Antar, Son of Rheor [Development Thread]

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homunculus
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by homunculus » November 23rd, 2012, 7:54 pm

I thought I'd try return some of the favor, although it was clear the maps were too large for me.

The campaign info says:
'hordes of Orcs and Endless Undead'
made me wonder why 'hordes' was not capitalized.
I mean, anyone who has played a strategy game as orcs or undead knows that they are not really endless.
If it is supposed to be this victimized stereotype in hardcore form, then does it mean that the hordes of orcs are less endless than the undead?
Also, as far as I understand, knights who protect the commoners should attack undead because they are undead, not because someone's father got killed.
It was humorous, though, this reason and that reason, and at the point when it turned out father also had been killed I thought that in every scenario there is probably going to be some additional such reason until in the final scenario it turns out the end boss (some litch, I guess) had also stolen Antar's sweet roll and I was rather disappointed when piling up the reasons discontinued :P

There is a lot of dialog happening at some events when player is moving units or fighting, and this caused several reloads to read the dialog, because I was already making the next click when the dialog appeared (saw the dialog for a fraction of a second, only).

The dialog was mostly quite fun, and although there were constant alerts about noticing unit this and unit that, the fog on the large maps created some feeling of discovery, including discovering that there are undead on the map felt like discovering that there are undead on the map.

Rust-odor sounds like a cool name for a dwarf. Or was it analogous to toreador?

One thing I learned myself is that it is a good idea to take notes with pen and paper from the start, because I forgot some comments.

Scenario 1.
General issues a command to Lord Rheor to mobilize troops, that sounded very strange.
Maybe he could have asked 'My Lord, should we mobilize our troops?'
It looked like an undead campaign, so I recruited mostly horsemen with the intention of advancing them to paladins (got a few paladins when I reached the elves), especially as I seemed to have only one healer.
But the zombies are good for suicide spam (a tactic I never liked very much, even made a macro against it some years ago), and daytime is a good time for the zombies to suicide.
I recruited archers at first, in order to block the zombies from killing my knights, because archers do not kill zombies with retaliation and therefore the zombies cannot kill the archers easily.
The message about the defensive location was in my opinion misleading because soon it turned out the undead were indeed endless, and I had to restart and spread out my line more.
The beginning of this scenario with the few units was more difficult than the rest of the campaign (until reaching elves). Was playing on normal.

Scenario 3.
Someone says: 'wolves!', and the next message is 'beware, they came in packs!' and this sounds really strange. I mean, not that it is 'came' rather than 'come', but the 'beware' part. It is an army of knights, 'wolves, beware!' might be fitting, as the other meaning is that wolves should keep their distance if they wanted to be able to chase rabbits the next day (though I guess the players would not understand it this way). On the other hand Wesnoth wolves are a bit like tigers, so maybe a warning about some wild wolves being powerful would have caused less bewilderment.
Did the player have heavy infantry in the previous versions as the dialog in the end says?

Scenario 5.
When I saw the size of that map I quit.
By the way, what was the intention of changing the original 'subtle plan' to 'simple plan' in the dialog?
There seems to be something strange about the team color of the orcs in the south-west corner of the map.
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by Adamant14 » November 23rd, 2012, 8:58 pm

homunculus wrote:The campaign info says:
'hordes of Orcs and Endless Undead'
made me wonder why 'hordes' was not capitalized.
I mean, anyone who has played a strategy game as orcs or undead knows that they are not really endless.
If it is supposed to be this victimized stereotype in hardcore form, then does it mean that the hordes of orcs are less endless than the undead?
I think there are a lot more Undead than Orcs in this campaign, so it is probably right that 'hordes' is not capitalized. But maybe I am wrong.
My English is not that good.
homunculus wrote:Also, as far as I understand, knights who protect the commoners should attack undead because they are undead, not because someone's father got killed.
There is no hint that Antars father is already killed. :wink:
Antar fights those Undead because they attacked him, and his neighbours.
Isn't that a very good reason?
homunculus wrote:It was humorous, though, this reason and that reason, and at the point when it turned out father also had been killed I thought that in every scenario there is probably going to be some additional such reason until in the final scenario it turns out the end boss (some litch, I guess) had also stolen Antar's sweet roll and I was rather disappointed when piling up the reasons discontinued :P
:lol2: That is true, but again, Antars fathers fate is unknown at the first part of the campaign, no one told that he is dead. :)
homunculus wrote:There is a lot of dialog happening at some events when player is moving units or fighting, and this caused several reloads to read the dialog, because I was already making the next click when the dialog appeared (saw the dialog for a fraction of a second, only).
:hmm: What can I do here?
homunculus wrote:The dialog was mostly quite fun, and although there were constant alerts about noticing unit this and unit that, the fog on the large maps created some feeling of discovery, including discovering that there are undead on the map felt like discovering that there are undead on the map.
:lol2:
homunculus wrote:Rust-odor sounds like a cool name for a dwarf. Or was it analogous to toreador?
Sorry, but I don't know what you are talking about? :(
The names of my Dwarves are: Garulf, Grimbold, Toughkon, Dunamus, Dunamil and Dorobald
homunculus wrote:Scenario 1.
General issues a command to Lord Rheor to mobilize troops, that sounded very strange.
Maybe he could have asked 'My Lord, should we mobilize our troops?'
It was intended more as a 'good advice' of an experienced soldier (who is almost a good friend to Lord Rheor), than a command. But anyway, you aint the first who complains about that, so I will change it. Thank you.
homunculus wrote:The message about the defensive location was in my opinion misleading because soon it turned out the undead were indeed endless, and I had to restart and spread out my line more.
But, that is the best place on the map for defending, isn't it?
homunculus wrote:Scenario 3.
Someone says: 'wolves!', and the next message is 'beware, they came in packs!' and this sounds really strange. I mean, not that it is 'came' rather than 'come', but the 'beware' part. It is an army of knights, 'wolves, beware!' might be fitting, as the other meaning is that wolves should keep their distance if they wanted to be able to chase rabbits the next day (though I guess the players would not understand it this way). On the other hand Wesnoth wolves are a bit like tigers, so maybe a warning about some wild wolves being powerful would have caused less bewilderment.
:lol2: Yes, that is true. I will change that the way you suggested. Thank you.
homunculus wrote:Did the player have heavy infantry in the previous versions as the dialog in the end says?
The dialogue says that the player can recruit HI from now on. Btw. In earlier version the player had HI on his recall list from the first scenario on.
homunculus wrote:Scenario 5.
When I saw the size of that map I quit.
No need to. This scenario is very easy to beat. :)
homunculus wrote: By the way, what was the intention of changing the original 'subtle plan' to 'simple plan' in the dialog?
To make it a little bit different to the original. :P
homunculus wrote:There seems to be something strange about the team color of the orcs in the south-west corner of the map.
The colour is ugly I know. It is a custom team colour made by me. Me alone bears the responsibility for this.

Thank you for the feedback. :)
Hope I could convince you to play the remaining four scenarios. :)
___________________________________________________________________________________

@marecki
Thank you for the replay. It helps me really a lot to see how other people play this campaign.
May I ask you for further replays?
Ideally replays of 'first time played' scenarios.
___________________________________________________________________________________

And to everybody here who reads this:
Please post some more replays here.
It really helps me a lot to make this campaign better. :)
Thank you.
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TheScribe
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by TheScribe » November 23rd, 2012, 9:37 pm

I'll pull out my old replays soon. ;)
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.

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homunculus
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by homunculus » November 23rd, 2012, 10:24 pm

Adamant14 wrote:
homunculus wrote:Also, as far as I understand, knights who protect the commoners should attack undead because they are undead, not because someone's father got killed.
There is no hint that Antars father is already killed. :wink:
Antar fights those Undead because they attacked him, and his neighbours.
Isn't that a very good reason?
homunculus wrote:It was humorous, though, this reason and that reason, and at the point when it turned out father also had been killed I thought that in every scenario there is probably going to be some additional such reason until in the final scenario it turns out the end boss (some litch, I guess) had also stolen Antar's sweet roll and I was rather disappointed when piling up the reasons discontinued :P
:lol2: That is true, but again, Antars fathers fate is unknown at the first part of the campaign, no one told that he is dead. :)
Those two things were meant as one, not separate. Ok, betrayed, not killed. So it is about rescuing the father in distress this time.

Meaning that the knights already had all the reason they needed, but father being betrayed sounded like now they got the reason to kill undead which they were lacking previously. But it is common in many campaigns, not only is the enemy killing and plundering, but also they killed the hero's family (if they had known, they would probably have let the granny and grandpa enjoy their old age).
Adamant14 wrote:
homunculus wrote:There is a lot of dialog happening at some events when player is moving units or fighting, and this caused several reloads to read the dialog, because I was already making the next click when the dialog appeared (saw the dialog for a fraction of a second, only).
:hmm: What can I do here?
There probably isn't much to do about the 'sighted' events, unless you want to create a dialog event inside the 'sighted' event and delay it until side turn, or something. I avoided such thing in my own campaign, so I didn't think of solutions much. Maybe a little delay or maybe just scrolling the screen to the sighted unit before the dialog appears would work, but I haven't tried it out.
Adamant14 wrote:
homunculus wrote:Rust-odor sounds like a cool name for a dwarf. Or was it analogous to toreador?
Sorry, but I don't know what you are talking about? :(
Sorry, that was another campaign I tried, Start of the War. Messed it up big time.
Adamant14 wrote:
homunculus wrote:The message about the defensive location was in my opinion misleading because soon it turned out the undead were indeed endless, and I had to restart and spread out my line more.
But, that is the best place on the map for defending, isn't it?
Sure thing it is the best defensive location, so I defended, and soon I found out I was loosing because I should have been more offensive instead. And the enemy turns took a long time to wait for. How is the first time player supposed to know that the undead being endless is more than just flavor text?
Adamant14 wrote:The dialogue says that the player can recruit HI from now on. Btw. In earlier version the player had HI on his recall list from the first scenario on.
I completely missed that.
Adamant14 wrote:
homunculus wrote:Scenario 5.
When I saw the size of that map I quit.
No need to. This scenario is very easy to beat. :)
I already walked about 25 units for about 25 turns in the previous scenario. There are players who play large maps, but I am not so much into the logistics. Though the distances might not be so unreachable as I got mounted units mostly.

Now I am wondering if the undead saved the elves, in a way.
If the undead had not attacked the humans, the orcs would have conquered the elves.
Maybe the undead boss was an elf sympathizer : )))
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by marecki » November 23rd, 2012, 10:49 pm

Here's the first batch, Lord Veogwyn replay is corrupted for some reason.
All scenarios are "first time played."
Second batch tomorrow, because I'm tired from watching myself play (man, that came out wrong) to check if files are not corrupted. :)
Attachments
ASoR-Through_The_Goblin_..._replay.gz
(38.73 KiB) Downloaded 143 times
ASoR-Lord_Othar_replay.gz
(42.02 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
ASoR-Attack_Of_The_Undead_replay.gz
(60.32 KiB) Downloaded 150 times

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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by Adamant14 » November 24th, 2012, 9:09 pm

Thank you for the replays. :)
You are a very good player.
Your strategies leaves nothing to complain about.
Watching the replays, it is hard to believe they are 'first time played'. :P
Are the scenarios too easy for you?
I recognize that I am a lousy player when I watch how 'easy' you beat my campaign on the first try.

EDIT:
A question about 'scenario 03 Lord Othar'
Why did you recall/recruit so few units to attack Lord Othar?
You had enough gold left to recall/recruit more.
The map was fogged, you had no idea what awaits you.
Did you read Taptap's review (here in this thread) about the scenario, before you played it?
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by marecki » November 25th, 2012, 12:24 am

Adamant14 wrote:Your strategies leaves nothing to complain about.
Watching the replays, it is hard to believe they are 'first time played'.
Thank you. Believe it or not, (almost) all scenarios are first attempts, because I always try to ironman in turn based games. I.e. only allow myself to reload, from turn 1, on defeat (obviously), or if I screw up really bad (lose most loyal units for example). In your campaign, that happened in "The Dwarves" and in "Revenge" (two reloads), but that replay is also corrupt/out of sync (any idea what's causing it by the way? It says "Error details: illegal disband").
Adamant14 wrote:Are the scenarios too easy for you?
Definitely not, I think they're actually well-balanced for normal. Note that a bunch of units died already in the first scenario and I finished on turn 29/30! It was so much fun, better than any mainline stuff. 8)
Adamant14 wrote:Why did you recall/recruit so few units to attack Lord Othar? Did you read Taptap's review (here in this thread) about the scenario, before you played it?
Nope, I only found this thread after downloading and playing the add-on. I recalled fewer units there, because I expected a casual reach-a-spot mission, all those revenants caught me off-guard. Normally I overrecruit.
Adamant14 wrote:when I watch how 'easy' you beat my campaign on the first try.
Eh, not really. I had to reload in "Revenge" and still lost some leveled elves by the end, because I pushed too fast. And, as previously discussed, the last mission kicked my ass on first try.
Anyway, here's the second part (not much to watch really, Elvish Outpost seems perfectly balanced, if anything I would give orc leaders a bit more gold each).
Attachments
ASoR-Dwarven_Pass_replay.gz
(48.35 KiB) Downloaded 127 times
ASoR-The_Elvish_Outpost_replay.gz
(66.74 KiB) Downloaded 116 times

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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by Adamant14 » November 25th, 2012, 10:52 am

Thank you for the replays.

About 'Elvish Outpost':
Two things I noticed.
1. The Elvish Hunter
You didn't care much about the 'Elvish Hunter' units. Except the loyal one, non survived.
Didn't you noticed that you had no Elvish Hunter's on the recruit list?
There was a hint on the beginning of the scenario: "Note: This is a special unit. A Elvish Hunter. You can not recruit this unit type"

2. The Yeti
Seems you were unprepared for the Yeti, when he suddenly appeared.
What did you think about the caged Yeti, as you first saw him?

About Dwarven Pass
Seems the scenario was no problem for you.
What about the Yeti?
Was the hint ("Look at these tracks. What in Wesnoth has such big feet?") enough to warn you?
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by marecki » November 25th, 2012, 1:49 pm

Adamant14 wrote:You didn't care much about the 'Elvish Hunter' units. Except the loyal one, none survived.
Oh yeah, still think I played well? :D I read the warning at the start and should have probably protected those hunters better, but to be honest, I didn't think I would get to play elves again later on. Also, while they're great units, you still have shamans for slow. By the way, I really like the idea of useful units as a limited resource - more campaigns should do that.
Adamant14 wrote:Was the hint ("Look at these tracks. What in Wesnoth has such big feet?") enough to warn you?
Of course, I knew there would be a yeti (in fact I expected more than one). But there's not much you can do here: most units can't maneuver in snow, there's no slow - either the yeti kills someone, or not.
In the Outpost scenario, initially I thought the cage held some unit that would join me, so the yeti was a tomato surprise. Still, it was less of a pain, because you have access to slow.

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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by Adamant14 » November 25th, 2012, 2:19 pm

marecki wrote:In the Outpost scenario, initially I thought the cage held some unit that would join me, so the yeti was a tomato surprise.
Should I add a warning about the Yeti, when the player moves a unit close to the cage?
Maybe not a bad idea?
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by marecki » November 25th, 2012, 3:39 pm

Like a roar coming from the cage when you get near the leader, or something like that. Good idea.

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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by taptap » November 27th, 2012, 2:00 pm

When will you add the additional scenarios? ;)
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by AxalaraFlame » November 27th, 2012, 3:56 pm

Yeah, I got a same question :P

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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by Adamant14 » November 27th, 2012, 9:24 pm

After a long pause, I will start to work again. :)
But I haven't much time on my hands before Christmas :|

I hope to finish the second (and last) part soon. :whistle:
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Re: Antar, Son of Rheor [Singleplayer Campaign Feedback Thr

Post by AxalaraFlame » November 27th, 2012, 11:58 pm

I have never thought I would be so busy in the whole thanksgiving but actually I did not do anything...anyway
I would be free to help you in Christmas, whatever you ask.

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