The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1207
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » August 16th, 2018, 3:05 am

I'm not sure, to be honest. I know the AI does aggressively go after units that are about to level up, but that doesn't sound like it applies here? Maybe it thought it could do more damage to the steelclad than the shaman/initiate? Though that's still weird if it could've killed them...
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Sadaharu
Posts: 137
Joined: December 13th, 2017, 11:39 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Sadaharu » August 16th, 2018, 3:08 am

I don't know, but I've just been playing The White Troll and I had an Elvish Hero one experience point away from promotion and the AI insisted on first sending a Shaman to entangle him (and undo the damage by promoting him) so I'll just put it down to the AI being a weirdo.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1207
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » August 16th, 2018, 4:13 am

Attacking units close to levelling is intentional - that was a behaviour explicitly added in 1.14. If you think it could be improved you should probably talk to mattsc about it.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Konrad2
Forum Regular
Posts: 975
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 6:30 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Konrad2 » August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 12:14 am
What do you mean? Are you expecting the bonus objective to disappear once it's completed, or what?
Exactly. :D I have to admit, I'm used to it, because pretty much everyone is doing that. :doh:
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: I... don't have an answer for that really? Does something about it strike you as odd?
It does strike me as odd that the elves (who in the next scenario agree that 'the undead are a travesty to be destroyed without question'), would just leave the cave while those very undead are still alive. Especially when you decide to ally with the orcs, which means that those undead would report that alliance to their master who you don't want to know about this.
It's also odd that the undead would just let them go. ._.
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: I actually hadn't thought that far... but I imagine their proximity to the swamp is part of it.
...I guess that those are some shady Elves with lots of infamy then.
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: Huh? What are you talking about? Doesn't that happen on every scenario?
Spoiler:
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: This is just a guess though.
It's a correct guess.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 2:01 am
Thinking about it, I suddenly wonder if switching to an enter hex event might have caused that. In particular, apparently enter hex can trigger if someone moves over the unit on that space, which might be able to explain what you're observing.
That would make sense. Frogs are also the only ones that can move around there freely, triggering it more than once in a single turn, leading to this apocalypse...
Sadaharu wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 1:53 am
As an eternal optimist, I must point out that the frogs mean more XP, because if there are Orcs, they'll fight the frogs while I fight the higher-level undead, and if there aren't any Orcs, well, it's simply more XP. ;)
As a realist I'd like to point out that you lose when the allied Orc leader dies. ._.
I am a Ghost: I drain the life energy from other people to survive and am hated/feared by regular people. Non-regular people don't like me either though.

Can-ned_Food
Posts: 201
Joined: December 17th, 2015, 10:27 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Can-ned_Food » August 16th, 2018, 7:36 am

Konrad2 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: I... don't have an answer for that really? Does something about it strike you as odd?
It does strike me as odd that the elves (who in the next scenario agree that 'the undead are a travesty to be destroyed without question'), would just leave the cave while those very undead are still alive. Especially when you decide to ally with the orcs, which means that those undead would report that alliance to their master who you don't want to know about this.
It's also odd that the undead would just let them go. ._.
It was years ago when I played this, and that was the old edition. However, it seems to me that there is a distinction between destroying “without question” and going too far out of their way to destroy.
They also have far more pressing concerns at hand, as I seem to remember a few characters are wont to remind the others when they decide to pursue the side quests.

As for not wanting any undead to pass on word about the alliance: maybe a dialogue could address that. It is also possible that it was oversight on the part of the elves.

User avatar
Eagle_11
Posts: 754
Joined: November 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Eagle_11 » August 16th, 2018, 8:20 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 4:13 am
Attacking units close to levelling is intentional - that was a behaviour explicitly added in 1.14. If you think it could be improved you should probably talk to mattsc about it.
Expectation: AI would asess if the enemy unit that is about to levelup 'got caught in the open'(eg. is on low to normal defense, prioritization starting from lowest), then choose the unit that would hit hardest against it factoring in attributes of both units and then send that in an attempt kill it off. (this is actually far longer but shortened it)
Reality: AI zergs the unit on high defence with any unit in radius, graciously feeding it the xp to level(and survive).

mattsc
Posts: 1062
Joined: October 13th, 2010, 6:14 pm
Location: Wandering, mostly aimlessly

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by mattsc » August 16th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Eagle_11 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 8:20 am
Expectation: AI would asess if the enemy unit that is about to levelup 'got caught in the open'(eg. is on low to normal defense, prioritization starting from lowest), then choose the unit that would hit hardest against it factoring in attributes of both units and then send that in an attempt kill it off. (this is actually far longer but shortened it)
Reality: AI zergs the unit on high defence with any unit in radius, graciously feeding it the xp to level(and survive).
Nope. It's not that simple. Here's what the AI does with enemy units close to leveling (taken from here):

Code: Select all

-- Evaluation process:
--
-- Find all enemy units that could be caused to level up by an attack
--  - If only units that would cause them to level up can attack, CA score = 100,010.
--    This means the attack will be done before the default AI attacks, so that AI
--    units do not get used otherwise by the default AI.
--  - If units that would not cause a leveling can also attack, CA score = 99,990,
--    meaning we see whether the default AI attacks that unit with one of those first.
-- We also check whether it is possible to move an own unit out of the way
--
-- Attack rating:
-- 0. If the CTD (chance to die) of the AI unit is larger than the value of
--    aggression for the side, do not do the attack
-- 1. Otherwise, if the attack might result in a kill, do that preferentially:
--     rating = CTD of defender - CTD of attacker
-- 2. Otherwise, if the enemy is poisoned, do not attack (wait for it
--    weaken and attack on a later turn)
-- 3. Otherwise, calculate damage done to enemy (as if it were not leveling) and
--    own unit, expressed in partial loss of unit value (gold) and minimize both.
--    Damage to enemy is minimized because we want to level it with the weakest AI unit,
--    so that we can follow up with stronger units. In addition, use of poison or
--    slow attacks is strongly discouraged. See code for exact equations.
SP campaigns: Galuldur's First Journey (1.12 & 1.14) & Grnk the Mighty (1.10 & 1.12)
AI experiments: Micro AIs (wiki, forum thread, known/fixed bugs), Fred, AI-demos add-on

#wesnoth-dev.2018-??-??.log:< c?????> mattsc, I think you broke Vultraz.

User avatar
octalot
Code Contributor
Posts: 203
Joined: July 17th, 2010, 7:40 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by octalot » August 16th, 2018, 11:14 pm

Can-ned_Food wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:36 am
However, it seems to me that there is a distinction between destroying “without question” and going too far out of their way to destroy.
They also have far more pressing concerns at hand, as I seem to remember a few characters are wont to remind the others when they decide to pursue the side quests.
I feel the same as Konrad2 about this, it seems weird that the elves might not kill Malcorn in S4. It doesn't seem a sidequest, given that he's one of the major enemies who will be fought again in the Dread Marsh if he isn't killed in S4. The orc could tell them about him, and that he's likely to be defending Kaden Kreuz.

Minor dialogue comment: in S7, if the sonofgragchak is leading the orcs then "(gasp) Did you hear that? He plans to kill his own brother!" should say "nephew" instead.

Konrad2
Forum Regular
Posts: 975
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 6:30 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Konrad2 » August 16th, 2018, 11:27 pm

octalot wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Minor dialogue comment: in S7, if the sonofgragchak is leading the orcs then "(gasp) Did you hear that? He plans to kill his own brother!" should say "nephew" instead.
I believe it should be 'uncle', because, if I recall correctly, this line is followed by 'something something he deserves it because he is a necromancer something'.
I am a Ghost: I drain the life energy from other people to survive and am hated/feared by regular people. Non-regular people don't like me either though.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1207
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » August 17th, 2018, 12:17 am

Konrad2 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am
Celtic_Ministrel wrote: I... don't have an answer for that really? Does something about it strike you as odd?
It does strike me as odd that the elves (who in the next scenario agree that 'the undead are a travesty to be destroyed without question'), would just leave the cave while those very undead are still alive. Especially when you decide to ally with the orcs, which means that those undead would report that alliance to their master who you don't want to know about this.
It's also odd that the undead would just let them go. ._.
Okay. I'll think about adding some dialogue to explain this whole situation if you don't kill Malcorn.
Konrad2 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am
...I guess that those are some shady Elves with lots of infamy then.
:lol:
Konrad2 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am
Spoiler:
Ah, I see what you mean now. It's nothing to do with proclaiming you victorious - both versions do that. The difference is one is missing the carryover gold summary. This happens because you don't get any carryover gold from scenario 5.

And yes, that familicide comment from the elves should say uncle, not nephew, if you killed Graktar. I'll fix that.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Sadaharu
Posts: 137
Joined: December 13th, 2017, 11:39 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Sadaharu » August 17th, 2018, 3:42 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 4:13 am
Attacking units close to levelling is intentional - that was a behaviour explicitly added in 1.14. If you think it could be improved you should probably talk to mattsc about it.
I actually will, since it sometimes makes the game easier in a way that it shouldn't.
Konrad2 wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 7:29 am
Sadaharu wrote:
August 16th, 2018, 1:53 am
As an eternal optimist, I must point out that the frogs mean more XP, because if there are Orcs, they'll fight the frogs while I fight the higher-level undead, and if there aren't any Orcs, well, it's simply more XP. ;)
As a realist I'd like to point out that you lose when the allied Orc leader dies. ._.
A Treewalker or two can take care of that.

mattsc
Posts: 1062
Joined: October 13th, 2010, 6:14 pm
Location: Wandering, mostly aimlessly

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by mattsc » August 17th, 2018, 4:10 am

Sadaharu wrote:
August 17th, 2018, 3:42 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑
Yesterday, 20:13
Attacking units close to levelling is intentional - that was a behaviour explicitly added in 1.14. If you think it could be improved you should probably talk to mattsc about it.

I actually will, since it sometimes makes the game easier in a way that it shouldn't.
Keep in mind that the reason this was introduced was in order to make the exploit of blocking strategic positions with units 1 XP from leveling (that the AI would previously never attack) impossible. Which made the game way easier than it was meant to be. But any general rule like that will always have situations in which it will be sub-ideal, no matter how complex you make it. Overall this new behavior is a huge improvement over what it was before though.

That does not mean that it is perfect the way it is, but you'll need to come up with concrete suggestions that will improve the AI on average and not just in specific situations. I'm always happy to talk about those and try to improve the AI, but I also put my cards on the table and tell you that I get rather defensive about blanket statements like "the AI is crap". The default AI is actually pretty damned good for an all-purpose AI, but you only learn to appreciate that after you've tried to work on it for a while (and I'm talking about the AI that was in place long before I ever tried meddling with it, so I am not defensive about somebody criticizing my work). :)

Also, if you do so, please open a separate thread for this. We've already hijacked the BCoA thread too much.
SP campaigns: Galuldur's First Journey (1.12 & 1.14) & Grnk the Mighty (1.10 & 1.12)
AI experiments: Micro AIs (wiki, forum thread, known/fixed bugs), Fred, AI-demos add-on

#wesnoth-dev.2018-??-??.log:< c?????> mattsc, I think you broke Vultraz.

User avatar
Sadaharu
Posts: 137
Joined: December 13th, 2017, 11:39 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Sadaharu » August 17th, 2018, 5:06 am

Oh! You got here before I could PM you.
mattsc wrote:Keep in mind that the reason this was introduced was in order to make the exploit of blocking strategic positions with units 1 XP from leveling (that the AI would previously never attack) impossible. Which made the game way easier than it was meant to be. But any general rule like that will always have situations in which it will be sub-ideal, no matter how complex you make it. Overall this new behavior is a huge improvement over what it was before though.
Since I've never tried to mod this game yet I sometimes don't know whether some issue is just with the one mod or with the entire game -1.14 unmodded AI is something I have yet to tangle with.

In my experience in other games (and yes, I should confine comments here henceforth to the actual BCoA), whatever all-purpose solution the mainline developers of a game manage to come up with is often rendered invalid by one daring modder and then we're back to zero -hence why all AIs get called artificial idiots at some point.

Regarding this particular issue, I'll plead super-guilty to all charges of blocking passageways with Dwarvish Lords one or two XPs away from their fourth or fifth AMLA. ;)

-------------------------------
Back on topic (also, it's very-late-a.m., so I'm closing down for the night)
@Celtic_Minstrel: when do we get to see the actual Black Cross of Aleron?

Konrad2
Forum Regular
Posts: 975
Joined: November 24th, 2010, 6:30 pm

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Konrad2 » August 17th, 2018, 8:24 am

Sadaharu wrote:
August 17th, 2018, 3:42 am
A Treewalker or two can take care of that.
In that case, please explain what one or two Treewalkers can do against more than 20 Giant Frogs. :D
I am a Ghost: I drain the life energy from other people to survive and am hated/feared by regular people. Non-regular people don't like me either though.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1207
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The Black Cross of Aleron (formerly Besieged Druids)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » August 18th, 2018, 7:32 pm

I have now uploaded version 2.0.2 to the add-ons server.
Changelog:
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Post Reply