Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

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Hulavuta
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Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » June 10th, 2012, 6:07 pm

Yes everybody, I'm back from the dead! And it's finally summer, so I finally can work on this full time.

This is the new official thread for my campaign, Fossil. The old thread was this one: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=28704

I have abandoned it since there were about 24 pages, which are almost all irrelevant at this point. The art thread will remain the same, and can be found here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=29564

Big extra huge special thanks to Elvish_Hunter for running wmllint and helping me with "translating" the old 1.8 code to work for version 1.10. At the moment it is running without error on 1.10.

-------------------------

What I am working on right now:
Currently, I am in the process of rewriting most (if not all) of the dialogue, as looking back on it, it was pretty horrendous.

Additionally, I am working through some more unit changes. Specifically, the whole "new saurian skirmisher" line is going to be renamed (probably Saurian Brave ---> Saurian Warrior ----> Not Named Yet), but will remain almost identical stat-wise. The Saurian Brutes are going to undergo (once again) a massive change. One of the major complaints was that the Saurian Brutes used the same sprites as the mainline Saurian Skirmishers, and so that will be addressed and changed. They're going to be changed to a blade attack and the changes will reflect that.

--------------------------

How you can contribute:

First of all, you can always playtest and give your advice. The most important thing right now is the unit design. This campaign uses almost entirely new units and I have to see what units are overpowered, what units cover the same roles, etc. I do some of this myself but it is always good to have a second opinion and other perspectives.

Concerning actual creation, right now there are many things to be done, mainly concerning units, both art (mostly animation) and unit coding. Anyone who can do these things is very welcome to give it a shot.

The campaign is currently available on 1.8 and 1.10. The 1.8 version will not be updated (you shouldn't be running 1.8 anymore anyway :P)
Last edited by Hulavuta on June 18th, 2012, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » June 18th, 2012, 3:42 pm

Sorry it took a while, but the campaign is finally up on the add-on server for 1.10. You can download it there.

Notable Changelog:

-I rewrote most, if not all of the dialogue. Aside from making sentences look nicer, I also changed some of the stuff that is being said. This is still a WIP too, so expect it to change a bit later on.
-Story (as in, the text before the scenarios start) was changed a bit as well, to be more historically accurate and to fit in with the canon of mainline.
-Fixed most of the grammar issues, such as saying "enemie's" and there/their issues.
-Cleaned up some of the words that were sort of out of place. Most notably, I took out all instances of "crap" (or I tried to, at least)
-Changed one of the wolves (I think it was Black Fang?) that could not recruit, by adding a keep overlay to his cave. He can now recruit. With some playtesting, it does not seem to make the scenario much harder, and makes much more sense in terms of the story.
-Changed some of the names of a few things.
a. "Alyssa" is now "Haldis" (I put the name Alyssa into an Elvish name generator and that's what popped out) For some reason, I did not feel like using the name Alyssa anymore.
b. "Arix's Marsh" is now "Skizzaltix's Marsh", a reference to the old forum member, Skizzaltix (who, like many people, does not come here anymore). He was a big influence and a great help to me, so I decided to give him this honor (it helps that he had a Saurian name :P). He has stated that wouldn't really want it to be used often (as it is his name) so the one mention of it in-campaign will probably be the only. Arix will remain to be the leader of the Marsh.
c. Any instance of "Hotel Sauria" is removed. I wrote that about 2 years ago, and looking back it seems extremely silly, for multiple reasons. During Wesnoth times, Hotels are probably still called Inns, both of which seem silly for Saurians to be in anyways. Additionally, last year, (when I was NOT working on the campaign) I saw the movie "Hotel Rwanda", which makes "Hotel Sauria" look like a very silly ripoff in comparison (although the name was originally based off of Hotel California and Hotel Tango, not Hotel Rwanda)


Problems I know about or things I am going to fix soon:
-There is an error (although not a game stopping error) in the first level. I will try to fix this ASAP.
-Saurian Skirmishers (the new one) are missing a few animations, and will sometimes "transform" into actual Saurian Skirmishers (from mainline) for a frame or two. This is probably just due to the frames being in different locations than they were in 1.8
-The whole "new Saurian Skirmisher" line will be renamed in the next version. It is going to be Saurian Brave ---> Saurian Warrior (or Knight? post your vote) ---> Saurian Crusader. Of course, to avoid confusion with the mainline Skirmishers.
-Saurian Gladiators might "transform" into Saurian Gladiators from another era. (I'm not sure what era exactly, but I know it's one of the ones in Ageless Era XDDDD) I tried to fix this problem by renaming the files for the Saurian Gladiators in fossil, (changing the main frame to saurian-gladiator.png rather than just gladiator.png) and it should be fixed, but tell me if you have any problems.
-Saurian Brute line is going to get a redo (yet again). The current graphics are placeholder, and will be removed as soon as the new sprites are done (which I cannot predict when). The descriptions and whatnot of the units are not going to change until the final redo is done, because I really don't feel like going in and changing every description and message involving the Brutes more than once.
So please, don't mention that the Brute's descriptions are wrong or anything like that, it'll be fixed eventually.

Please leave your feedback below, I'll try to respond to everything :D
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Elvish_Hunter » June 30th, 2012, 9:12 am

As promised, here there is my bug report :twisted:
  • Let's start with the errors spawned from my stderr (on Windows; maybe on Linux there are even more errors, for the reason that I'll explain below).

    Code: Select all

    error display: could not open image 'units/saurians/skirmisher-attack-n1.png'
    error display: could not open image 'units/saurians/skirmisher-attack-n2.png'
    error display: could not open image 'units/saurians/skirmisher-attack1.png'
    error display: could not open image 'units/saurians/skirmisher.png'
    error wml: empty side= and no [filter_side] is deprecated, use either side=1 or [filter_side]
    error display: could not open image 'units/saurians/gladiator.png'
    20120629 23:21:03 error engine: could not de-serialize unit: 'game_error: creating unit with an empty type field'
    error audio: Could not load sound file 'squisy-hit.wav'.
    error audio: Could not load sound file 'squisy-miss.wav'.
    The "creating unit" error must be caused by some store/unstore code in Tentacles.
  • Objectives: in the 1.9 development cycle, we introduced a new tag, called [gold_carryover]. You can - and should - use it to specify in the [objectives] the percentage of early finish bonus, with a structure like this:

    Code: Select all

    [gold_carryover]
        bonus=yes
        carryover_percentage=40
    [/gold_carryover]
  • Saurian Leader and Swamp Alchemist: both units are missing the {AMLA_DEFAULT} macro, and this causes them to not have their XP bar. Also, in mainline we changed the XP requirement for units at their maximum level to be level*50 (25 for level 0 units), so the XP for both units should be modified to 100.
  • Several maps still include the deprecated flower terrain, that should be replaced with the flower overlay.
  • The Natives: the village at 2,0 (in the border) can be safely removed.
  • In Tentacles, I found several issues:
    • This side definition can be corrected:

      Code: Select all

      	[side]
              type=Tentacle of the Deep
              id=T2
              name= _ "Main Tentacle"
              side=2
              canrecruit=yes
      		no_leader=yes
      		unrenamable=yes
              recruit=
              team_name=Kraken
              user_team_name=_ "Kraken"
              gold=200
      		[modifications]
                      [object]
                          [effect]
                              apply_to=movement
                              set=0
                          [/effect]
                      [/object]
             [/modifications]
      	[/side]	
      Once that you declare the side without a leader, you don't need to declare also a leader.
    • This line (and maybe some other line) uses wrong path separators, and as such creates problems on Linux:

      Code: Select all

      image="units\human-outlaws\rogue-die-6.png"
    • You can simplify the "are all tentacles dead?" code in this way:

      Code: Select all

      [event]
      	name=die
      
      	[filter]
      		side=2
      	[/filter]
      
      	[filter_condition]
      		[not]
      			[have_unit]
      				side=2
      			[/have_unit]
      		[/not]
      	[/filter_condition]
      
      	# dialog blah blah blah
      [/event]
    • You can also replace several instances of NAMED_LOYAL_UNIT with GENERIC_UNIT: after all, Tentacles don't need a name, and since the side won't have a leader, also their upkeep is irrilevant.
    • Also, the Tentacles tend to flee on Deep Water, making them impossible to fight, and do not attack. My suggestion is to give them a suicidal AI, with this [ai] block:

      Code: Select all

      [ai]
          aggression=1.0
          caution=0.0
      [/ai]
  • Finally, the indentation is completely messed up. Do you want me to do a wmlindent run to fix it?
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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » July 10th, 2012, 2:16 pm

Downloading this now; will return with feedback later after I play it. :)

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by direfish » July 17th, 2012, 12:14 pm

I can see why you wanted to upgrade skirmishers, but your saurians just don't feel right to me.
Skirmishers are way too powerful for tiny swamp dwellers with spears. They pwn elves on any terrain, any time of the day. Brutes are even more ridiculously overpowered (they even have a ranged attack, despite their description stating otherwise).
My advice would be rather than turning saurians into scaly war-machines, try a smarter approach to scenario design.

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » July 17th, 2012, 5:06 pm

Ah, sorry for taking so long to post everyone. I will try to respond to everything now.
direfish wrote:I can see why you wanted to upgrade skirmishers, but your saurians just don't feel right to me.
Skirmishers are way too powerful for tiny swamp dwellers with spears. They pwn elves on any terrain, any time of the day. Brutes are even more ridiculously overpowered (they even have a ranged attack, despite their description stating otherwise).
My advice would be rather than turning saurians into scaly war-machines, try a smarter approach to scenario design.
Your points are valid, however I would still prefer if you were to read the changelog and the "Problems I know about or things I am going to fix soon" section. In the latter, I mention a few issues that I am already aware of and planning to fix, such as the issue with the brutes. You're not wrong (in fact, I agree with you almost completely), however it's something that I am already aware of. To be fair to you, I didn't write exactly the reasons for change or what the changes would be (stat-wise) but I would just like to assure you that it IS something I am aware of.

I plan to change the skirmishers (which will be renamed soon as well) but unfortunately, I don't have much time to be playing my own campaign to find every little thing that needs to be changed. With the entire campaign as a whole in my mind, I don't exactly see it the same as everyone else, which is why in some cases (such as balance cases like this) I don't really see problems that average players easily spot.

In any case, I am now aware of these problems, so what would be the best way to do it? Specifically, what should I change and what should I add or remove? (not pertaining to Brutes, since the current versions are much different than their next planned versions) You stated scenario design, which I assume means maps?

Moving on,
Captain_Wrathbow wrote:Downloading this now; will return with feedback later after I play it. :)
Glad to hear it :D

Moving on,
Elvish_Hunter wrote:Objectives: in the 1.9 development cycle, we introduced a new tag, called [gold_carryover]. You can - and should - use it to specify in the [objectives] the percentage of early finish bonus, with a structure like this
Hmm, I was not aware of this, however, it's not really a use to me at the moment. Currently, none of the scenarios have any gold carryover (for playtesting reasons, again). I would greatly and sincerely appreciate any playtesters who are willing to suggest better numbers of turns, and percentage of early finish bonus.
Elvish Hunter wrote:Saurian Leader and Swamp Alchemist: both units are missing the {AMLA_DEFAULT} macro, and this causes them to not have their XP bar. Also, in mainline we changed the XP requirement for units at their maximum level to be level*50 (25 for level 0 units), so the XP for both units should be modified to 100.
Hmm, okay, I was not aware of this. When those units were created 2 years ago, Captain_Wrathbow was my main unit maker person. Because of this, I am not very knowledgeable about unit WML, so I guess not so surprising that I missed those, as I made them myself. :whistle:
Elvish_Hunter wrote:Several maps still include the deprecated flower terrain, that should be replaced with the flower overlay.
Hmm, okay, I will fix that when I can. Any reason that it must be replaced?
Elvish_Hunter wrote:The Natives: the village at 2,0 (in the border) can be safely removed.
I believe I just put that there as scenery. I know it can't be captured but I felt it helped add to the look and the environment.
Elvish_Hunter wrote:Once that you declare the side without a leader, you don't need to declare also a leader.
Okay, I will get rid of that then.
Elvish_Hunter wrote:This line (and maybe some other line) uses wrong path separators, and as such creates problems on Linux:
Ah, yes. I am aware of those XD. vultraz really pounded me on it on IRC when he was playing my campaign.

I'll try to find all of the wrong path separators and change and fix them ASAP, if you could post all of the ones you know besides that one, I'd really appreciate it too :mrgreen:
Elvish_Hunter wrote:You can simplify the "are all tentacles dead?" code in this way:
Hmm, okay. I was using variables before, but I guess I can do that instead. (It was a real pain in the ass to get the variable thing working in the first place too, but oh well, guess there was an easier way out :lol2: )
Elvish_Hunter wrote:You can also replace several instances of NAMED_LOYAL_UNIT with GENERIC_UNIT: after all, Tentacles don't need a name, and since the side won't have a leader, also their upkeep is irrilevant.
Hmm, okay, I will do that too. I really liked naming the Tentacles though :lol2: but I guess it's not really that big of a deal. I never really actually had upkeep in mind but I guess it'll work anyway.
Elvish_Hunter wrote:Also, the Tentacles tend to flee on Deep Water, making them impossible to fight, and do not attack. My suggestion is to give them a suicidal AI, with this [ai] block:
I don't think I actually ever had this problem, at least not very often. I can vaguely sort of remember from 2010 that they might've if you didn't attack? I'll put in the aggression AI then, just to be on the safer side (since it apparently does happen) but just to be curious, under what circumstances did they run away? Is it if you didn't attack them first, or do they just run even if you are attacking? A replay, I guess, would be the best thing to use in this situation.
Elvish_Hunter wrote:Finally, the indentation is completely messed up. Do you want me to do a wmlindent run to fix it?
How messed up are we talking? On my end, it's a little messed up, but no more than just a few spacebar spaces. I don't see a downside to running wmlindent, but I am just curious if the indentation looks different than mine on your end.

^_^
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by direfish » July 17th, 2012, 10:09 pm

Hulavuta wrote:Your points are valid, however I would still prefer if you were to read the changelog and the "Problems I know about or things I am going to fix soon" section.
Sorry mate, i've no idea where to look for your changelog.
Hulavuta wrote:In any case, I am now aware of these problems, so what would be the best way to do it? Specifically, what should I change and what should I add or remove? (not pertaining to Brutes, since the current versions are much different than their next planned versions) You stated scenario design, which I assume means maps?
I think that many players were curious to d/l your campaign because it features saurians. I know i was really sold on it. I thought "Hey, i'll get to play as an underdog race and will have to use my brains to prevail". From other campaigns i remember saurians as seemingly weak put surprisingly fearsome and devastating foes due to their numbers, their skirmishing and good damage output and in some cases clever map design. I kinda expected to walk in their shoes in this campaign, but instead i got overpowered units who just needed to charge and steamroll the enemies. What i would love to see in this campaign is building on saurians' racial peculiarities. Terrain use, reliance on numbers and superior maneuverability, time management (right now they're so strong, that i didn't even have to regroup during the daylight). So i'd love it if weaker saurians were reintroduced, but scenarios were designed in such a way that a player could still win using saurian trademark tactics.

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » July 17th, 2012, 11:42 pm

As for the changelog and other things I am aware of, you can find them in the second post. Perhaps I should put the current list in the OP for convenience's sake as well.

Hmm, I really like your ideas here! :D Going in even more specifically, what changes would you make to the units themselves? Decrease/increase movement, add/subtract attack, hit points, etc.

I would really love the campaign to become more like this, however, I'd need to find a great way to rebalance things without having to do a complete redesign or remake.
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The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Elvish_Hunter » July 20th, 2012, 4:39 pm

Hulavuta wrote:I would greatly and sincerely appreciate any playtesters who are willing to suggest better numbers of turns, and percentage of early finish bonus.
I'd suggest you to stick with the default 40% + next scenario starting gold.
Hulavuta wrote:Hmm, okay, I will fix that when I can. Any reason that it must be replaced?
Because that terrain is scheduled for removal. Of course, nothing bad will happen on 1.10, as stuff is never removed in stable series.
Hulavuta wrote:I'll try to find all of the wrong path separators and change and fix them ASAP, if you could post all of the ones you know besides that one, I'd really appreciate it too :mrgreen:
I thought that wmlscope reported all the suspicious lines, but I'll look at it. :wink:
Hulavuta wrote:How messed up are we talking? On my end, it's a little messed up, but no more than just a few spacebar spaces. I don't see a downside to running wmlindent, but I am just curious if the indentation looks different than mine on your end.
Well, in my editor the lines appeared in wrong places, because our standard is 1 tab = 4 spaces. Even if you don't want a wmlindent run, every serious text editor has the option to convert tabs in spaces. Doing this will be a great improvement in code readability. :)
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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » July 29th, 2012, 7:19 pm

RL has kept me off the forums for the last week and a half... it has taken me much too long to get back here with feedback, but I am here now...

First, a very minor misspelling: somewhere in the first scenario, (I don't recall exactly where) the word "perimeter" was spelled "perimiter". (the word was used several times, but only misspelled once, I think)

Second, another minor typo: on the desert scenario where you are fighting wolves, the outlaw leader says something like "these saurians will be no thread to us."

Third, another one: in the first talk-only scenario, Inarix says "I trust your judgement". (should be "judgment")

Now on to the less trivial things: my main complaint is that, on the whole, the campaign is much too easy, IMO. When you get around to adding other difficulty levels, the current one should be the "Easy" level. In pretty much every scenario, I was able to just steamroll the enemy with little resistance.



I didn't find Saurian Brutes to be very useful; at least, they're probably not worth it for their cost. IMO, they ought to be more powerful. (I noticed that in the unit description, they have the ability notes at the end for Charge; are they supposed to have Charge? That would definitely help.)

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Drakefriend » July 29th, 2012, 8:01 pm

Captain_Wrathbow wrote:Third, another one: in the first talk-only scenario, Inarix says "I trust your judgement". (should be "judgment")
Incorrect, judgement is a viable spelling, and normal in Britain.
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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » July 29th, 2012, 9:26 pm

Perhaps it is different in Britain then.

In the U.S. it is an extremely frequently misspelled word, and "judgment" is the correct spelling by every dictionary I've ever checked. (and I've corrected a lot of people on this and had to prove it to them from a lot of dictionaries; it's kind of a big pet peeve of mine.)

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if, since the spelling "judgement" is so commonly misused, we eventually get to the point where it is generally accepted as being okay.




The good news is, Wesnoth is international, so if it is an acceptable alternate spelling outside of the U.S., it's fine for Wesnoth. ^_^

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » July 30th, 2012, 2:36 am

Hmm, okay, I see most of these things were mentioned by direfish and Elvish_Hunter as well, but I will try to restate the the specific things.

Most of the gameplay problems I am aware of. The problem isn't so much that I'm not aware, more that I'm not so sure exactly how to go about fixing it. Elvish_Hunter suggested a few things, such as adjusting the gold carryover and such.

I'm aware that the campaign is far too easy, I agree as well. Unfortunately I'm not exactly the best person for going about fixing that. If you could suggest solutions (rather than simply stating the problem, which I am most likely already aware of but unable to fix) that would be greatly appreciated :mrgreen: Same thing goes for improving the brutes. I know that a lot of their information and other stuff relating to them is wrong, (check the "stuff I am aware of" section in the 2nd post) but I am too busy/lazy to change it yet, and will not change it until I reach the final version, to prevent having to go through the descriptions more than once. But it IS on my list.

All spelling errors will be fixed as they come. I am actually aware of the whole judgement/judgment split. I've been playing too much Yu-Gi-Oh, and with all of the Solemn Judgment activations, I've become more aware and observant about it being spelled like that basically everywhere. Unfortunately, muscle memory makes me type it as judgement normally, but I will be on the look out for it now XD

In any case, I will fix it soon.

Right now, the top priority is fixing the brutes, which, as I said before, I'm not exactly sure how to do. At this point, it's really up to you guys as the players, as creating the campaign gives me sort of a non-reliable or sort of less observant view on gameplay mechanics such as these (if this makes any sense to you, I'm not exactly sure how i can describe it) Sometimes it's better when a person only, or in some of your cases, mostly, sees the campaign at a gameplay level. (again, really don't know how to put that, o_o I hope it was close)
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The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » July 30th, 2012, 3:08 pm

About brutes...
I don't consider myself good at balancing at all, but in my limited knowledge of the subject, I would suggest giving them Charge, and raising their HP a little more. Maybe even lower the cost one gold, but I'm not sure about that.

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Re: Fossil: The Great Journey (BACK FROM THE DEAD !@#$%^&)

Post by Hulavuta » July 31st, 2012, 12:01 am

Well, perhaps I should explain what my current plans for changing them are.

I plan to give them a blade based attack, rather than the pierce one they have right now. I'm also planning to change it from 2 strikes to 3, although with a weaker base damage. What changes would you make off of this?
F:tGJ, Saurian Campaign
The Southern Chains, a fanfic
“The difference between winners and champions is that champions are more consistent."
~Sierra

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