Start of the War

[Lord-Knightmare]

I had around 12 units, I was able to level up quite a few in the 1st level without too much difficulty, to the extent my line in the 2nd scenario consisted pretty much entirely of level 2s, and I was able to level a few of those to level 3 by the end of the 2nd level. Heck, I could've probably held off those trolls forever without losing another unit (or possibly 1 unit lost!). I reckon the 2nd scenario, with enough levelled recalls, is actually easier than the 1st level. The trolls didn't even attack til at least turn 5, I reckon they were scared of my units lol!

The 3rd level was certainly challenging, it took me a couple of restarts. The 4th level I ran out of time on the only run through I've done of it so far!

The fourth level requires moving a dragonguard to the gohere-icon, revealing an alternate way into the troll keep. This helps as you don't need to kill all of the trolls, just the leader. And I am happy to know that I managed to design a challenging expert level campaign.

[MRDNRA]

I actually went to the gohere icon and despite going there I ran out of time cos quite a lot of enemies came the other way early on. I suppose I'll just have to be quicker next time!

[Lord-Knightmare]

I actually went to the gohere icon and despite going there I ran out of time cos quite a lot of enemies came the other way early on. I suppose I'll just have to be quicker next time!

I did that in 5 turns, you have recall your dragonguard early and support him with 2 explorers or 2 lords. Runemasters are also helpful.

[kallewirsch]

In the third scenario I have a problem .I don´t have a dragonguard.I can´t recruit or recall one.i play it on wesnoth 1.10.0

[Lord-Knightmare]

In the third scenario I have a problem .I don´t have a dragonguard.I can´t recruit or recall one.i play it on wesnoth 1.10.0

Could be more specific? When you mention third, it the Dwarven Mine, a scenario in which you can neither recruit nor recall. And about the dragonguard thing, try leveling a thunderer to one in scenarios 1 & 2. Those scenarios were designed for the player to get high level units.

[Evander]

Just finished.

I will rate this campaign at 5/10 for following reasons

pros:
+ dwarfs vs trolls
+ bug free
+ story that might have just been interesting

cons:
- legions of 3 lvl trolls
- campaign is nearly save-reload carnival
- overall difficulty = totally unbalanced scenarios.

Now to elaborate:
I like the story that has nothing to do with Wesnoth for a change. I like the idea of ancient dwarfs vs ancient trolls.
However, there is almost no reason for trolls to attack really, that part is poorly explained with just once sentence. I kind of expected a little bit more drama.

Later scenarios are poorly designed. The defence of the outpost ("More then enough")where you have to kill 100 trolls has no counter, and looking at the large sea of trolls is quite boring.
Some battle shouts of your dwarfs like "we just killed over 9000!" would be nice.
Unless you are making notches on a paper sheet you never know if it is 30 more or just 5. In this scenario, in my opinion, there are just too many trolls - I checked the files - 2000 starting gold and 18 per village?

The Traps scenario is ridiculous. I don't know how you tested it, but with your dwarf having 4 movement points and like 8 trolls, 3 lvl each, with 5 or 6 movement points each spawning the second turn you are likely to be dead in 3rd turn.
There are too few dwarfs to stop them - most of the time it takes one or two trolls to kill a sentinel and they are after you.
If this scenario had more dwarfs and the trolls would be like 1 3lvl, 2 of 2lvl and the rest just a troll whelps it would be better.

The final scenario... I don't know what to make of it.
It is just one of most insane battles I have ever seen. 10 sides, of 3 lvl trolls, each spawning full keep each turn? with starting gold at one thousand and an income of 23 per village?

To sum this up, I expected a story line similar to Hammer of Thursagan.

What I got was a few maps that played like a survival, with little story to justify this and with little fun - most of the time is just - - save - - try to do damage - - save or reload - - same trick with next unit...

[Lord-Knightmare]

@Evander: I suppose you're right. More than Enough is kinda boring, so changed things a bit in scenarios 5 and 6. Scenario 6 is now Siege of Knalga, removed Traps.
A new version will be uploaded when my internet is fast enough...

[Lord-Knightmare]

I uploaded a new version of the SotW. Please update.

[Turuk]

I uploaded a new version of the SotW. Please update.

Lord-Knightmare has passed the torch on to me for maintenance and any further updates. There has been a handful of dialogue changes to account for word usage (such as commandeered to commanded), and the update is out on the add-on server.

[Altex]

I'm playing Wesnoth 1.10 (why? limited internet bandwidth), and I hope this campaign has been improved since then, because it has a lot of potential as a nice short and hard dwarves vs trolls campaign. However...

This campaign could have been very interesting strategically. But instead, that intrigue is drowned out by a deluge of trolls. I say "drowned out" because it's not that the strategy isn't there (I learned some interesting things about trolls vs dwarves in confined spaces despite having done it loads of times before) it's just that any game breaks down completely if de-balanced to this extent.

On "Normal" difficulty I tried playing it "honestly" (ie. no reload of saves or turn rewinding, although I did end up trying that too a few times). I restarted the first mission about 15 times by now and I couldn't get any significant upper hand in it. I tried quite a few different "opening moves" and placement strategies and nothing works except by a lot of luck. It's like attacking the Blob with sticks; everything I throw at the mass just gets swallowed up, and everything else just takes a little longer to get digested. (I'm not the best player but I have many hours of Wesnoth campaign under the belt, so I trust my opinion on this )

Evander pretty much sums it up: good story idea, but story idea doesn't really get executed at all. Good idea gameplay-wise, but it just ends up boiling down to "save-reload carnival". All in all: in this state not worth playing to me

My suggestions:

• "De-homeogenize" the sea-of-trolls gameplay. Place more emphasis on smaller group fights, complicate the terrain a bit and give the player more options.
• Add an initial story scenario that either shows why the trolls suddenly started migrating en masse into dwarven caves
• ... or a conversation scenario where they try to negotiate and threaten before everything turns south
• ...or make the first a minimal-recruiting scenario in which a small dwarven patrol meet encounter the first few trolls and have to make a certain number of kills and then escape alive via one of two routes.

[Turuk]

I restarted the first mission about 15 times by now and I couldn't get any significant upper hand in it. I tried quite a few different "opening moves" and placement strategies and nothing works except by a lot of luck.

Thank you for the feedback Altex. Can you post some of your replays here so I can look at what strategy you are using? I have attached my replay of the first scenario on Normal difficulty. I held the wall through a rotation of dwarves until approximately turn 20, and then pushed north to wipe out the leaders. Lord-Knightmare's design is about holding against the initial assault, and then pushing back to take out the leaders, not so much the normal, kill move, kill move until you reach the leader.

SotW-First_Encounter_replay.gz

(27.06 KiB) Downloaded 271 times

"De-homeogenize" the sea-of-trolls gameplay. Place more emphasis on smaller group fights, complicate the terrain a bit and give the player more options.

This is not needed in order to beat the first scenario.

Add an initial story scenario that either shows why the trolls suddenly started migrating en masse into dwarven caves

The whole campaign is written from the dwarves point of view, and the general idea is that they are suddenly under attack by a strange race they know nothing about that seems to be pushing into their territory. They would not know the why to provide explanation.

... or a conversation scenario where they try to negotiate and threaten before everything turns south

Perhaps, but LK's intent was to have the troll/dwarf race dynamic work as the question of what happens when an unstoppable force (trolls) meets an immovable object (dwarves).

...or make the first a minimal-recruiting scenario in which a small dwarven patrol meet encounter the first few trolls and have to make a certain number of kills and then escape alive via one of two routes.

This would be a nice touch as sort of a prologue to the first scenario, particularly given the dialogue when there is warning that "rocks" are approaching the outpost, so the warning could have been carried by the patrol.

[Altex]

Thank you for the feedback Altex. Can you post some of your replays here so I can look at what strategy you are using? I have attached my replay of the first scenario on Normal difficulty. I held the wall through a rotation of dwarves until approximately turn 20, and then pushed north to wipe out the leaders.

Thanks for your replay. I notice now it is of version 1.10.7 and I only have 1.10.4 on this computer I'll watch it when I get my Wesnoth updated again (or maybe it's possible to screw with the version tag inside and see what happens... nope it doesn't work :/ )

Unfortunately I didn't save most of my games before starting over. Argh, I should have thought about that... If/when I feel like giving it a try again I'll be sure to save replays (maybe I should try on easy too, just to compare). Will 1.10.4 replays be ok to post here, or should I also hold this off until I get everything more up to date?

Lord-Knightmare's design is about holding against the initial assault, and then pushing back to take out the leaders, not so much the normal, kill move, kill move until you reach the leader.

My initial strategy was to send out a small scout team to deal some damage and retreat, which is somewhat pointless against trolls if you don't manage a kill, heh. So I quickly switched to wall-defense and rotation with the idea of holding off, levelling up and then pushing back (the strategy that I tried most of the times). I usually delayed recruitment for extra gold. Every time my wall just crumbles in some slow but spectacular way. The greatest difficulty is securing kills and managing XP among thinly stretched forces when I rarely get to pick my kills, and many of my units got very close to levelling before being squashed. I also tried agressively lunging forwards to divide the troll forces a few times, to no avail. I got pretty far with delaying tactics by sending a small force ahead of the wall, but the wall only caves in later for lack of numbers (I never have enough forces to both heal and keep them from leaking past my units). Most effective way to deal damage I found so far is to place my leader on the central castle and just let the whelps have a go at him for a while. Eventually I tried quickly securing a kill early game and then retreating (so I can pump XP into one unit) with which I managed to level up a unit early some times but again at the expense of the rest of the wall (especially since my leader -- the best damage dealer at that point -- is kind of tied down with recruitment duty).

I dunno, maybe I am just particularly lousy at this kind of play, but I really have tried different strategies and the trolls just keep overrunning me with nothing but numbers and regen... unless I tirelessly savescum.

The whole campaign is written from the dwarves point of view, and the general idea is that they are suddenly under attack by a strange race they know nothing about that seems to be pushing into their territory. They would not know the why to provide explanation.

Hm, I see your point. It does come across rather like some oral-tradition Dwarven version of the tale. Maybe the whole campaign should start out with a bunch of rowdy dwarves in a tavern exchanging tales when a one wonders how it all started

Altex:...or make the first a minimal-recruiting scenario in which a small dwarven patrol meet encounter the first few trolls and have to make a certain number of kills and then escape alive via one of two routes.

Turuk: This would be a nice touch as sort of a prologue to the first scenario, particularly given the dialogue when there is warning that "rocks" are approaching the outpost, so the warning could have been carried by the patrol.

IMO it would also be nice to be able to start the following scenario with a few units that already have XP, and it would give the player more choices (possibly the scenario after that can be balanced in such a way so that beating it almost requires careful thought to XP and not staying in too long or bailing out too fast during the prologue scenario -- something that requires the kind of judgement an experienced player should have)

[Turuk]

Thanks for your replay. I notice now it is of version 1.10.7 and I only have 1.10.4 on this computer I'll watch it when I get my Wesnoth updated again (or maybe it's possible to screw with the version tag inside and see what happens... nope it doesn't work :/ )

Unfortunately I didn't save most of my games before starting over. Argh, I should have thought about that... If/when I feel like giving it a try again I'll be sure to save replays (maybe I should try on easy too, just to compare). Will 1.10.4 replays be ok to post here, or should I also hold this off until I get everything more up to date?

Replays from the most current version would be more useful, but I can sympathize with having limited bandwidth. If you can post up the 1.10.4 replays, I will get a copy of that version to utilize in order to watch them.

My initial strategy was...

I think the delaying of recruitment for extra gold may have been your issue. I recruited as many units as I could at the very beginning, and then kept all of them at the wall, with any units that did not fit kept in a second line behind the castle hexes by the road. I would not send even a small force ahead of the wall, as every unit is needed in order to hold the line. I would then place units on the line and rotate them out as needed with the line behind, having them heal at the nearby villages. I had a mix of fighters and thunderers with a Guardsman to complement the one you get at the start. My leader stayed on the central keep until turn 8 or 10, I forgot to utilize him early on. Once the flow of trolls slowed to a trickle, it was only then that I pushed out to kill the leaders (around turn 20). The replay will show it best though.

What are you recruiting, and in what numbers?

Hm, I see your point. It does come across rather like some oral-tradition Dwarven version of the tale. Maybe the whole campaign should start out with a bunch of rowdy dwarves in a tavern exchanging tales when a one wonders how it all started

That could be, currently there's just the narrator telling the story of the four brothers and how Knalga came to be, it could always be touched up a bit to be someone who was there to give the narrator a bit more of an overview and provide insight at other points.

IMO it would also be nice to be able to start the following scenario with a few units that already have XP, and it would give the player more choices (possibly the scenario after that can be balanced in such a way so that beating it almost requires careful thought to XP and not staying in too long or bailing out too fast during the prologue scenario -- something that requires the kind of judgement an experienced player should have)

This could be done, the scout patrol could be 3-5 units, but you're only required to save one (or even none). Whoever survives, the player gets to have for free at the start of the current S1, but if no one survives, the dwarves only get warning that something is wrong because a patrol didn't return. This could result in two Guardsmen manning the wall spots at the beginning of the scenario. Either way, the player gets a couple extra units.

[Altex]

I tried it again today and managed to beat the first mission the first time without scumming (except once when I accidentally clicked on the wrong hex and got my leader killed). Alright... that was certainly challenging but... it wasn't too hard... which feels extremely weird considering that I played it for >two hours straight last night and got nothing but frustrated. So many close-to-levelling units died that I'm sure part of it was rotten luck, but I definitely made some important mistakes too.

(I admit this isn't 100% apropriate to this thread but) Memo to self:

• Don't try playing an unfamiliar 'expert' Wesnoth scenario 'honourably' after 01:00AM (similiar to my policy for permadeath games, heh)
• Too many dwarvish Guardsmen/Stahlwarts are not useful against sea of trolls because their lack of decisive damage gets eaten up by massive collective regen, but like in all other cases with steadfast defenders, a couple in a wall can be very good for holding areas while you focus killing elsewhere. In most of my games last night I was using too many Guardsmen (3 or more recruits), though there were a few where I used a more sensible mix and still failed.
• Don't underestimate Thunderers when used in numbers. I find them to be somewhat opposite of the Guardsmen in that in small numbers they just get squashed, but in larger numbers with heavy swapping they provide exactly what I needed all along to compliment the fighters. Guess being tired and not playing dwarves helped me to forget about that.
• I learned a new AI quirk. As seen in your replay early on: the AI will do a some amazingly stupid things with powerful units if you trick it correctly with an ulfserker. That the AI has a few very specific behaviours is something that campaign designers and players both rely on a lot, I know. And that it is generally zealous about killing berserkers I knew too. But I to sacrifice its mage like that just because it was the only unit that could reach the ulfserker in that turn? That was hilarious. I now see the point of your initial delaying tactic with the Stalwart; very smart
• Save replays of difficult levels before giving feedback.

All in all, I think I'll try playing this campaign further some time and give more feedback. Thanks for your patience with me so far, Turuk! I feel a somewhat bad for making such a harsh judgement of the first mission, although I haven't changed all of my mind yet.

Almost forgot: I got your replay to work (without screwing with version tag) and found it very educative. You really know how to sacrifice at the right moments, something that I'm generally bad at with dwarves. My mistake was dropping the file into ~/.wesnoth-1.10 (a path left over from a previous release? ) instead of the one under ~/.local/share/wesnoth. Apparently all releases from a given minor version number are replay-compatible? Anyway, I also did make a few saves last night so here are two of my fail replays and the one from today if they might be useful:

[Turuk]

I tried it again today and managed to beat the first mission the first time without scumming (except once when I accidentally clicked on the wrong hex and got my leader killed). Alright... that was certainly challenging but... it wasn't too hard... which feels extremely weird considering that I played it for >two hours straight last night and got nothing but frustrated. So many close-to-levelling units died that I'm sure part of it was rotten luck, but I definitely made some important mistakes too.

Congrats! I know the feeling, I have sometimes played a scenario multiple times and can't seem to beat it, then a day or two later I manage it within my first or second try. Given that it was so late for you, maybe your brain was just rebelling in hope of sleep.

(I admit this isn't 100% apropriate to this thread but) Memo to self:
Don't try playing an unfamiliar 'expert' Wesnoth scenario 'honourably' after 01:00AM (similiar to my policy for permadeath games, heh)
Too many dwarvish Guardsmen/Stahlwarts are not useful against sea of trolls because their lack of decisive damage gets eaten up by massive collective regen, but like in all other cases with steadfast defenders, a couple in a wall can be very good for holding areas while you focus killing elsewhere. In most of my games last night I was using too many Guardsmen (3 or more recruits), though there were a few where I used a more sensible mix and still failed.
Don't underestimate Thunderers when used in numbers. I find them to be somewhat opposite of the Guardsmen in that in small numbers they just get squashed, but in larger numbers with heavy swapping they provide exactly what I needed all along to compliment the fighters. Guess being tired and not playing dwarves helped me to forget about that.
I learned a new AI quirk. As seen in your replay early on: the AI will do a some amazingly stupid things with powerful units if you trick it correctly with an ulfserker. That the AI has a few very specific behaviours is something that campaign designers and players both rely on a lot, I know. And that it is generally zealous about killing berserkers I knew too. But I to sacrifice its mage like that just because it was the only unit that could reach the ulfserker in that turn? That was hilarious. I now see the point of your initial delaying tactic with the Stalwart; very smart
Save replays of difficult levels before giving feedback.

I think the above is pertinent as advice for others who might struggle.

• Guardsman are great to hold a position, but you only need a couple of them to hold down the line.
• Thunderer's high damage is great for troll killing if you cycle them into a battle line.
• Tempt the AI to attack in an unfavorable position.

All in all, I think I'll try playing this campaign further some time and give more feedback. Thanks for your patience with me so far, Turuk! I feel a somewhat bad for making such a harsh judgement of the first mission, although I haven't changed all of my mind yet.

Anytime! Thank you for the feedback. Good, bad or indifferent, feedback is always helpful in campaign design and balance to understand the pain points that players encounter.

Anyway, I also did make a few saves last night so here are two of my fail replays and the one from today if they might be useful:

Thanks for these, I want to look through to get a better understanding of how someone plays who isn't me.