wanted to revive interest in improving HttT and I started modding it so that I bring something more than ideas to the table. However, I got carried away and instead of it being 'a few minor changes to get the community started on discussing HttT', it ended up being 'a standalone, subjective take on HttT'. Then RL got in the way and I never published it. I dug it up just a while ago and made some more tweaks. Some scenarios are pretty much the same as before, but in general, changes to the dialog, characterizations, and plot details should make it different enough to seem fresh even to veterans.

This was my first encounter with WML so it's nothing spectacular on that front, I'm still learning. Some files are straight-up copied from HttT and it'd be more efficient if they were called from the core campaign. Some plot holes have been fixed but it's now more dialog-heavy; I tend to over-explain things. No balancing was done because I'm only one person and it's time-consuming; I was aiming for flavor more than gameplay. In general, I feel like I've made it harder overall. So there are flaws I'm aware of, but I think I improved the story and characterization. I'm particularly fond of how Li'sar turned out, but Konrad and Delfador also got some more depth.

Anyways, Heir to the Throne Revised is out on 1.12. server. If you don't mind a more story&character-oriented campaign, it might be your cup of tea. Most of the changes were made according to my personal tastes and might not be in line with what the developers intended for the fully polished HttT. Bigger changes start from 'The Princess of Wesnoth' scenario so the first part can be a bit same-y. Any feedback is welcome! :D

Konrad2
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Konrad2 » June 17th, 2018, 10:46 am

I'd like to point out that most people do not use Wesnoth 1.12. anymore, as 1.14. has been the stable version for over a month now. So yeah. It's unlikely you will get a lot of feedback.
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BTIsaac
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by BTIsaac » June 17th, 2018, 2:56 pm

Actually, i still use 1.12
Not sure if 1.14 ever gets ported to android, and a lot of the umc isn't ported so...

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zookeeper
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by zookeeper » June 18th, 2018, 7:49 pm

I took a look at the changes, and the story/dialogue ideas seem pretty solid. There's a lot of details to polish (typos, some of the language in general, some exchanges could perhaps be condensed), but overall I think it does improve some of the characterizations a lot.

Some quick thoughts:

- Asheviere's impedes ability is a pretty huge tomato surprise, and probably hard to navigate because the movement range highlighting won't reflect it. A tomato spawn of 6 Royal Guards within attack distance (nor the nagas) don't exactly make it more gentle, either.

- I'd argue that the "Your king will [...]" references from DM don't fit: one plays HttT before DM (or should, anyway) and the line in DM is a reference to HttT, so this is basically HttT making a reference to something in DM that is a reference to HttT. It's not and wouldn't be explained in HttT and would appear inexplicably cryptic to anyone who hasn't played DM. It is a good idea and used neatly, but in this case I think it's too confusing and not self-contained enough.

- Eleanora is an interesting addition. Perhaps her first appearance could be split between Ford of Abez and Dwarven Doors? I'm also not entirely sure whose side she is on. Her first appearance made it seem to me like she secretly hopes that Li'sar would indeed defy the orders, then on her second appearance she seems to be genuinely working against the rebels, and on her final appearance she just doesn't seem to care much either way. I'm inclined to suggest that she'd be a character who's secretly rooting for Li'sar and/or the rebels and gently trying to nudge them along but always maintaining plausible deniability, only abandoning Asheviere at the last moment.

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by WanderingHero » June 23rd, 2018, 9:34 am

I still use 1.12.5 so Im fine with this, though I should point out when i pick up the armour in scenario 2 I get a wml error and it disappears instead of whatever its supposed to do happening

Edit and on 1.12.6 Oh it adds 15hp to a unit but doesnt display a message

Caladbolg
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Caladbolg » June 23rd, 2018, 4:04 pm

Sorry for the late replies!
Konrad2 wrote:I'd like to point out that most people do not use Wesnoth 1.12. anymore, as 1.14. has been the stable version for over a month now. So yeah. It's unlikely you will get a lot of feedback.
I'm aware, but I don't have time to port it to 1.14 atm.
zookeeper wrote:- Asheviere's impedes ability is a pretty huge tomato surprise, and probably hard to navigate because the movement range highlighting won't reflect it. A tomato spawn of 6 Royal Guards within attack distance (nor the nagas) don't exactly make it more gentle, either.
Yeah, I really went overboard on the last scenario :lol: About Asheviere's ability, it seemed nice as an idea, but my wml is not good enough to make it do exactly what I wanted. I was thinking about replacing it with something more moderate but I'm not sure what would fit. As she is more of a mage in this rendition, I'd like her to have something special. I always thought she was pretty disappointing as the final boss in HttT. Royal guards are also a bit much and the whole balance is off, I'll need to redo this scenario. However, I'd like to keep nagas or at least have something similar to discourage the gryphon assassination strategy. Maybe some fiddling with unit placement could achieve it, but having nagas there helps break up the whole 'naga are always against humans' stereotype. Especially considering the mermen would be against Asheviere and could use the river, having water units would be advantageous for her, and she already has orcish mercenaries.
zookeeper wrote:- I'd argue that the "Your king will [...]" references from DM don't fit: one plays HttT before DM (or should, anyway) and the line in DM is a reference to HttT, so this is basically HttT making a reference to something in DM that is a reference to HttT. It's not and wouldn't be explained in HttT and would appear inexplicably cryptic to anyone who hasn't played DM. It is a good idea and used neatly, but in this case I think it's too confusing and not self-contained enough.
I agree. The more I look at it, the more it seems it just clutters the dialog. I think the tie-in with DM you put in the Underground Channels was pretty neat so I'll keep it and tone down the other references to it.
zookeeper wrote:- Eleanora is an interesting addition. Perhaps her first appearance could be split between Ford of Abez and Dwarven Doors? I'm also not entirely sure whose side she is on. Her first appearance made it seem to me like she secretly hopes that Li'sar would indeed defy the orders, then on her second appearance she seems to be genuinely working against the rebels, and on her final appearance she just doesn't seem to care much either way. I'm inclined to suggest that she'd be a character who's secretly rooting for Li'sar and/or the rebels and gently trying to nudge them along but always maintaining plausible deniability, only abandoning Asheviere at the last moment.
I had a lot of fun writing her :D I think that developing Li'sar's characterization requires more exploration of her relations with Ashieviere, but they don't come into contact until the last scenario. So I made Eleanora as a sort of a middle-man in their relationship. Her motives remain mysterious on purpose (some room for a possible campaign with her as a protagonist :whistle: ), but suffice it to say that she is on neither side and has her own motives ;)
WanderingHero wrote:I still use 1.12.5 so Im fine with this, though I should point out when i pick up the armour in scenario 2 I get a wml error and it disappears instead of whatever its supposed to do happening
Edit and on 1.12.6 Oh it adds 15hp to a unit but doesnt display a message
Uh oh.. that's not supposed to be there...:oops: I was testing out how objects work and I forgot to erase that thing :doh: Thanks for bringing it up, I'll remove it when I do the next version.

LienRag
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by LienRag » October 13th, 2018, 11:11 pm

Will there be a next version?
And BTW could you point to the scenarios that have not be modified (or the ones that have been, if there are too much of the former)?

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by LienRag » October 23rd, 2018, 4:07 pm

So you know that in the Valley of Death you put a two-turns duration?
And BTW the event with Elrian recalled lacked a "then" which caused it to never happen.

I had ideas for having the options at the end of Princess of Wesnoth mean something rather than bring defeat (I don't like the idea of defeat by bad choices outside of battle), but even if I have an idea to deal with Li'sar's execution, I guess it wouldn't fit the Wesnoth Chronology?

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Caladbolg » October 26th, 2018, 9:56 am

Sorry for the late response, life got in the way. The next version will mostly be a port for Wesnoth 1.14. I'll try to get it done within a week.
I think there should be a text file called 'changelog' in the HttTR files, all changes are detailed there.
I know about the Valley of Death blunder :oops:
I'd be interested in the ideas for how to handle the end of Princess of Wesnoth. I agree that defeat by choices is a bad design idea, but I need some explanation for why they're sparing her when it makes 0 sense.

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by LienRag » October 27th, 2018, 12:04 am

I'm working on my own version of HttT, I think I'll keep some of your variations but not all (I really disagree with your removal of the Storm Trident in the Ford of Abez, for example - and about the too obvious hint about Delfador's motives in Valley of Death).
I guess it's better to wait for your port?

My idea about the Princess of Wesnoth is to make three versions of a scenario to put before the Valley of Death, one difficult but rewarding (if they took her hostage), one VERY difficult (if they freed her) and one nearly impossible if they kill her.

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Caladbolg » October 27th, 2018, 5:35 pm

Sure, feel free to use any parts you'd like :)
I removed the trident from Ford of Abez because I don't think it's a substantial advantage, and having three tridents in a campaign that doesn't revolve around mermen is a bit much.

I've just finished going through the campaign to make sure there aren't any blunders like in the previous version, so hopefully there won't be any issues on that front. I'd still like to fiddle some more with the new stuff I added in the last scenario instead of Asheviere's ridiculous ZoC (now it's some necromancy stuff), and I'll probably replace orcs in the scenarios south of Abez with Dunefolk so we'll see how that goes. I'll release it in two or three days.
LienRag wrote:
October 27th, 2018, 12:04 am
My idea about the Princess of Wesnoth is to make three versions of a scenario to put before the Valley of Death, one difficult but rewarding (if they took her hostage), one VERY difficult (if they freed her) and one nearly impossible if they kill her.
Tbh, I had considered that option before, but I didn't implement it as it requires a bit more work and I was hoping to find a better way to deal with it. And continuing from the path where Li'sar is dead would also mean reworking all of the following scenarios (especially considering that I've made the dialog and Konrad's characterization pivot around Li'sar's).

I guess that for "Li'sar hostage" option I could leave things as they are, having it so that she escapes off-screen. Or maybe have a scenario playing as Li'sar where you need to escape from Konrad's camp, though that might have issues of its own.

For "Li'sar freed" option, I could make her return with massive reinforcements in some later scenario, maybe Gryphon Mountain. The issue here is that it would be a large and unexpected penalty for the player, and they'd have to go 2 scenarios back to rectify it (which also means replaying Valley of Death).

But the option where you kill Li'sar... I really don't know how to deal with it. However, I need it to be an option, because it makes a lot of sense. Maybe having Eleanora pop in to save Li'sar if you choose to kill her and then do the same thing as in "Li'sar freed"?

(This is all speculation for later, won't be in this release. In the long run, I'd like this choice to also affect the later conversations between Konrad and Li'sar: if you chose to kill her, she'd have some begrudging respect for Konrad, but she won't like him; if you chose to free her, she'd like him, but think of him as naive and incompetent; and if you took her hostage, she'd be as she is now.)

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octalot
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by octalot » October 27th, 2018, 6:54 pm

A reason to take her hostage: if the myth is that only the rightful heir can wield the sceptre, a public exhibition that Konrad can wield it while she is still alive would help his claim to the throne.

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by LienRag » October 28th, 2018, 7:57 pm

The main question is with the Wesnoth Chronology: wouldn't Li'sar's death make it moot?

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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Whiskeyjack » October 28th, 2018, 8:30 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
October 27th, 2018, 5:35 pm
I've just finished going through the campaign to make sure there aren't any blunders like in the previous version, so hopefully there won't be any issues on that front. I'd still like to fiddle some more with the new stuff I added in the last scenario instead of Asheviere's ridiculous ZoC (now it's some necromancy stuff), and I'll probably replace orcs in the scenarios south of Abez with Dunefolk so we'll see how that goes. I'll release it in two or three days.
I don't know what the current status of Dunefolk and lore is, but if I recall discussions correctly it was at least discussed that at this point the are not even known to Wesnoth (as in: not in their vicinity). Also, IIRC, there was more or less a consensus that they are in the southern wastes, which would make it quite weird for them to show up in Abez (wrong side of the kingdom - how'd they even get there!?).
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Re: HttT Revised

Post by Tad_Carlucci » October 28th, 2018, 9:37 pm

octalot wrote:
October 27th, 2018, 6:54 pm
A reason to take her hostage: if the myth is that only the rightful heir can wield the sceptre, a public exhibition that Konrad can wield it while she is still alive would help his claim to the throne.
That has always bothered me a bit. I considered actually making it so, if Konrad takes the Sceptre, he feels wrong and compelled to give it to Li`sar, but that didn't feel right, so I dropped the idea. Another option would be to change the later scenes. For example, if Konrad takes the Sceptre, Delfador's recitation of history should change to enforce the idea Konrad is the true heir, not Li`sar. Alternatively, when Delfador explains the history, someone should point out the contradictions and he should have a good answer ready to explain why Konrad could take the Sceptre but not be the true heir.
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