For Power (0.6.5)

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denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 19th, 2017, 4:58 pm

These are comments on and around scenario 04 Repelling the Orcs, as announced. (I'm gonna play the fight with outlaws, look nice and I like the landscape.)

* We are supposed to face an even more dreadful threat in the form of a real orcish army, instead of just a pair of raiding bands as before; this view seems supported by initial dialogues. However, ennemies are in fact much weaker than in first scenario: status table shows less than half gold and no more income. Indeed, they also have 3 initial level 2 orcish warriors, but we have the 4 cavalrymen. Plus, Clare's side is are stronger with new L1 units and several L2s. Plus a whole new ally side of loyalists, real professional killers. Hum...

I thus expected an event programmed for say turn 3 where the bulk of the orcish army actually arrives, stronger than their present forces (we need for a challenge them twice stronger than scenario 1). But in fact this arrival of the army is announced at the end of the scenario. I did not understand the story that way at all.

However, what will make the battle much more difficult is not to have an AI ally to take most damage and losses: Glacyn nearly doesn't recruit, see previous post.

Maybe make the battle a little tougher, but with the same balance of forces, with some more gold on all sides, and some level 2 recruits for the orcs.

* In the first scenario, you made the nice choice of having orc bosses be real orcish leader (a rare type). After reflexion, I find this very right, also because *they* also have a mild range attack. They were only level 1, but it's ok for a very first scenario which in my view should be a little easy to welcome players.
Hoewever, you don't go on this track for this second battle against orcs, the leaders are again normal "super grunts". Why?

* One of the orcish leaders not only is 2 level 3 warlord but has a guard of 3 level 2 warriors, while the other is just a level 2 with no guard. Sure, this fits the sheer injustice of *our* world, where the more power one has, the more advantages in addition... But for the game it would be better I guess to reverse that setting, namely that the weaker leader has a guard precisely because he is weaker. Or, dispatch 2 guards for the weaker one and only one guard for the stronger one.

* I don't like 2 separate sides both played by the human player. It's very anoying and frustrating for me: similar problematic gameplay as with an AI ally (ally units occupy needed hexes, block moves, cannot be used...) on each turn, this time for both sides. Plus, I often mess order of side turns, at times securing a position against ennemy couterattack when in fact it's my ally playing next, or instead going on with temerary attacks thinking at my ally securing my units when in fact it's the ennemt playing next. Plus, we are more likely to forget units wandering or healing on borders, often outside the view frame. How do other players think? How do they like or dislike this kind of gamaply

An alternative is to have 2 recruiting leaders on the same side, with 2 castles as already is the case, a far more pleasant setting to play in my view; if very rare, since authors don't seem to think at such a solution. Since it makes fighting somewhat easier (we can use all units together), there would need balancing. In any case, if you haven't experienced such a setting yet, it is very well worth a try I guess.

* Strange to hear Lemyr called "Sir", even dubbed as knight by the earl. There is also something troubling in this dubbing scene, since most players I guess will already have Lemyr be a knight (on medium difficulty). It happened for me at end of scenario 1 while I did not try to do it at all, plus Lemyr still has scenario 2 for a chance to advance. But I don't know how to change that, except for suppressing this forced levelling. Why do you want or need that, anyway? Lemyr will very quickly be knight in any case...

* The start scene shows the ally riders kill ennemy swordsmen by charging them (as Lemyr could do, before or after his advancement) while they are in fact cavalrymen with a sword as weapon. Since they are part of the earl'sarmy, maybe change them into horsemen (i.e. in Wesnoth little knights), if needed giving us only three since horsemen cost more than cavalrymen (23 vs 17). Later, by playing, I suddenly realised that this is actually the standard attack anim for cavalrymen, which is for the least weird since they are not supposed to charge, instead they strike with a sword.

* An unual design by this campaign, at least in the initial scenarios, is that we don't know what we'll be able to recruit next, there does not seem to be a set race or faction, so that we cannot plan and build a military force on the long run, as we usually do in campaigns. Plus, of what force or forces we have a given point of the story (eg this second battle against orcs), we don't know which one will go on with Clare later, if any, so that we cannot dispatch XP and advancement; we are blind. I rather like it, and it's nice for a change, but we should know it somehow; it's like a rule change. Just knowing it would allow, without mental trouble or useless questioning, an attitude like, for instance: (1) recruit/recall at best for the present battle or other challenge (2) don't bother with dispatching XP, except for heroes and maybe loyals, ie other mages, just kill as is best for the present fighting situation.

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 19th, 2017, 5:05 pm

A few comments and report on playing 06_On_The_Road

One or two points about the general story:

* Clare's attitude in front of outlaws.
[Clare:] "Orcs? And they are killing innoc... killing people? Never in front of my eyes! I will help you, people."

After a few more scenarios played (I played more before reporting this one), I finally understood this strange bit of speech, with Clare changing her mind & her words in the middle of a sentence; I mean, I guess I finally understood, not sure. Is this supposed to suggest that Clare judges outlaws in general, thus does not like those ones before even having met them, all this with a very simple-minded thinking (or absence of). All in all, somewhat like her attitude against orcs, just far less so... Am I right? If yes, then this is just not enough, we need more to understand your intent, even with the help of Kinry later whispering:
"Well, even though she's going to travel with us she seems to not like it at all..."
...which is just as enigmatic for us as long as we haven't first decoded the enigmatic words by Clare.

Since the outlaws will be important if I understand well, and for them not being shown and judged in a biased, single-sided, way, including by Clare, I would suggest reading about southern italian "Briganti" (rebelling against the power imposed by the north, esp. Lombards), and their legends. Just take some inspiration, maybe. Indeed, every folk has bandit legends, but these italians ones seem to me richer and more humane.

Also, maybe Clare has lost a friend (why not a potential lover?) who later became a bandit himself. Such a past event could be shortly told *after* 06_On_The_Road, so that we then understand better her previous words "a posteriori" (after the fact). There may be, in the wilder north, at the borders of the kingdom, numerous people and communities living not under its rule (of the kingdom), even clearly refusing it; which means outlaws.

* Characters and their speeches.
The rest of the dialogs, contribution to the story and characters, sound good to me. Especially Tinry and later Merissa and Mybryn, feel natural & interesting enough, the few I have seen them. Somewhat better than Lemyr and above all Clare herself as of now, but I know how difficult it is to develop the main character. (This is by far the main weakness of UtBS, my favorite campaign, the hero is dull, tasteless, despite the story being told from his pov.)

* outlaws with Clare (on her side)
Timry, plus all of his band, then later Merissa, help and follow Clare for no apparent reason. I understand that Timry is attracted by by Clare (or am i wrong?), but it's far to be enough; and it is no reason for any guy of his band, less so for Merissa...
There is even less reason, indeed, for Timry to cede the lead of his band to Clare!!! Why don't you just let him lead and recruit? (just like in the first battle together)

Mybryn's attitude sounds somewhat more natural to me, albeit a bit caricatural, and under our own values (money money). Also, he trusts Clare too easily, which is a bit strange because *she* obviously wouldn't trust them outlaws for anything.


=== playing ===

No challenge, as Timry himself says ("They don’t ‘ave any more grunts. This'll be easy as it gets, guys"). I guess it's your intent to have us live now an easy and short little battle.

I restarted once for no important reason (don't remember) and, after thus having seen how things happen, decided to have Clare, mostly, do the bulk of HP sucking from grunts and other melee orcs, and let outlaws take kills when they can. She will level to silver mage[*] anyway, right now or even at start of next scenario. Unfortunately, the AI is so unbearable... it won't retreat even a nearly levelled unit with 1 HP left. The outlaws lost that way their 2 most experience units (1 footpad & rogue), but other got experience and I did not want to replay.
Well... Nothing more to say about this playing, I guess. Except that I, or rather the outlaws were once more pretty unlucky.

[*] By the way, I dislike Clare's portraits for level 2 & 3 (don't remember level 1, but since I didn't note it must have been ok for me). What does not fit in my feeling:
* looks far too old (both portraits)
* looks like ordinary folk, not someone with personality
* she's supposed to be pretty (--> Timry, Merissa, not to mention Lemyr) and is not in my view (albeit I'm not the kind judging after superficial beauty norms)
Well, even ignoring these very points, those 2 portaits just do not fit by me.

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 19th, 2017, 6:07 pm

I comment now on scenario 07 Seeking The Mage and the following meeting with Haldar, since there is no playing, just a campaign path choice.

About story, dialog, and charaters, I have no more to say than what was evoked earlier about outlaw folks, and their following Clare.

I found the gameplay problematic. Since both the story and objective suggest to search for where the mage may well dwell, I thought we had to find his home, a house ("village" in Wesnoth dialect); think at THoT when searching the runesmith, for instance. And as the path straight northwards is shown to us by Merissa, it could only be one of the 3 houses up there on the mountain flanks. The objective states that it's Clare herself who must find him (say, if someone else finds his home, he will be away searching for magic plants ;-)).

However I could not find him there indeed. I then thought you may have mislead us intentionally, for some good or otherwise funny reason, thus searched every other house on the map. Which was quick enough due to Melissa being a silver mage now (teleport) and my bandits having killed every living thing around and taking all villages. Still no Haldar. Maybe he also teleports when I (Clare) come by?

[By the way, why did you change the mage line so that we cannot chose her advancement after mage? And why did you chose silver mage (i always advance to archmage, finding silver mage either useless or instead just too much, depending on cases)]

I then cheated by reading the scenario code and found that Clare had to stand on one of the two pathes leading even further northwards outside the map; but with no house there...

My experience, but maybe it's just me, is that story and objective are not only not clear enough, but pretty misleading (even if this were an adventure game with puzzles). But I have a workaround that does not require changing anything: since Haldar lives in a cave, just draw, say, 3 cave hexes up there in triangle. Most players, after having unsuccessfully searched him in the central-northern houses, may go there just to see... However it probably won't be enough for many. So maybe let us have Timry, or better Merissa who knows this part of the landscape better and also speaks about Haldar ('s badness), say something more about him that may have a chance to evoke caves or underground, in players' minds. Think at obscurity, such things... Maybe she just once entered his home cave just by chance, met him then, and says a word or two about that?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now the meeting with Haldar. At the end, I chose to let him down because the story (your words) seem to imply this is what you intend, and having read the forum thread I guessed this would lead me, or rather Clare, deal much more with outlaws. They're my favorite "race" (footpad and its line my favorite unit types), with all their weaknesses. Also, Lemyr and Merissa, as few as we have got to know them, sound like the most interesting, "immersive", characters to me so far (it's just me indeed).

Now, why does Clare want to kill him? We need much more justification than her few words which, in fact, say nothing:
"You are the evil. I have no other option than to kill you!"
In other words: "I must kill you because I must kill you!"
I have nothing to suggest because I find this just insane; plus ideology.

About his reaction, or rather absence of, no more, no better reason. Why doesn't he even react to her mad agression? Again I have no suggestion for a reason. But yourself suggest sth in a comment of the scenario code, namely that:
"yes he doesn't want to harm her maybe he isn't a really bad guy"
So, show us that, despite his taking the path of necromancy, he's (still) a good man. And I would indeed insist on that, since this is a kind of hard and subtle balance between good and evil that you want to have as background for the whole of Clare's story, if I undertand well, isn't it? Not only that, but Haldar stage right now is a kind of preview of Clare's future, isn't he?

In complement or alone, we could have an action looking a little less unnatural: let Haldar reply, maybe with a spell that wounds and immobilises her. Like a shaman's slowing attack, but with immobilise "weapon special" instead. Even better (since we are in a live part of scenario), let us experience that she is blocked on place (we cannot even just move to a nearby cave village to heal), and have her say some words whenever we try.

This still lets somewhat unexplained why he does not just kill her for her wanting to kill him, but on the level of action and characters, and overall scene, looks better I guess.

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James_The_Invisible
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » November 19th, 2017, 6:54 pm

We are supposed to face an even more dreadful threat in the form of a real orcish army, instead of just a pair of raiding bands as before; this view seems supported by initial dialogues. However, ennemies are in fact much weaker than in first scenario
Wait, in scenario 1 enemies have 125-180 gold, in scenario 4 it is 160-220 + many deployed units.
I thus expected an event programmed for say turn 3 where the bulk of the orcish army actually arrives, stronger than their present forces
Well, I can do that if the scenario is too easy.
In the first scenario, you made the nice choice of having orc bosses be real orcish leader (a rare type). ... Hoewever, you don't go on this track for this second battle against orcs, the leaders are again normal "super grunts". Why?
Well, honestly, I cannot remember anymore. It was like this since the very first version.
One of the orcish leaders not only is 2 level 3 warlord but has a guard of 3 level 2 warriors, while the other is just a level 2 with no guard. Sure, this fits the sheer injustice of *our* world, where the more power one has, the more advantages in addition...
Maybe the warlord gained control over another weak tribe, that is not uncommon.
I don't like 2 separate sides both played by the human player. It's very anoying and frustrating for me: similar problematic gameplay as with an AI ally (ally units occupy needed hexes, block moves, cannot be used...) on each turn, this time for both sides. Plus, I often mess order of side turns, at times securing a position against ennemy couterattack when in fact it's my ally playing next, or instead going on with temerary attacks thinking at my ally securing my units when in fact it's the ennemt playing next. Plus, we are more likely to forget units wandering or healing on borders, often outside the view frame.
I see. Well, I decided for 2 sides for 2 reasons. Firstly, they are not going to stay after this scenario. Secondly, having more leaders is quite unusual, many players are not used to it. And actually, this side was originally controlled by AI so it was easier to just let the player control it.
But I might change it if more people want it.
In any case, if you haven't experienced such a setting yet, it is very well worth a try I guess.
I have seen it in a few campaigns.
Strange to hear Lemyr called "Sir", even dubbed as knight by the earl.
Why do you find it strange?
There is also something troubling in this dubbing scene, since most players I guess will already have Lemyr be a knight (on medium difficulty). It happened for me at end of scenario 1 while I did not try to do it at all, plus Lemyr still has scenario 2 for a chance to advance.
Well, you were very quick with his leveling :).
Why do you want or need that, anyway? Lemyr will very quickly be knight in any case...
I want him to be officially promoted.
The start scene shows the ally riders kill ennemy swordsmen by charging them (as Lemyr could do, before or after his advancement) while they are in fact cavalrymen with a sword as weapon. ... Later, by playing, I suddenly realised that this is actually the standard attack anim for cavalrymen, which is for the least weird since they are not supposed to charge, instead they strike with a sword.
I do realise that one cavalryman cannot kill an orcish grunt in one attack. But here, it was a surprise attack so it might do more damage.
maybe change them into horsemen
I will think about it.
After a few more scenarios played (I played more before reporting this one), I finally understood this strange bit of speech, with Clare changing her mind & her words in the middle of a sentence; I mean, I guess I finally understood, not sure. Is this supposed to suggest that Clare judges outlaws in general, thus does not like those ones before even having met them, all this with a very simple-minded thinking (or absence of).
The point is that in middle of sentence, she realises that they are not so innocent (they are criminals after all). For her judging them, maybe a little bit. She is a law-abiding citizen (mostly :D) and she has no idea how someone might end up in their place. Though she does not really hate them (unlike orcs), she still cares a bit for them (they are humans in the end).
of the kingdom
Again, most of this campaign does not take place in the kingdom of Wesnoth. We are in some earldom in the Northlands.
Timry, plus all of his band, then later Merissa, help and follow Clare for no apparent reason. I understand that Timry is attracted by by Clare (or am i wrong?), but it's far to be enough; and it is no reason for any guy of his band, less so for Merissa...
Spoiler:
There is even less reason, indeed, for Timry to cede the lead of his band to Clare!!! Why don't you just let him lead and recruit?
Again, the multiple leaders issue. Also, it would be a bit weird if the protagonist could not recruit.
(just like in the first battle together)
Well, that was a different situation. Clare was on her way and saw that some battle is taking place. She just offered to help, no one said anything about joining her yet.
I guess it's your intent to have us live now an easy and short little battle.
Yes, I wanted to have some easy scenario here.
Mybryn's attitude sounds somewhat more natural to me, albeit a bit caricatural, and under our own values (money money).
For what other reason would he help Clare, in your opinion? (It is a serious question.) He does not care about her cause.
Also, he trusts Clare too easily
Maybe you have a point here. I will see that I can do about it.
By the way, I dislike Clare's portraits for level 2 & 3
She uses standard portraits for mages (until certain event in Chapter 1).
looks like ordinary folk, not someone with personality
She will have an original portrait a bit later.
I found the gameplay problematic. Since both the story and objective suggest to search for where the mage may well dwell, I thought we had to find his home, a house ("village" in Wesnoth dialect); ... My experience, but maybe it's just me, is that story and objective are not only not clear enough, but pretty misleading
He does not live in a house, rather in a cave (you will see in next scenario why). You have to move Clare to coordinates x=26, y=1-3. (Oh, I see that you have later found it out by reading the codes.) I do not remember anyone else having a big trouble with finding him.
So maybe let us have Timry, or better Merissa who knows this part of the landscape better and also speaks about Haldar ('s badness), say something more about him that may have a chance to evoke caves or underground
Not a bad idea but ...
Maybe she just once entered his home cave just by chance, met him then, and says a word or two about that?
Actually, Haldar gave Clare a map with location of his home.
having read the forum thread I guessed this would lead me, or rather Clare, deal much more with outlaws
Yes, you will play with outlaws in the following scenarios.
At the end, I chose to let him down because the story (your words) seem to imply this is what you intend
Well, Clare definitely did not like necromancy but if she was desperate enough ...
say, if someone else finds his home, he will be away searching for magic plants ;-)
:lol: good joke.
[By the way, why did you change the mage line so that we cannot chose her advancement after mage? And why did you chose silver mage (i always advance to archmage, finding silver mage either useless or instead just too much, depending on cases)]
Because she does not focus on brute power of her spells, instead she uses special abilities (like teleport and later also others).
Also, Lemyr and Merissa
You meant Tinry, right :) ?
Now, why does Clare want to kill him? We need much more justification than her few words which, in fact, say nothing:
"You are the evil. I have no other option than to kill you!"
In other words: "I must kill you because I must kill you!"
I have nothing to suggest because I find this just insane; plus ideology.
The penalty for practicing necromancy in most of civilized world is death so she would just enforce the law. But maybe I should have chosen better words to tell it.
About his reaction, or rather absence of, no more, no better reason. Why doesn't he even react to her mad agression? Again I have no suggestion for a reason.
He has his reasons why he wants her alive. They will be revealed by the end of Chapter 6.
And I would indeed insist on that, since this is a kind of hard and subtle balance between good and evil that you want to have as background for the whole of Clare's story, if I undertand well, isn't it? Not only that, but Haldar stage right now is a kind of preview of Clare's future, isn't he?
Spoiler:
In complement or alone, we could have an action looking a little less unnatural: let Haldar reply, maybe with a spell that wounds and immobilises her. Like a shaman's slowing attack, but with immobilise "weapon special" instead. Even better (since we are in a live part of scenario), let us experience that she is blocked on place (we cannot even just move to a nearby cave village to heal), and have her say some words whenever we try.
A good idea. While I would like him let her just leave (without harming her), it does not look realistic.

It was quite a lot of feedback at once, so if I have forgotten to answer to anything important, do not hesitate to remind me.

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 6:25 am

It was quite a lot of feedback at once, so if I have forgotten to answer to anything important, do not hesitate to remind me.
Again, feel free to answer whenever you like, or even not to answer at all, no issue by me,
Denis

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 11:19 am

I have the campaign further until freeing the "damsel in distress" (scenario 18a), which was great fun, and will report separately, in one or more posts.

I take the opportunity to indicate that most fights seem to me somewhat too easy on medium. Since such judgements are pretty relative and subjective: I'm not a very good player, usually play on medium, and don't like hard challenges which force me to pay exaggerate attention to detail (micromanage), I search fun and involvement much more than difficulty; but there should still be some in most scenarios. Also, I play with no cheat (save-load, debug mode...) except for occasionnaly watching the code, however only when I'm somehow forced to (example to come).

In most cases, at start of day after the first night, the battle front is half cleared of ennemies and most remaining ones are well wounded. So, in my view, from the moment when Clare has outlaws on her side, there could be 1/3 of level 2 units by ennemies. Not as early as "on the road" because Clare does not recruit then (so there is only AI tactics! :lol: , in particular no ZoC), plus we want some experienced bandits to survive, and the presence of fast goblin riders changes fighting. With the help of the highwayman's band (forgot his name), 2/3 ennemy units may be level 2. Typically, we could probably face that at the battle for invading the orcish town (well, real trials will say, indeed). It's also more fun and interest to face a mix of different types *and levels* (well, it's only me maybe).

[About the highwayman's band, if I had known during the initial scenarios that we would later recruit poachers, I would have levelled 2 peasants to pikeman, instead of one to poacher.]

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » November 20th, 2017, 11:51 am

"damsel in distress" (scenario 18a), which was great fun
Glad to hear that you liked it.
I'm not a very good player, usually play on medium, and don't like hard challenges which force me to pay exaggerate attention to detail (micromanage), I search fun and involvement much more than difficulty
Same here, except that I play on easy :).
Typically, we could probably face that at the battle for invading the orcish town
Do you find that scenario too easy? Especially with consideration of what previous dialogues suggest. This is a scenario where I definitely would not mind giving the enemy some level 2 units.

Edit: since my previous post I have (among other changes) forbid Glacyn to recruit level 0 units and made some improvements to dialogues in scenario Recruiting Bandits (where Mubryn joins you) in the way that he is not so eager to go with you.
Last edited by James_The_Invisible on December 5th, 2017, 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 1:37 pm

Do you find that scenario too easy? Especially with consideration of what previous dialogues suggest. This is a scenario where I definitely would not mind giving the enemy some level 2 units.
Do it, then, and let players and yourself exprience how things go. See next post for a little more detail on that, esp. that battle precisely. But you should not draw to much conclusion from a report by a single player playing a single time.

denispir
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 1:39 pm

[not proof read, may be many typos and such]

Here is a report on playing until scenario 18a Damsel in Distress (there are cutscenes in between).

Scenario 10a An Exercise is just that. You may find a better name, nevertheless.

I just did not fight scenario 11a Orcish Scouts, just prudently moved toward the signpost. I would even have not recalled at all if I had known in advance that, for some mysterious reason, the wolf riders just do not move, do not even attack when we are in range and at night. Probably no need to say more, except that we could dispense with this scene alltogether, or else the whole scene (and map) may deserve a redesign.

Scenario 12 The Assassins Hideout is clearly globally nice and fun, but too easy I guess as evoked before. The battle is not only rather easy but too small and far too short (11 turns for me) compared to our expectation (mine at least), and I'm one of the numerous Wesnoth players who dislike big battles. Man, our ennemy only gets 110 gold! at start and few income. I have twice more gold, I am a thinking player, have super fighters at hand, 3 level 3 heroes, a pair of "levelling effects" ready to explode at the face of the ennemies, not to mention magic... Also note that following the story, this one battle should be one of the relatively bigger and tougher ones (in this first chapter of For Power). In my view, but this indeed requires real trials, we could deal with:
* a couple of level 2 ennemies
* orcs get a small troop of reinforcement whenever a unit of ours (or precisely Clare) enters the town (would be funny to have them come from SW and thus sandwich us); must not come too late or too far, so maybe have them visually run to reach town gates; this would also "grow" the battle a bit, as exected I think
* even a level 3 bodyguard for the boss would be fun (too bad there is no level 3 assassin, it would have been nice for a change)
What do other players think?
To better evaluate the difficulty I faced: I think I finished in turn 11/20, no loss, no big risk of loss even, and luck was balanced: -5%/-5% damage dealt/taken (reason i remember). Again it's only me, on this very case.

Scenario 13 The Path of Revenge, the dual between Clare and the orcish assassin, is yet another scene where we, I mean I, could not get your intent, namely that the only way to win is to lose by having Clare die and then be "lich-ified" by Haldar. And indeed I have no idea how you could do it, help us guess. Part of the problem lies in the fact that you force us to first kill the assassin several times just to think that maybe he will never die; due to illimited stocks, obviously, of full-heal potion. Worse, once we think that, a normal player (not reading WML code) cannot be sure... [I myself stopped after 2 kills only because I know that WML events are either trigger one-time-only or every-time, ha ha!] Another side of the problem is that the player must somehow play badly to have Clare die. Despite the assassin's very high threat, and the surprising slowing effect (???), it is certainly possible to play prudently for a long time without her dying. Rather what can be expected is that the player just gives up and then...
... if can read code, opens your scenario file (and the one of the next scenario). I bet this is not your gameplay intention ;-) to see what we are supposed to do, what is supposed to happen,
... or stops your campaign,
... or asks for info online.

Maybe, instead of having the assassin be immortal with this potion, rather have some nice event, or why not a secret weapon, kill her; just kill her at some point, and this does not depends on our playing. Certainly, we can imagine something (event or weapon) that would be somehow related to the story, which still participates to improve it. Even better, find something that contributes to justify the following scene with Haldar:

Again, a scene where reasons or justifications sheerly lack (as I feel it), according to me. How and why does Haldar pop up here and now? Why does he want her to be a lich? What the hell is she for him? (After all, we haven't heard of Clare's parents! or did I miss it?) And, how is it possible to lichify a dead body? I mean someone else's corpse (never heard of that before) (actually, I also do not know how liches proceeded for themselves, but at least I know they do it, thus the method exists)

I like the cutscene or rather dialog 14a The Price of Revenge, between Merissa & Clare, 2 women sharing, human sensitivity & intelligence, and this with simple words and style... especially Merissa's words "I know you have a good heart and that's all that's important" sound right and humane. Maybe add something more on her part (Merissa): we have her views on Clare's experience, but I miss some bit of her own life experience, something lived... Would bring yet more sharing, especially if CLare then expresses her views in return. It would also enrich Merissa as a character (pretty good imo, as we see again in the scene back to the village; as well as Timry).

Also: who is she, basically? We only know she knows both (other?) outlaw leaders. I see her like a kind of wise (sage), albeit in my very special understanding (rather opposite to main ieology): someone pretty lively, bold, social or cooperative even if often spending time alone, intuitive, trying to enjoy life, helpful...

In this scene in a camp after slaying the assassin, it would also be good for us to see Clare & Merissa quit the others for their intimate conversation. Maybe have them even exit the delimited camp toward the "wild", which would require there to be a visible exit, and some nature around, where they go to. For instance:
[Clare:]"Come with me please [they move a bit], I will tell you but you must promise that you will not tell anyone else. [they move further away]
We could also see them join the others *back* after their conversation, and indeed in your text Merissa then invites Clare to "...now join the party".
Yes, I like this idea very much; just a detail, and trivial, but seems it would bring a real plus to the scene.

In the cutscene 15a Back Home, I was disappointed by the evolution of love affairs. I liked it that Lemyr loves Clare and for so long, that he says nothing or rather hides that, that Clare is blind about it (not only it's common, but fits her character in my view), that we can guess that certainly she loves him also, albeit in the other, friendly or brotherly sense of the word, that Lemyr also start to love and desire her, obviously, not to mention the enigmatic but equally attractive sentimental side of Merissa's living. And now, we have Clare suddenly declaring, out of nowhere and for no reason (nothing has changed) that she . As if she just decided it, as if sentiments were decisions instead of things that happen, live, change, die...

Not only that, but now falls down, the story is deprived of any emotional interest, at least on the love aspect; as well shown by the end of next cutscene with the earl: "All I want is to live in my village with my dear Lemyr"; how interesting! ;-) The story is deprived of any such interest, at least until a radical new event or change happens in this dimension of their lives.

Playing scenario 16a Another Orcish Assault (also called return of the Orcs?) was fun, but as evoked before rather not hard enough to be challenging. Wow, but now we have back all this forces, and together: not only all outlaws (from both Lemyr and the highwayman's gangs), not only the peasant-become-strong-fighters, but also the precious 2 mage friends of Clare. Pleased to have advanced them to healers, since we face hordes of poisoning orcish assassins, the main interest and challenge of this battle. [But now I never hesitate to deal with them using magic range attack when needed, even if it means the killer is poisoned back, so many poisoners are no more the threat and challenge they used to be.]
The ennemies could have more gold: they have 2*135, Clare 208 in my playing, and villagers led by Lemyr a rather surprising and greatly excessive 416 !!! They should also recruit mostly level 2 units by now, except for poisoners, only some level 2. Maybe 2-3 level 3. Also, I would again like to see their bosses of the orcish leader line, precisely now level 3 orcish sovereign.

The Cutscene 17a Conversation with the Earl is evoked above, brings nothing for me, thus I would happily do without it, but I suspect that you need it for some reason to come, maybe.

The scenario 18a Damsel in Distress was a very good surprise: original, fun, globally well designed in gameplay and drawn on map, just enough challenging, with things (rune teleport) new to understand how they work and understand how to deal with them.
However, with our "killpower" now, there could be some difficulty on a some island(s); and provide one two more not empty islands because with our killpower we deal with each island in 1-3 turns (and have healing), so that we finish early (turn 11/21 for me). Some suggestions:
* The island with the "mamzel", probably last to reach naturally, may have 2 archers in addition (level 2)
* Replace level 0 zombies in island (since we already fight level 1 ones at entry) by a mix of bats and ghouls (drain & poison), mixed level 1 & 2
* Add a wraith to the pair of bone shooters, to face melee (with drain) in addition
* Add a ghost-only island, with a mix of wraith (drain, plus some range attack) and shadow (strong melee with backstab)
[EDIT: corrected line above, was not understandable]

Again, the gameplay is very pleasant to discover and to actually play, especially how prepare and place our units when reaching a new island. This is especially important because due to placement the ennemies attack first. On this point, the island with 2 level 3, draug + banebow thus melee + range, was a thinking challenge. Maybe because previous islands went easily well, I had not thought at all, and had a unit nearly killed at once: indeed, their combined destructive force is far enough to kill even a string level 2 with full health, and this with no much luck. And I had moved there with several units standing before a healer, so that for sure one of them was easily killable. I had no loss, but dislike when it depends on sheer luck, so i though further and restarted the turn. This time I sent there a single unit, my strongest indeed (another highwayman with 73HP, due to resilient & quick), not even backed by a healer since she also would be reachable; after he took the damage (and gave some to the draug) I moved him back and transfer a commando on this island... where now ennemy units were reachable at once, and each by several units. Done ;-).

I would just suppress the objective option to not deal with fighting.

I don't understand the island with just 3 villages, less so that they already belong to us (red flag). Oh, perhaps: is it for us to heal? for players who had not advanced mages to healer? Very bad choice indeed... ;-) (this may also explain the big number of turns)

Finally, this question of healers may explain better why most fights are a bit too easy, in my playing. I mean, since healing is just overpowerful as I already said. As illustrated by this battle: no unit, but the one attacked by the pair level 3 ennemies, was totally "off fight" for healing (the necessary transfers also helped).

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James_The_Invisible
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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » November 20th, 2017, 3:18 pm

Scenario 10a An Exercise is just that. You may find a better name, nevertheless.
Sure, it does not have a good name right now.
for some mysterious reason, the wolf riders just do not move, do not even attack when we are in range and at night.
I have programmed them so once you discover them, they should focus on moving to the signpost.
Scenario 12 The Assassins Hideout is clearly globally nice and fun, but too easy I guess as evoked before. ... Also note that following the story, this one battle should be one of the relatively bigger and tougher ones
Sure, it should be one of the harder scenarios. I will look into it.
a couple of level 2 ennemies
This is certainly a good option.
orcs get a small troop of reinforcement whenever a unit of ours (or precisely Clare) enters the town (would be funny to have them come from SW and thus sandwich us); must not come too late or too far, so maybe have them visually run to reach town gates; this would also "grow" the battle a bit, as exected I think
Not a bad idea either. But having them come from southwest would be too much of a tomato surprise in my opinion.
too bad there is no level 3 assassin
But there is one - https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/mainlin ... blade.html. It was added in Wesnoth 1.13.0 and I have a copy of it in this add-on for older versions. I was planning to use at some point in Chapter 6 but it might be used here as well.
Scenario 13 The Path of Revenge, the dual between Clare and the orcish assassin, is yet another scene where we, I mean I, could not get your intent, namely that the only way to win is to lose by having Clare die and then be "lich-ified" by Haldar. And indeed I have no idea how you could do it, help us guess.
Well, I expect the worse here (that Clare will be killed soon). I might use the level 3 assassin here to make it harder.
Despite the assassin's very high threat, and the surprising slowing effect (???)
Yes, I have given him slow weapon special so Clare will deal less damage in retaliation thus will be killed easily.
How and why does Haldar pop up here and now? Why does he want her to be a lich?
He does not necessary want her to become a lich, he just wants her to be around for something (but his plan with her fails in any case).
What the hell is she for him? (After all, we haven't heard of Clare's parents! or did I miss it?)
He just wants her to be his apprentice, nothing more. And no, Clare's parents are not mentioned but they are somewhere around.
And, how is it possible to lichify a dead body? I mean someone else's corpse (never heard of that before) (actually, I also do not know how liches proceeded for themselves, but at least I know they do it, thus the method exists)
She was not dead yet, just close to it. About the process, one must indeed die during it but has to cast some spells before that.
I like the cutscene or rather dialog 14a The Price of Revenge, between Merissa & Clare, 2 women sharing, human sensitivity & intelligence, and this with simple words and style... especially Merissa's words "I know you have a good heart and that's all that's important" sound right and humane.
Glad to hear that :).
Maybe add something more on her part (Merissa): we have her views on Clare's experience, but I miss some bit of her own life experience, something lived... Would bring yet more sharing, especially if CLare then expresses her views in return. It would also enrich Merissa as a character (pretty good imo, as we see again in the scene back to the village; as well as Timry).
I will think about this.
Also: who is she, basically? We only know she knows both (other?) outlaw leaders. I see her like a kind of wise (sage), albeit in my very special understanding (rather opposite to main ieology): someone pretty lively, bold, social or cooperative even if often spending time alone, intuitive, trying to enjoy life, helpful...
Well, your vision of her is quite accurate.
In this scene in a camp after slaying the assassin, it would also be good for us to see Clare & Merissa quit the others for their intimate conversation.
It is not a bad idea but I do not consider that necessary. But maybe time will change my opinion.
In the cutscene 15a Back Home, I was disappointed by the evolution of love affairs. ... that we can guess that certainly she loves him also, albeit in the other, friendly or brotherly sense of the word ... And now, we have Clare suddenly declaring, out of nowhere and for no reason (nothing has changed) that she . As if she just decided it, as if sentiments were decisions instead of things that happen, live, change, die... Not only that, but now falls down, the story is deprived of any emotional interest, at least on the love aspect; as well shown by the end of next cutscene with the earl: "All I want is to live in my village with my dear Lemyr"; how interesting! ;-) The story is deprived of any such interest, at least until a radical new event or change happens in this dimension of their lives.
Sorry to hear that. I was not sure how exactly I should express the feelings between them. An advice here would be much appreciated.
scenario 16a Another Orcish Assault (also called return of the Orcs?)
Another Orcish Assault is the old name, it is called Return of the Orcs now. The old id is in place so old save files continue to work but eventually the id will be changed to reflect the new name.
was fun, but as evoked before rather not hard enough to be challenging
This is scenario is meant to be rather easy (you just finished a big battle and a duel, a really hard scenario will come soon). But I have no problem with making it a bit harder.
The Cutscene 17a Conversation with the Earl is evoked above, brings nothing for me, thus I would happily do without it, but I suspect that you need it for some reason to come, maybe.
It is a small inside into Clare's mind about her priorities. Also I want to have the same number of scenarios in both paths.
The scenario 18a Damsel in Distress was a very good surprise: original, fun, globally well designed in gameplay and drawn on map, just enough challenging, with things (rune teleport) new to understand how they work and understand how to deal with them.
Oh, so many compliments, thanks.
I don't understand the island with just 3 villages, less so that they already belong to us (red flag). Oh, perhaps: is it for us to heal? for players who had not advanced mages to healer? Very bad choice indeed... ;-) (this may also explain the big number of turns)
Yes, they are here for healing. It is better in my opinion that expecting you to heave 2 healers. I usually have at least 1 but some player may prefer different strategies.

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 3:42 pm

Well, I have an idea about the "duel" scene, the fight between Clare & the assassin. First, it would be launched by an event that should at best trigger whenever Clare moves outside a village, or at a given turn if this doesn't happen before (it depends on the way the players does it, indeed). Then, another assassin would show up and (animation) both would "sandwich" Clare (block her with ZoC on opposite sides). This is WML magic. Then, you can let things be played and CLare die "naturally" without WML magic (if needed, keep the surprising slow effect on first assassin). To connect this with the story, to justify it, and to a limited point with the scene to come with Haldar, I imagine a short dialog at Clare's death:

[1st assassin:] Oh, it is so pleasant to see you dying, dear Clare! Isn't it, brother?
[2st assassin:] Oh, yes it is! and to know her outlaw friend will be crying.
[1st assassin:] Oh yes, him! so proud and happy to kill our little brother.
[2st assassin:] And the dark sorcerer will miss her too... (blah blah)

...and the rest of the scenario:
[enters Haldar]
[short dialog] (between Haldar & Clare)
[fight] (between liches and assassins)

The main point of the dialog is to connect the scene with elements of the story we already know or we do not know yet (blah blah). But first, to justify the event in itself, the assassins are brothers, either in the simple sense of the word or kinds of souls brothers, or maybe there is a kind of assassin brotherhood by orcs, just let players launch their imagination on this; same point about the "little brother", which connects the scene with Lemyr. Maybe the words are enough for the player to understand that the 2nd assassin talks of Lemyr, and same point about Haldar, else just develop a bit. Lemyr mentioned he hates orcs as well, and later alluded he's always pleased to fight them, "dark sorcerer" seems rather clear and also reminds of outlaw words about Haldar.

I suspect, because the absence of any logic, natural or otherwise, of Haldar desperately wanting Clare alive (and following his path?), is just too much, that there is same hidden connexion or purpose, which we will discover later. And this is the reason of (blah blah). This should allude, and only allude, to revelations to come, if any. Else, if I'm wrong[*], maybe just let the last words as are: "And the dark sorcerer will miss her too...". (too bad we cannot have characters laugh! :lol: )

If you like the idea, just use it! I count on you and other players too improve it; and probably to add some words by Clare herself, one or two replies in between (she's not totally dead yet, obviously, since the first assassin talks to her, thus may still say a few words).

[*] Then the story may have a very weak hole, even more since Clare taking the path of lich "evil" necromancy seems to be the very main thread of the storyline of "For Power" altogether.

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by denispir » November 20th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Yes, they are here for healing. It is better in my opinion that expecting you to heave 2 healers. I usually have at least 1 but some player may prefer different strategies.
Yes, you are very right in my opinion, let players follow their styles instead of imposing, unless otherwise needed (for the story itself, or for gameplay reasons). It is harder for you because you must think "widely" (I for one would probably never think at a player not jumping on the chance to have a healer[*]) and in advance... But it makes for more solid and enjoyable campaigns, certainly, and this for all instead of just for an elite, or a given "race" of players ;) .

[*] I advanced both mages to healers because did not know if I would have a chance later. I was right, but just by accidentally. 3 healers is my base when I can normally recruit the base unit, shaman or mage, in which case I recruit many many, half of my recruits at least (yes!), the others (real fighters) being here mainly to protect, but then I advance no more half of them to healer, the rest being magical killers. Like many players, I discovered the overpower of such heaker/magic(/slowing) lines when playing TLoW, where you lose all units but ones of the shaman line. Then replayed and (like others) recruited only shamans just for fun except for a few "protector" fighters (which become rather unimportant in fact as soon as several shamans advance, and then nearly useless when they fly).

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » November 20th, 2017, 5:05 pm

I was thinking about your idea but for some reason I do no like it at all (though I have no idea why). Actually I do not even get what are you trying to connect by that. Maybe it is just caused by not having enough sleep but could you try to explain it more?
Also, I have tried just making the assassin level 3 and with some luck, he managed to kill Clare at turn 2 :D. (But I did not run away and fought him and got slowed). I will try it a few more times (also with Clare on level 4) but for now, it looks like a good option to me.

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » March 22nd, 2018, 7:51 pm

For whoever is interested, I am rewritting introduction of Chapter 1. My goal is not just improving the writting but also elaborating on Clare's backstory (which is very much needed). I have opened a pull request for the changes: https://github.com/konecnyjakub/For_Power/pull/32. I do not consider it a final version, actually feedback is very welcome.

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Re: For Power (0.6.4.1)

Post by James_The_Invisible » May 6th, 2018, 2:00 pm

For Power is now on 1.14 add-ons server. I also decided to drop support for older versions of Wesnoth (1.12 and 1.13). That means that the next version (with at least 1 new scenario) will be only for Wesnoth 1.14. The current plan is to release it at by the end of this month but it can change (in both directions).

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