Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by The_Gnat » December 30th, 2018, 8:25 am

Just wanted to say very fun to play! Great job Vulpine! :D
Vulpine wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 4:06 am
I did not, however, shorten the map

If it is still too hard, I don't think I have any options left for improvement other than re-working the map, despite my reluctance.
That is interesting. I personally don't think it need be shortened, but I will play through again and see if it could be construed as too hard. :)
denispir wrote:
December 27th, 2018, 11:37 am
The campaign name sounds just wrong after playing: no question of elvish incursion or whatnot; maybe something like "enigmatic invasion".
Yes that is a good point. Overall I agree with your feedback about the campaign :) very good ideas!
denispir wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 11:43 pm
This scenario is the only totally weak one in wy view, actually full of incoherences about characters, action, situation, story, objective...
True, some of the text can certainly be confusing in that scenario. However, overall I think the campaign was well written and quite interesting! :D

denispir
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by denispir » December 31st, 2018, 1:52 pm

"However, overall I think the campaign was well written and quite interesting! :D"

Agreed about the campaign, I here only spoke of this very scenario.

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Vulpine
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by Vulpine » January 9th, 2019, 12:21 am

WARNING: Spoilers, and HUGE wall of text
Hey all! I've been away for quite some time, so I just saw your posts this morning. Hence the late reply.
denispir wrote:But the end was very frustrating for me: all right, it is a prologue, but I did not have the feeling of having accomplished anything clearly defined. Even for a prologue, I think there should be a quest, maybe one we discover along the first scenarios, and have to fulfill at the end.
This campaign was written while I was obsessed with non-happy endings, so that may have had something to do with it. I was also trying to build toward the main campaign (still not out yet. Longish story.) and keep a solid ending, yet leave the imagination open to build anticipation for the sequel. I think I failed.
The lack of accomplishment is a big problem in my mind, and something I had not considered.
denispir wrote:Same for the fight with the bandits (also, place a signpost to be reached).
:shock: :oops: Oops! I'll put a marker there ASAP.
denispir wrote:...Side note : all of our 4 heroes have 1 movement cost in forest, contrary to the stats of their types (except indeed for Kaitlin). This should be said, and at best somehow explained & justified by the story. Because indeed they will outrun everyone else except for elves, especially in this very scenario....

...Well, as another player has noted, with 2 characters there is no much room for tactics ;-) ...

On my first 3 trials, I first tried to run straight ahead, then zigzag, then at the bottom of the map. Each time, the wolf riders caught me on the turn after the elven rider fell on me, and one or the other character was killed. On my 4th trial, I ran at the top of the map, and I had one turn more after meeting the elven rider. Cannot explain that, was just so. This made the difference because Wark levelled up (or was close to) and thus could endure most of the remaining damage. But Kaitlin was still nearly dead. For any reason, all of those 4 ennemies only attack her when they can : this seems logical, since it is a raid after her, but this tactical consequence, if it is actually so, should be somehow suggested (not directly said) by dialogues or whatnot.
The forest movement thingy is indeed displayed in the unit descriptions. I do agree that I should include my explanation though. That was poor writing on my part.

2 characters was an unfortunate number for me to start with :cry:

The enemies all attacking Kaitlin was not intentional :(

Yeah, this first scenario is a real pain for everybody. I've got the beginning of an idea for a replacement map.
denispir wrote:On the scenario where we kill Bragh (4th?) (played on medium difficulty) :
This scenario is the only totally weak one in wy view, actually full of incoherences about characters, action, situation, story, objective...

Kaitlin knows or may know Bragh better, since they seem to come from the same area of the South. I would have her occasionnaly spread bits of information about him in previous scenarios : Bragh may be a long-time respected and recpectful tribe leader, to the point of being one of the rare ones with whom elves could have exchanges. This would better explain his sudden and full side changing. (It would also better clarify what happens with this mysterious female character, of whom I have forgotten the name.)
Yar, there was really no indication beforehand that he was unhappy with his lot. If I recall correctly, my idea was that he was a mercenary leader, a bit like the captain from Firefly, if you've ever seen that. He's fiercely devoted to his crew. So when Dela turns his crew against him, he's ready to kill her, but can't, so bides his time. I'll try to include some build-up in at least the first scenario.
denispir wrote:I would have the situation, action, and objective run so : the heroes would have to knock out (finish killing) Bragh to kidnap him. After what a brief dialog would give him the opportunity to tell us what he already does (altough better, since we would already understand the story better).
I like that idea!
denispir wrote:Presently, we just need to finish killing him, and nothing prevents us to do so, moreover he is nearly dead and we have 3 characters, so the turn limit may as well be 3. When I tried, I first sneaked around their camp at a distance (just beyond their reach), but found no "hole" to sneak in. Because of the turn limit approaching, I finally tried just to rush to him (from the west, since I had made a full half turn already)... and just won doing so, totally unexpectedly ! No reason, no interest, no justification, no consistence, no challenge.
Hmm :hmm: The rushing tactic is (if memory serves me right) no harder than any other method. I don't remember how I had been planning on addressing that particular issue.
Also, can you post a replay for me? I don't remember if I changed some scenarios without uploading them to the server. It's been that long since I've touched this project, so I may be seeing some things different than what you're seeing.
denispir wrote:The ennemy camp may be organised so : a group of ennemies around a campfire, Bragh at a distance under a big tree (because he is heavily wounded), and numerous sentinels all around. We would have to kill isolated sentinels, which is possible because we have a longer reach in forest, then sneak into the camp to hit Bragh while remaining out of reach of the main group, finally flee with him (say, for 3 turns or until the end of turns). Sentinels may be more and closer on our initial side (east), less and more distant from one another on the other side. All in all a turn limit of 12 or 15 sounds reasonable.

What do you think ?
I think the fleeing part will be too hard for me, but the rest is essentially what I was trying to do, only without the main group. However I did it poorly, and on a much smaller scale. I think a re-working of this scenario is due.
denispir wrote:A few more notes :

Often ennemy sides have several units of same types, especially of the fencer line, which is troubling for me.
And why does the ennemy have units of so diverse "races", including from the Khalifate !?
To answer both in one sentence, I tried to mix up the unit list as much as I could.
But there actually was a reason I added all those races. Bragh commands a band of mercenaries, and he doesn't care where they're from, basically. Since they're from the south, I allowed myself to add the khalifate (er, Dunefolk now...), despite them probably being quite a bit farther south. That's another something I hadn't quite thought through.
denispir wrote: Scenario 2 Raid on Xeria: was pretty enjoyable (both times I played), but there are possible improvements I guess, see separate post.
Scenario 4 Bandits: I won by killing the bandit leader (the main ennemy was already dead indeed), while the objective only tells to leave on our way back. Also, when not killing the bandit, since only a single unit much reach the way back, the 3 other heroes can go on fighting for fun and XP (what I did and the way I killed the bandit leader).
Scenario 5 Dragon: Killing the (first) dragon is too easy, especially with 2 backstab units, not to mention poison, and makes for a scenario without interest. On the other hand any hero may die (Bragh, who has least HPs, nearly died on a single attack, but since the dragon died on next turn...). Maybe add an approach toward a strange thing (noise, smell, tracks), with a couple drakes on the way, thus preparing next battle, then only find the dragon. Also, this is a good opportunity to level up either Bragh or Mar in one go...
Final battle: it seems that when I attack the (second) dragon, and only then, all ally units who can attack it. It is thus surrounded by 6 units in my case and indeed quickly dies. We do not really (have to) fight drakes. Maybe have the dragon first stand further, then only approach later. This would require a balance for our forces to be able to first overcome the drakes alone and kill half of them, before the dragon starts to "play".
In the "Bandits" scenario, I added a note that says "If everybody is dead, there will be no need to run after acquiring the gem...". I'm not sure if your version has that note though. It could be one of those things I added to my own version, but not to the server.

The "Dragon" scenario is indeed a bit iffy. You are dealing with a dragon, after all. I regret placing it where I did, as Bragh isn't likely to be very tough at this point. But your idea is a good one. I'll see if I can implement that.

The final battle... was a bit of a pain, to be honest. But I did implement unlimited health potions for the drake leader, because he had to survive for the epilogue to make any sense. That was kind of fun :) The dragon was a real hassle. It would never comply with my coding, always doing as it chose, rather than what I wished it to do. Your ally's behavior is interesting. I don't think it's a bug in my files because as far as I know, I did not retain any AI-altering code.
Trying again to influence the Dragon's behavior will go on my to-do list.
denispir wrote:Overall, I enjoyed that campaign very much. I played it through (twice now) just moving forward without major annoyance or problems. Actually, critics only pop up in my mind when there is a good basis... The general difficulty seems balanced for a game of intermediate level on medium difficulty. Players may have to replay once or twice some scenarios before finding correct tactics, which is fine.

I repeat that the end is frustrating for me, since I do not have the impression of having achieved some goal or quest.

The campaign name sounds just wrong after playing: no question of elvish incursion or whatnot; maybe something like "enigmatic invasion".
The ending will be one of my priorities. As the author, I should be leaving players with a sense of completion at the end, and as a prologue, a sense of anticipation. I'm not sure what I can do to make that so, but I'll think on it and work something out.

The name is warranted IMO. Dela's an elf. Her tribe is taking over all the other elvish tribes, and even drakes, orcs, and humans. She's moving north in a large-scale incursion.
Finally: What about the main campaign (1 year after) ?
Well, believe it or not, I had actually been working slowly at it until the start of summer, which I spent in Alaska. And the Wesnothian priority plummeted until this morning when I decided to browse the forums and see what I missed.
denispir wrote:Scenario 2 Raid on Xeria:
The town gate would be more trouble than it's worth, IMO. I like the idea, but I don't feel up to the job at this point in time.

The ally units jumping into battle is indeed a problem. I could probably fix it with a turn_start event. (Actually, there was some sort of tag that allowed me to set how careful the ai was. I'll have to check that out.)

The allied forces charging right behind the cavalry could possibly be done. I don't remember the code well enough to say for certain though. I don't think I've played with the aggression levels yet.

I gave Bragh some extra gold in the same turn event that Wark comes back. I could add some dialogue from Bragh telling his 'reserve' troops to come to his aid.
denispir & The_Gnat respectively wrote:Overall, I enjoyed that campaign very much. I played it through (twice now) just moving forward without major annoyance or problems. Actually, critics only pop up in my mind when there is a good basis... The general difficulty seems balanced for a game of intermediate level on medium difficulty. Players may have to replay once or twice some scenarios before finding correct tactics, which is fine.
---------
Just wanted to say very fun to play! Great job Vulpine! :D
Thank you! I appreciate that you enjoyed it, and that you took the time to point out to me how its flaws could be improved. This post is running a bit long ( :whistle: ) so I'll try to wrap it up quickly. (assuming you made it this far).

The main campaign is probably going to take a lot of time to complete, now that I think about it. I scrapped my plot multiple times, and am still unhappy with it. A few of the maps had to be completely re-hauled as well, up to three or four times for some. And don't even mention the AMLAs! Talk about headaches :D
So I'll work on this one for a while to polish it and relearn my WML, and hopefully all goes well.
Too Long; Didn't Read:
Lotsa issues I need to address in both the prologue and the main campaign.
Main campaign on hold while I work on this.
Thanks for playing!
One foot in my mouth, and one in the grave; that's the way I like it, and that's the way it'll stay.
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Also the author of Elvish Incursion, a short little prologue.
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denispir
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by denispir » January 9th, 2019, 9:30 am

Holà @Vulpine,

Pleased to see you back :). I wanted to have a look at maps and scenarios to possibly contribute modifs, but could not find it anymore. I may thus have passed to Wesnoth 1.14 since I played and "feedbacked", version for which there is no Elvish Incursion (also not on the add-on server). If I'm right and you ever port it, please let me know...

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Vulpine
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by Vulpine » January 18th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Alrighty, so after some work I got a bunch of the stuff on the to-do list done. I have not tested extensively, nor ported to 1.14 (which should also be on my to-do list).

I did not make any game-play changes to scenario 4, as that would require as much time as re-hauling scenario 1 (or more, even). That's still on my to-do list for when I've got more time and the inclination. As is Scenario 6's lone dragon issue.
One foot in my mouth, and one in the grave; that's the way I like it, and that's the way it'll stay.
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Also the author of Elvish Incursion, a short little prologue.
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by Vulpine » January 21st, 2019, 11:53 pm

The prologue has been released on BfW V1.14 and seems to work just fine. There's a WML error on scenario 3, but it doesn't seem to affect gameplay.
One foot in my mouth, and one in the grave; that's the way I like it, and that's the way it'll stay.
[shameless_advertising]
Also the author of Elvish Incursion, a short little prologue.
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Sadaharu
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by Sadaharu » January 26th, 2019, 5:12 am

I've just seen EI is up on BfW 1.14, I'll have to test it. It's nice to see you back.

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Escanor
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by Escanor » February 24th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Played your campaing and I really liked it :D. I hope we get the full story sometime in the future.
"as a god of demons...how does it feel to be looked down upon by a human?" --Escanor

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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by white_haired_uncle » April 27th, 2019, 11:42 pm

Played on easy. I would not call it trivial for one simple reason -- there are a number of units which can kill one of your heroes in one turn. And even if they're not quite killed, because of the lack of villages they are pretty much knocked out of the rest of the scenario. It was pretty easy, if I restarted the turn whenever I hit some terrible luck.

ammassed > amassed
lady Kaitlan > Lady Kaitlan
attepmts > attempts
can not > cannot
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

rin
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Re: Elvish Incursion: A Prologue

Post by rin » July 27th, 2019, 4:46 am

Fun campaign looking forward to the sequel ^^

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