The Ravagers - SP campaign for Wesnoth 1.16 [Feedback and development]

[WackoJacko]

Hey WhiteWolf,
When playing as a Longbowman and levelling our hero for the first time, we receive the marksmen trait for the heavy longbow but we already have eagle eye. As both are only active when used offensively, it seems kinda redundant.

EDIT: Some text after scenario three is a little strange:
"...and calamity inside Totalomir's forces was something we couldn't allow to miss." May I suggest "and the opportunity to wreak havoc within Totalomir's forces wasn't something we could allow to pass"?

EDIT 2:
S4

Spoiler:

(second part)

[WhiteWolf]

Dwellings are used to house your untits -> units
for example reinforecements -> reinforcements
can already tase tonight's -> taste

Fixed



Hello WackoJacko,

When playing as a Longbowman and levelling our hero for the first time, we receive the marksmen trait for the heavy longbow but we already have eagle eye. As both are only active when used offensively, it seems kinda redundant.

Yes, it's a little redundant since eagle eye is better in every aspect. The problem is that the marksman comes with the unit type and eagle eye comes as a special addition, and thus forcibly and reliably removing the marksman is not that simple. Can be done surely, I just didn't look into it yet because it's not a 2 minutes only task But I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Some text after scenario three is a little strange:
"...and calamity inside Totalomir's forces was something we couldn't allow to miss." May I suggest "and the opportunity to wreak havoc within Totalomir's forces wasn't something we could allow to pass"?

Wreaking havoc sounds better, but unless I'm mistaken, allow to pass in the context of "wasn't something we could allow to pass" means "wasn't something we could allow to happen", and you want the exact opposite. So I'd put it as "and we couldn't afford to miss out on the opportunity to wreak havoc within Totalomir's forces".

EDIT 2:
S4

Spoiler:

(second part)

Screen Shot 2020-01-10 at 2.10.13 pm.png

That's strange, how did that happen... hmm... did this happen so that you attacked Lurm's favourite with Dayton's eagle eye weapon, the special triggered (orange extra damage was dealt), and then within the same attack the orc was defeated, and the map transition happened?
Because then I can imagine that the map transition to part 2 messed up the special's attack end events to deal out due XP. So if I'm correct you've only missed out on some XP for Dayton and nothing serious happened (I hope).
If this is not when and how this message showed up, then please attach a replay of the scenario, because I need to know which unit attacked which and what happened during that attack.

[WackoJacko]

When playing as a Longbowman and levelling our hero for the first time, we receive the marksmen trait for the heavy longbow but we already have eagle eye. As both are only active when used offensively, it seems kinda redundant.

Yes, it's a little redundant since eagle eye is better in every aspect. The problem is that the marksman comes with the unit type and eagle eye comes as a special addition, and thus forcibly and reliably removing the marksman is not that simple. Can be done surely, I just didn't look into it yet because it's not a 2 minutes only task But I'll see what I can do.

No problem, if its not an easy fix then it doesn't matter, just thought that I would bring it to your attention.

EDIT: Some text after scenario three is a little strange:
"...and calamity inside Totalomir's forces was something we couldn't allow to miss." May I suggest "and the opportunity to wreak havoc within Totalomir's forces wasn't something we could allow to pass"?

Wreaking havoc sounds better, but unless I'm mistaken, allow to pass in the context of "wasn't something we could allow to pass" means "wasn't something we could allow to happen", and you want the exact opposite. So I'd put it as "and we couldn't afford to miss out on the opportunity to wreak havoc within Totalomir's forces".

Both work well and as the author you can certainly do what you like
To explain mine, "opportunity to wreak havoc" is the thing. "Something we could allow to pass" means we don't act on the thing, adding in the "wasn't" creates another negative which cancels out with the don't, meaning we act on the thing.
Sounds weird I know (probably because its an idiom) but to put it another way; the "something we could allow to pass" is an implicit negative and is cancelled out by the explicit negative "wasn't".

EDIT 2:
S4

Spoiler:

(second part)

Screen Shot 2020-01-10 at 2.10.13 pm.png

That's strange, how did that happen... hmm... did this happen so that you attacked Lurm's favourite with Dayton's eagle eye weapon, the special triggered (orange extra damage was dealt), and then within the same attack the orc was defeated, and the map transition happened?
Because then I can imagine that the map transition to part 2 messed up the special's attack end events to deal out due XP. So if I'm correct you've only missed out on some XP for Dayton and nothing serious happened (I hope).
If this is not when and how this message showed up, then please attach a replay of the scenario, because I need to know which unit attacked which and what happened during that attack.

So, it happened exactly as you predicted except that I still got the XP. Replay is attached.

TRS-(4) Lurm's Camp replay.gz

(104.88 KiB) Downloaded 180 times

EDIT:
something else I noticed, if you make a mistake and move a wounded unit and then undo the move, the blood effect stays where the unit originally moved as well as creating a new effect for the new path.

EDIT 2:
Act II dialogue
seanse --> seance
doughter --> daughter

EDIT 3
S7 Khaso's Weakness

Spoiler:

The opening dialogue says how Khaso guards his weakness and no one knows what it is, yet if you hover over him and check his abilities, it tells you what it is. Not sure if you're able to make traits/abilities hidden within Wesnoth, although I suspect you can't

[WhiteWolf]

So, it happened exactly as you predicted except that I still got the XP. Replay is attached.

TRS-(4) Lurm's Camp replay.gz

Yeah, because the map transition takes care of giving proper XP for the attack, I forgot about that, so it's just a warning message after all. Thanks, it's fixed in the next version

EDIT:
something else I noticed, if you make a mistake and move a wounded unit and then undo the move, the blood effect stays where the unit originally moved as well as creating a new effect for the new path.

In theory I could try to make an on-undo event that tries to clear up the path of the previous movement, but it's not trivial to implement and it would need to watch out for several things (like not to clear up anything else, so each item should be more precisely tracked). I'll see what I can do, but I also think it's fine as it is - it can be justified by defining the undo as a withdrawn order: the unit moved and the moved back because the general staff changed its mind.

EDIT 2:
Act II dialogue
seanse --> seance
doughter --> daughter

I did misspell seance, but doughter is a correct archaic form of daughter, at some places it's even spelled dothor. It's just some flavour for the the accent of the speakers.

EDIT 3
S7 Khaso's Weakness

Spoiler:

The opening dialogue says how Khaso guards his weakness and no one knows what it is, yet if you hover over him and check his abilities, it tells you what it is. Not sure if you're able to make traits/abilities hidden within Wesnoth, although I suspect you can't

Umm... are you playing the newest version? This is supposed to have been fixed since 1.3.0. I suggest an update to 1.3.1 There are other important fixes, and some new content in it. And it's compatible with saves from around these maps where you are.

[WackoJacko]

doughter --> daughter

I did misspell seance, but doughter is a correct archaic form of daughter, at some places it's even spelled dothor. It's just some flavour for the the accent of the speakers.

ahhh ok, I wasn't sure. Sorry about that

EDIT 3
S7 Khaso's Weakness

Spoiler:

The opening dialogue says how Khaso guards his weakness and no one knows what it is, yet if you hover over him and check his abilities, it tells you what it is. Not sure if you're able to make traits/abilities hidden within Wesnoth, although I suspect you can't

Umm... are you playing the newest version? This is supposed to have been fixed since 1.3.0. I suggest an update to 1.3.1 There are other important fixes, and some new content in it. And it's compatible with saves from around these maps where you are.
Screenshot at 2020-01-11 18-57-57.png

I thought I was playing the most updated version Have updated and it is working now, thanks.

EDIT:
When a unit that is hit with "savage weapon" and dies in subsequent turns due to bleeding, the unit that dealt the blow doesn't receive any XP, is this intentional or not?

EDIT 2:
S7: Humiliator ability doesn't seem to work when I attack, only when I am attacked.

EDIT 3:
S9: The unit "Quack" turns into a white mage All units turn into their loyalist counterpart when attacking or defending

[WhiteWolf]

EDIT:
When a unit that is hit with "savage weapon" and dies in subsequent turns due to bleeding, the unit that dealt the blow doesn't receive any XP, is this intentional or not?

Intentional. It could be argued whether it's fair or not, and it has been argued in the past, but my (current) view is that kill XP should only be given if the enemy is killed in regular combat. Therefore effects that kill units outside of combat (bleeding, area of effects that can also kill, and also one-hitting terrified captains) do not give kill XP.

S7: Humiliator ability doesn't seem to work when I attack, only when I am attacked.

It works here, but it is indeed a little silly with low XP units, and it's not detailed in the description. If the unit has 0 XP, it will still gain 3 XP, and if the unit has less than 4 XP, it will always return to 3 XP. You could say that the "zero-point" for humiliatior is in fact not 0 but 3 (or the level of the humiliator unit). This is because XP lowered below 0 doesn't make sense, and Wesnoth always gives the 3 level XP. But I have an idea now, I'll see if it's possible to get it to work properly.
EDIT: yes it can. It'll be fixed in the next version

EDIT 3:
S9: The unit "Quack" turns into a white mage All units turn into their loyalist counterpart when attacking or defending

They are still WIP units sadly, almost all of them have only their main sprite and the attack and defense animations are just placeholders

[WackoJacko]

S7: Humiliator ability doesn't seem to work when I attack, only when I am attacked.

It works here, but it is indeed a little silly with low XP units, and it's not detailed in the description. If the unit has 0 XP, it will still gain 3 XP, and if the unit has less than 4 XP, it will always return to 3 XP. You could say that the "zero-point" for humiliatior is in fact not 0 but 3 (or the level of the humiliator unit). This is because XP lowered below 0 doesn't make sense, and Wesnoth always gives the 3 level XP. But I have an idea now, I'll see if it's possible to get it to work properly.
EDIT: yes it can. It'll be fixed in the next version

That's a little strange as it states that a unit will not be rewarded with any XP; to receive 3 XP seems to be the exact opposite of the ability description.

EDIT 3:
S9: The unit "Quack" turns into a white mage All units turn into their loyalist counterpart when attacking or defending

They are still WIP units sadly, almost all of them have only their main sprite and the attack and defense animations are just placeholders

All good, just wanted to make sure this was something you were knew about.

EDIT:
In the Tavern/Inn, whilst talking to the dwarves, there is a typo. Listenning --> Listening

I have an idea for future development. Would it be possible to add a "help" button (such as by right-clicking). This menu could contain all the rules about drinks and intoxication levels, as well as what the different coloured quests imply (I've just read it but I've almost forgotten already ).

Keep up the good work, I'm enjoying the campaign.

[WhiteWolf]

That's a little strange as it states that a unit will not be rewarded with any XP; to receive 3 XP seems to be the exact opposite of the ability description.

It's just that there was a hardwired limitation I couldn't solve, and failed to update the description accordingly. But it will work as supposed to from the next version

I have an idea for future development. Would it be possible to add a "help" button (such as by right-clicking). This menu could contain all the rules about drinks and intoxication levels, as well as what the different coloured quests imply (I've just read it but I've almost forgotten already ).

Sure I was planning on such a menu item, but including more info on all special abilities as well, and some backstory on characters (if someone forgets), so it's actually already work in progress.
However there are tooltips for every quest start, which should give an idea about it's theme and length. Intoxication and available drinks are also tracked and listed in detail (meaning it will also tell you if it's safe or you're passing certain thresholds) in the "Drinking" right-click menu item

[WackoJacko]

Got a Lua Error, don't think it's gonna break anything but I'll share it anyway

[WhiteWolf]

Got a Lua Error, don't think it's gonna break anything but I'll share it anyway
Screen Shot 2020-01-12 at 7.08.34 pm.png

Hmm... which Wesnoth version are you using?

[WackoJacko]

Got a Lua Error, don't think it's gonna break anything but I'll share it anyway
Screen Shot 2020-01-12 at 7.08.34 pm.png

Hmm... which Wesnoth version are you using?

1.14.8

[WhiteWolf]

1.14.8

Thanks I'm asking because this seems to be some bug in the micro AI behind the wandering animals, and it is implemented differently for pre and post 1.14.6 versions because of a known Wesnoth bug in pre-1.14.6, but we're talking about post-that then. I played the scenario for a while on 1.14.9, but I couldn't reproduce this so far. Can you please attach a replay, so that I can examine what units were moved where by the AI in that turn? However it's highly likely that this is still some core-Wesnoth bug with micro AI's, but we'll see.

[WackoJacko]

The below turn is when it occurred, just hit end turn.

TRS-(TID 1) The Rugnur-Helhamel Mine Turn 9.gz

(326.55 KiB) Downloaded 197 times

Replay is also attached.

TRS-(TID 1) The Rugnur-Helhamel Mine replay.gz

(256.74 KiB) Downloaded 181 times

[mattsc]

WackoJacko: Thanks for posting the replay. It still took me several attempts to reproduce it (because there's some randomness involved; see below), but I eventually got the error message.

WhiteWolf: So this is an interesting one ... What's happening is that your random placement of rabbit holes (dirt.png) sometimes places a hole on the map border. If that hole is then (randomly) chosen to spawn a new rabbit, no valid location to place a unit is found, which causes the error. So there are two dice rolls that both have to come out a certain way before you get the error ...

We could consider this either a Micro AI bug or a scenario design issue (maybe it's both), but I think the MAIs should be robust against things like this, so I am going to fix it (exclude rabbit holes on the map border) in the Forest Animals MAI. In the meantime, there's a simple workaround for it. In your [random_placement] instructions in the prestart event, just add include_borders=no to the location filter.

Thanks again for posting this. This is a situation I hadn't thought of, so it's good to get error reports like this, otherwise I would have never found this.

[WackoJacko]

WackoJacko: Thanks for posting the replay. It still took me several attempts to reproduce it (because there's some randomness involved; see below), but I eventually got the error message.

Thanks again for posting this. This is a situation I hadn't thought of, so it's good to get error reports like this, otherwise I would have never found this.

Haha no problem. Lucky for me (or should i say unlucky for me ) this happened multiple times throughout the scenario. I tried using the that Turn 9 save and it happened three times in a row so I thought it might have been a problem with the turn .

I was pretty sure it wasn't a game breaker but I still thought you guys would want to know