The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

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WackoJacko
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WackoJacko »

mattsc wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 3:35 pm
Yeah ... I let it play through the AI turn >10 times and never got the error. The problem is that there's a lot of randomness involved there (which card is drawn etc. and different outcomes of AI moves), so it's going to be hard to reproduce this. I'll have another look later if I see something either in the harm_unit code or in your add-on that looks "suspicious", but so far I didn't find anything. (It's pretty clear what the error message means, but I didn't see anything so far that looks like it would cause this to happen.)
I don't have any save lefts unfortunately however I remember that weather conditions (I think rain) were in effect, a few units were changed into walking corpses and two new units were added. No idea if this helps, just thought I would mention it. I also think the rabbit was active and on my side (possible theory; the rabbit was changed into a walking corpse and this isn't allowed?)

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WhiteWolf
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

WackoJacko wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 3:08 pm
If you check your video, you told your ally to defend position 19,7 however when you checked your instructions it said it was defending 22,14 which was the unit you clicked on originally (the archer standing on their own). Which is exactly what I said in my earlier message ;)
So this again shows everyone how observant a person I am, and how I always think before I talk... :doh: I thought you meant that the second menu item is not showing up and you are unable to select any other coordinates, I don't know how to put it.. anyway, I misunderstood again and didn't even think to check if the right coordinates are saved. I don't yet know if this is just an interface bug which receives wrong data, or wrong coordinates are sent to the AI as well, but I'll debug it.
Something about an open scenario side quest is mentioned. "confronting an evil that lurks within ourselves" is mentioned too. When I decline to do it, a "gallows and a poor boy" is mentioned.
Oh, I checked and I indeed forgot to re-enable the "dev area barrier" if you are talking to him for the second time, before releasing 1.3.0 (I was also experimenting with that wip quest and it was reenabled for development time). Gonna be fixed in the next version.
I don't suggest starting it, I don't remember where I left off, it either leads to an infinite loop of dialogue choices, or to instant defeat or a victory with no next scenario ;)
One of my witches in S10 (she drank the potion) gets repoisoned if I reload a turn
Number one of the known issues on the front page :) It's bugging all over the place, but I didn't remove it because I intend to fix it some time, I just have no idea why it's happening. It started this behavior with the porting to 1.14, and I don't yet know why. But it will disappear for good at the end of the scenario, so it won't be a problem for further gameplay, it's just one map.
mattsc wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 3:35 pm
Yeah ... I let it play through the AI turn >10 times and never got the error. The problem is that there's a lot of randomness involved there (which card is drawn etc. and different outcomes of AI moves), so it's going to be hard to reproduce this. I'll have another look later if I see something either in the harm_unit code or in your add-on that looks "suspicious", but so far I didn't find anything. (It's pretty clear what the error message means, but I didn't see anything so far that looks like it would cause this to happen.)
WackoJacko wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 3:50 pm
I don't have any save lefts unfortunately however I remember that weather conditions (I think rain) were in effect, a few units were changed into walking corpses and two new units were added. No idea if this helps, just thought I would mention it. I also think the rabbit was active and on my side (possible theory; the rabbit was changed into a walking corpse and this isn't allowed?)
The rabbit is a new addition since the issue first presented itself. The problem definitely seems to lie in weather cards. It only showed itself with rain so far, but since they all work with the same mechanism, I'm guessing that fog and snow are prone to this too. Hasn't been observed yet, though.
What happens is that weather damages certain units (above or below their 50% HP and not in villages) on every turn refresh, and when this happens with the [harm_unit], something goes wrong.
Sorry that I didn't mention this - you can manually debug card draws, so you can load the save, draw rain manually and then hope that the AI will position its units so that the mysterious requirements for the bug to appear all match and it happens. The command in debug is fire whess_rain. (same for _fog, _snow)
Ravana said something about a status check in [harm_unit], that could possibly invalidate something, I don't remember, it's in the linked topic. So it may even be possible, that a special combination of card draws and then rain, and then a specific unit position is needed.
You can call the poison card with fire whess_ale to experiment with this, and the full list of possible cards are in the spoiler. However, I tried these back in the day, and still couldn't reproduce it, not once :doh: WackoJacko's case is the second time this thing shows up.
cardlist:


EDIT: There was indeed a logical blunder in the defend location command, and the AI got the bad parameters as well. But it's gonna be fixed in the next version :)
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WackoJacko
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WackoJacko »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 5:56 pm
WackoJacko wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 3:08 pm
One of my witches in S10 (she drank the potion) gets repoisoned if I reload a turn
Number one of the known issues on the front page :) It's bugging all over the place, but I didn't remove it because I intend to fix it some time, I just have no idea why it's happening. It started this behavior with the porting to 1.14, and I don't yet know why. But it will disappear for good at the end of the scenario, so it won't be a problem for further gameplay, it's just one map.
WhiteWolf wrote:
December 21st, 2016, 11:48 pm
Known issues:
Was just looking at your known issues and I didn't see it. Sorry about reposting the Whess error, didn't realise it had been mentioned :oops:

EDIT
S12 Reed
Spoiler:
EDIT 2:
Epic/Legendary enemies
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
EDIT 3:
Dialogue between S12 and S13
Spoiler:

EDIT 4:
Whess game
When the walking corpse card effect happens, you can have a unit with more than max xp. eg/ my enemy had a walking corpse with 25/24 xp

EDIT 5:
Dialogue S13
Spoiler:

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

WackoJacko wrote:
January 18th, 2020, 2:44 am
Was just looking at your known issues and I didn't see it. Sorry about reposting the Whess error, didn't realise it had been mentioned :oops:
Quite on the contrary, please do report known issues as well, because it reminds me that they are still there, and maybe a new case can shed some new light on them, which could help to solve it. It'd be "great" if the Whess issue popped up a couple more times so that we could establish a connection as to why it's happening.
I was just commenting that they are known issues and not something newly introduced :)
S12 Reed
Spoiler:
Oops, yes that needs a rewrite in case Dayton is the second unit.
Epic/Legendary enemies
Spoiler:
Wow. I might just leave that in and add a comment from one of the others about how drunk he must be to talk such nonsense :lol:
Spoiler:
Yes, it should decrease it. There used to be an issue where this was bugged, but I was under the impression that was fixed now. I checked and it seems to work here. Started a save from 96% intox, defeated the Headless Knight and it is now at 86%. (The amount of reduction depends on the difficulty, this on hard). Note that the reduction is applied when the epic enemy is killed, and not when it is spawned.
If you're sure the reducing didn't happen, could you please attach a replay?

Dialogue between S12 and S13
Spoiler:
Got it :) Indeed, Isurdiel means that the pain in the back by Dayton is supposed to feel long, so "whole decade" is what he should say. (I used "mere" because I must have been formalizing the sentence in Hungarian in my head, and that is the adjective you'd use in an exclamation like this. Stupid reverse thinking :D )

When the walking corpse card effect happens, you can have a unit with more than max xp. eg/ my enemy had a walking corpse with 25/24 xp
I'll look into it.
EDIT: Yeah, unit transformation needs an extra experience check, fixed that.
Dialogue S13
Spoiler:
Done :)
Author of the Underness Series, consisting of V parts: The Desolation of Karlag, The Blind Sentinel, The Stone of the North, The Invasion Of The Western Cavalry, Fingerbone of Destiny
Standalone works: The Ravagers - now for 1.14, with new bugs!

Konrad2
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by Konrad2 »

TID 1
Tbh, I don't like that the wall you can build is made of dwarvish castles. Considering how little I had to pay for it, I'd expect it to be an encampment castlewall. This is a new town with not much resources and they can just put down some dwarvish fortifications? ._.

(FTR, I'm on my 4th attempt at beating this scenario on the nightmare level. It's not easy. :()

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WhiteWolf
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

Konrad2 wrote:
January 19th, 2020, 11:03 am
TID 1
Tbh, I don't like that the wall you can build is made of dwarvish castles. Considering how little I had to pay for it, I'd expect it to be an encampment castlewall. This is a new town with not much resources and they can just put down some dwarvish fortifications? ._.
Hmm. Gameplay-wise they offer the same stats though. And I like how the dwarvish castles look around the town, so I don't want to plainly switch to palisade. You could consider a level 1 (palisade) and then a level 2 (dwarvish castle) upgrade system, but I'm not sure it would make much sense, because it's purely an aesthetic upgrade.
Or maybe, because the ultimate objective here is to build a town, the palisade-then-castle upgrade could still be implemented, and it should be a scenario objective to build the stone wall? Then the upgrades make sense, on level 1 you are already getting protection, and level 2 is a win condition. Stone walls are kinda parts of fortified towns, so it makes sense story-wise, however there are already lots of criteria for victory, I'm not sure if adding another would contribute to the scenario's fun-factor. What's your opinion?
(FTR, I'm on my 4th attempt at beating this scenario on the nightmare level. It's not easy. :()
I used my standard technique - I played through on hard and set that to a level where I can just about beat it with some tries. And then set nightmare to harder, but didn't play it. Do you think it's unbeatable, or just very very hard?
Author of the Underness Series, consisting of V parts: The Desolation of Karlag, The Blind Sentinel, The Stone of the North, The Invasion Of The Western Cavalry, Fingerbone of Destiny
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by Konrad2 »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 19th, 2020, 1:23 pm
Hmm. Gameplay-wise they offer the same stats though. And I like how the dwarvish castles look around the town, so I don't want to plainly switch to palisade. You could consider a level 1 (palisade) and then a level 2 (dwarvish castle) upgrade system, but I'm not sure it would make much sense, because it's purely an aesthetic upgrade.
Or maybe, because the ultimate objective here is to build a town, the palisade-then-castle upgrade could still be implemented, and it should be a scenario objective to build the stone wall? Then the upgrades make sense, on level 1 you are already getting protection, and level 2 is a win condition. Stone walls are kinda parts of fortified towns, so it makes sense story-wise, however there are already lots of criteria for victory, I'm not sure if adding another would contribute to the scenario's fun-factor. What's your opinion?
Personally I'd like that. If you implement it however, I suggest that you make the level 2 wall something that actually spans the whole town, that way my unit won't get hindered as much by pesky mountains when they rush from one threat to the next.
How about just implementing the lvl 2 wall for Easy - Hard, and making it a win condition on nightmare?
I used my standard technique - I played through on hard and set that to a level where I can just about beat it with some tries. And then set nightmare to harder, but didn't play it. Do you think it's unbeatable, or just very very hard?
Just very very hard. It's not something beatable on the first try at least. You have to get things just right. Or be very good at theorycrafting. On my previous attempts I underestimated just how much of an issue the elves would be. Or how important the water pump is. What I need to build. How to balance it all. And that I really need to get the treasure as soon as possible, so I should send my manager.
No idea though if this attempt is going to work. Food might be an issue this time. Housing too.

As a side note, this green symbol is likely some affirmative sign. But it doesn't exactly work, as you can see. (Windows 10 btw.)
sign.png
EDIT:
The Elves just plundered my Wood! Oh no. Luckily I had 0 Wood left. Now I have retaken the storehouse. Looks like the Elves are actually nice people? They left me 9 Wood. :D

EDIT 2:
There goes my 4th attempt. I tried really hard. :( Maybe things would have gone better if I had build the railway earlier. Maybe if I had managed to bloock the cheap valley. Maybe.
I'll try again some other day or week.
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WhiteWolf
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

Konrad2 wrote:
January 19th, 2020, 2:06 pm
Personally I'd like that. If you implement it however, I suggest that you make the level 2 wall something that actually spans the whole town, that way my unit won't get hindered as much by pesky mountains when they rush from one threat to the next.
How about just implementing the lvl 2 wall for Easy - Hard, and making it a win condition on nightmare?
Sounds plausible, OK, I'll see what I can do :)
Just very very hard. It's not something beatable on the first try at least. You have to get things just right. Or be very good at theorycrafting. On my previous attempts I underestimated just how much of an issue the elves would be. Or how important the water pump is. What I need to build. How to balance it all. And that I really need to get the treasure as soon as possible, so I should send my manager.
No idea though if this attempt is going to work. Food might be an issue this time. Housing too.
Yeah, there are lots of variable at work. Water pump is indeed probably the most important, then forge, storage, houses, military, probably in this order. On hard I didn't need to collect the hidden treasure.
As a side note, this green symbol is likely some affirmative sign. But it doesn't exactly work, as you can see. (Windows 10 btw.)
sign.png
First the lime color, now this, don't we all love the Windows characterset. I'll check if looks like that on my Windows as well, and find something else that shows up properly then. (it's supposed to be a green tick).
The Elves just plundered my Wood! Oh no. Luckily I had 0 Wood left. Now I have retaken the storehouse. Looks like the Elves are actually nice people? They left me 9 Wood. :D
No, that sounds more like a bug ;) Can I ask for a replay if you have it?
There goes my 4th attempt. I tried really hard. :( Maybe things would have gone better if I had build the railway earlier. Maybe if I had managed to bloock the cheap valley. Maybe.
I'll try again some other day or week.
On hard, I didn't block the valleys early on, instead I used them as an XP farm for my units until the elves arrived, and blocked it only when the elves started to get serious.
Author of the Underness Series, consisting of V parts: The Desolation of Karlag, The Blind Sentinel, The Stone of the North, The Invasion Of The Western Cavalry, Fingerbone of Destiny
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WackoJacko
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WackoJacko »

WackoJacko wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 5:27 pm
WhiteWolf wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 4:54 pm
When you finished the sidequest, I'd really like to hear your opinion on
  • the overall quality of the story
  • the balance and difficulty of the scenarios (was it adequate and in check with your selected difficulty)
  • the fun factor of the scenarios (were the objectives fun to complete or were they tedious or boring)
  • the flavor and quality of dialogues and characters, is their personality considerably done or do any of them feel a little empty or lacking character
I'm asking because this is the newest addition, finished just a few weeks ago, and it has not been playtested as much as the main story or the other sidequests, and I'm sure there's room for improvement :) Thanks!
Will add my thoughts on Scenarios 2&3 tomorrow, with scenario 4 being dialogue only
Just realised I hadn't done this :lol:

Scenario 2
Spoiler:
Scenario 3
Spoiler:
Character-wise:
The scout is a little weird, for some reason he is really important and I couldn't see any reason for this story wise. Might be able to justify this by making him a relative of the main character, a nephew perhaps?

I like how vitality comes into effect at the end of a turn instead of the start

EDIT:
S14
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
EDIT 2:
I'm not sure if I've posted this before or not (apologies if I have). The ability Second Wind stops damage from being taken on the first hit, however if the hit includes a special (poison, slow, savage weapon, etc) then the special is still applied. Not sure if this is intended

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by Konrad2 »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 19th, 2020, 10:51 pm
No, that sounds more like a bug ;) Can I ask for a replay if you have it?
In fact I did already give you the replay for it. (To be exact I gave a save from the point after I died, and the replay is viewable by selecting the save and watch the embedded replay.)
On hard, I didn't block the valleys early on, instead I used them as an XP farm for my units until the elves arrived, and blocked it only when the elves started to get serious.
The elves are always serious on nightmare. You'll see in the replay.

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by BTIsaac »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 18th, 2020, 5:24 pm
Spoiler:
Wow. I might just leave that in and add a comment from one of the others about how drunk he must be to talk such nonsense :lol:
[/quote]

I remember that one. I'm almost certain that this was intentional.

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by mattsc »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 17th, 2020, 5:56 pm
What happens is that weather damages certain units (above or below their 50% HP and not in villages) on every turn refresh, and when this happens with the [harm_unit], something goes wrong.
Sorry that I didn't mention this - you can manually debug card draws, so you can load the save, draw rain manually and then hope that the AI will position its units so that the mysterious requirements for the bug to appear all match and it happens. The command in debug is fire whess_rain. (same for _fog, _snow)
Ravana said something about a status check in [harm_unit], that could possibly invalidate something, I don't remember, it's in the linked topic. So it may even be possible, that a special combination of card draws and then rain, and then a specific unit position is needed.
You can call the poison card with fire whess_ale to experiment with this, and the full list of possible cards are in the spoiler. However, I tried these back in the day, and still couldn't reproduce it, not once :doh: WackoJacko's case is the second time this thing shows up.
cardlist:
Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I have not been able to reproduce it either. I've been digging around the code and playing around with the save quite a bit and I cannot find a way to make it happen; or see anything wrong with either the scenario or the [harm_unit] code. So, yeah, it looks like it probably needs several things to come together in a very specific way (and I agree with the guesses as to what probably happens in the other thread). Unless we can find a way to reproduce it (have a replay of it happening, ideally), I don't know what else to do. :(

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

WackoJacko wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:26 am

Scenario 2
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'm still thinking about how to better intertwine your units with the time of day cycle. I'll move the keep closer, since dwarves are slow, the crossing could indeed take too long.
WackoJacko wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:26 am
Scenario 3
Spoiler:
That was quite intentional though, or at least that is how I could complete that map... :whistle:
Character-wise:
The scout is a little weird, for some reason he is really important and I couldn't see any reason for this story wise. Might be able to justify this by making him a relative of the main character, a nephew perhaps?
Good idea, though I didn't want to include him for the first map, but I guess I could add a comment along the lines of "my nephew joined us in a few fortnights". Bland, I admit, but still better than what we have now.
His existence in story is justified by...:

WackoJacko wrote: S14
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Done, I'll check on the naga-saurian dialogue :)

WackoJacko wrote: I'm not sure if I've posted this before or not (apologies if I have). The ability Second Wind stops damage from being taken on the first hit, however if the hit includes a special (poison, slow, savage weapon, etc) then the special is still applied. Not sure if this is intended
Intended, as in there is not much to do against it. Statuses would be damn complicated to block. I mean it sure is easy to remove them once applied, but here that's not what you need (that's the regenerate ability), you have to explicitly prevent a (for example) poison attack from giving the poison in the first place, and I don't really know to do that. Even if I did, it should be universal then for all statuses including the custom ones like stunned or dazed, ehh... no. Easier to define second wind so that it only blocks the damage, statuses still go through it.

Konrad2 wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 10:06 am
In fact I did already give you the replay for it. (To be exact I gave a save from the point after I died, and the replay is viewable by selecting the save and watch the embedded replay.)
Oh, OK I, was going to say isn't that a turn save, but so I just realized you can generate replays from them. I'll make sure to check it then :)
BTIsaac wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 2:08 pm
I remember that one. I'm almost certain that this was intentional.
No, it was a lazy ctr+c ctrl+v from my part :D But it indeed makes sense if the others give a witty comment to it.
mattsc wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 2:42 pm
Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I have not been able to reproduce it either. I've been digging around the code and playing around with the save quite a bit and I cannot find a way to make it happen; or see anything wrong with either the scenario or the [harm_unit] code. So, yeah, it looks like it probably needs several things to come together in a very specific way (and I agree with the guesses as to what probably happens in the other thread). Unless we can find a way to reproduce it (have a replay of it happening, ideally), I don't know what else to do. :(
Well, we can wait. If it ever pops up for me again, I'll make sure to generate a replay, but until then that's it again, I guess :(
Author of the Underness Series, consisting of V parts: The Desolation of Karlag, The Blind Sentinel, The Stone of the North, The Invasion Of The Western Cavalry, Fingerbone of Destiny
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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WackoJacko »

WhiteWolf wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 11:15 am
WackoJacko wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:26 am
I'm not sure if I've posted this before or not (apologies if I have). The ability Second Wind stops damage from being taken on the first hit, however if the hit includes a special (poison, slow, savage weapon, etc) then the special is still applied. Not sure if this is intended
Intended, as in there is not much to do against it. Statuses would be damn complicated to block. I mean it sure is easy to remove them once applied, but here that's not what you need (that's the regenerate ability), you have to explicitly prevent a (for example) poison attack from giving the poison in the first place, and I don't really know to do that. Even if I did, it should be universal then for all statuses including the custom ones like stunned or dazed, ehh... no. Easier to define second wind so that it only blocks the damage, statuses still go through it.
No problem, just making sure you're aware of it.

Typos
S15:
Tharos: thread with caution! --> tread with caution Unless you mean "thread your way through carefully!"
Gallien: Golemnship -->Golemship

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Re: The Ravagers 1.3 - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.14 [Feedback and development]

Post by WhiteWolf »

WackoJacko wrote:
January 21st, 2020, 12:48 pm
S15:
Tharos: thread with caution! --> tread with caution Unless you mean "thread your way through carefully!"
Gallien: Golemnship -->Golemship
Hmm, I am a little bit unsure now, doesn't thread carefully mean to speak with care so as not to offend anyone? I mean to say here to move/step with caution so as not to get into traps, which one would that be?

In the meantime I uploaded 1.3.3, with some of the changes, but nothing very new or very important. (the point of the snapshot is actually a small update to the Hungarian translation.)
However, now there are elvish voiceover lines included, courtesy of theuncertainman ;)
1.3.3:
Author of the Underness Series, consisting of V parts: The Desolation of Karlag, The Blind Sentinel, The Stone of the North, The Invasion Of The Western Cavalry, Fingerbone of Destiny
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