Grnk the Mighty: Parts 1 & 2 now on 1.12 and 1.14 server

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

WanderingHero wrote:How does it affect the story if I go with Rubert? I chose to go my own away and though I could reload the end of the scenario,
Spoiler:
WanderingHero wrote:but I forgot on my home pc i set it to delete turn saves when I've beaten a scenario
Let me know if you want me to send you an end-of-scenario (pre-choice) save from one of my play-throughs.

Thanks for continuing to comment. I've already said that I am planning to do something with scenario 'Treasure', so I won't bore evveryone with that again. :)

Rowanthepreacher
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Rowanthepreacher »

Hey, sorry. I was getting some weird messages when I tried to access wesnoth in any way shape or form using google on october 2nd (their anniversary).

Here are the saves you asked for.
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Grnk-Wizards-Auto-Save17.gz
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Grnk-Wizards-Auto-Save12.gz
(134.63 KiB) Downloaded 227 times

mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

Hey - no worries, there were some DNS problems yesterday, so that's probably what you ran into.

Thanks for posting the files. To be honest, I have no idea what is going on. As far as I can tell, Gertburt is definitely invisible, yet the AI goes for him. I will have to ask at the WML Workshop about this, I have tried what I know to no avail. In the meantime, I attached my Turn 15 auto-save below which you are welcome to use to continue with if you want to (and which does not seem to have this problem). I know this is not as satisfying as continuing with your own game, but I don't know how to fix this right now.

Alternatively, you could cheat, by going into debug mode, giving Gertburt lots of moves, and keeping him out of harms way until the turn when he would usually get to Rutburt. To do this, type:
:debug
:unit moves=999
(while the cursor is over Gertburt)

Sorry for this, I will try to figure out what is going on, but hopefully you can at least continue this way...
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Rowanthepreacher
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Rowanthepreacher »

Heh, cheers, but I'll wait a little longer. There are some other campaigns I've got my eye on, it'll give me a bit of a break.

mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

It appears that this might be a bug in Wesnoth, I'll report it later today. In the meantime, I put a workaround into your savefile (Turn 12 only, as the Turn 17 save is from after Gertburt was discovered). You should be able to continue the scenario by using the attached file.

I also put the workaround into the campaign. If you want/need to start over the scenario using v1.0.5 should do it, but that only works if you go all the way back to the beginning. Intermediate saves contain the code as it was when you started the scenario at that time.

Let me know if you have any more problems with this. And just in case anybody is interested in how I did this:
Spoiler:
PS: Just to let you know up front, this scenario is supposed to be reasonably hard for reasons that will become apparent when you get to the end of it. :)
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Rowanthepreacher
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Rowanthepreacher »

Heh, awesome. Won't that make them group up around him, just not -directly- around him, so he still can't move anywhere without being discovered?

mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

Rowanthepreacher wrote:Heh, awesome. Won't that make them group up around him, just not -directly- around him, so he still can't move anywhere without being discovered?
I was wondering that too, but for the test trials I have done, it worked fine. They moved past him (or away from him) as if he weren't there, just as they should. Let me know if you encounter any other strange behavior.

lantti
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by lantti »

First of all thank you for a most enjoyable campaign! I think BfW is actually at it's best while playing a well designed RPG adventure style campaign.

Here are two saves around the crash in Traps scenario that you asked to try to reproduce. The one in the Wizards scenario I didn't manage to get. The Grnk-Trap_Turn_12.gz is fairly reliably crashing after clicking through the dialogues and then moving my units. The crash always happens when click a unit to move, but before the move in executed. Sometimes I manage to play the turn through without a crash and the crash never happens again later. The Grnk-Trap_Turn_12+.gz is saved just after the dialogues on a turn that allows me to play without crashing or at least didn't crash even once during several tries while the other save crashes more than half of the time.

I was running a couple of tries through valgrind and it curiously reports an illegal memory write during the dialogues (from a function called move_resetter) every time there later was a crash and never on those turns that later turned out to work ok. But I didn't do a sufficient number of tries to really verify that because running BfW on valgrind is slower than my nerves can really handle :)

I hope this helps somehow and I guess it counts as a bug in BfW rather than in your campaign code.
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mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

Thank you very much, lantti! I'm traveling right now (actually writing this from an airport), I will look into this as the latest when I get back at the end of next week. Hopefully I will be able to figure out what is going on.
lantti wrote:First of all thank you for a most enjoyable campaign! I think BfW is actually at it's best while playing a well designed RPG adventure style campaign.
Thanks!!

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Evander
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Evander »

Ok, so having finished this campaign few weeks ago I finally have time to provide some feedback.

I will hold this campaign as second only to Bad Moon Rising. Reason is story line (pretty awesome) and advanced scripting (more awesome)

What I found problematic:
1.) near endless spawn of some enemies on some maps. after Grnk escapes from from prison island, it was better to use your allies to actually kill the lich spawning skeletons then to escape with Grnk directly. Such enemies are annoying like hell
2.) steal chance falling below 30% is extreme. you can be stuck in situation where you have no hps to start a storyline mission and no money to heal yourself up and no way to get that money. please allow self-healing with 2hps per turn when resting idle in city.
3.) map, where you capture a wolf is bugged. when I selected merfolk leader to ally with, saurian began to spawn units but merfolk did NOT. as a result, I had to fight all the saurians, protect cart and protect merfolk leader at the same time from poisonous sea serpent attacks and all this in 18 turns. I was unable to finish it without cheating here, as it was simply impossible.
4.) mission with mages is another one which gives a headache. adepts are simply no much for swarms of skeletons I it took me a lot of re-loading each turn to beat that.
5.) wolf placed outside the city costs you 1gp per turn of upkeep
6.) I managed to save a wolf rider from the first mission, but he seemed to be of no consequence to the rest of storyline

What I liked:
+ different "speaking" style for different races. You did it, and imho you did it right :)
+ storyline, as it is something different than "kill everyone"
+ advanced scripting, especially on the map with peasant rebels
+ prunes and range attacks

Good job, and let's hope that 2nd part is going to be even more awesome :)

mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

Evander: thanks much for all those comments!
Evander wrote:I will hold this campaign as second only to Bad Moon Rising. Reason is story line (pretty awesome) and advanced scripting (more awesome)
Cool! Thanks. Now, I am going to disagree with some of your "problematic" points. Well, no, I won't disagree. I think your points are perfectly valid (and I appreciate you taking the time to post them!), but my own opinion differs from yours on some of the points:
Evander wrote:What I found problematic:
1.) near endless spawn of some enemies on some maps. after Grnk escapes from from prison island, it was better to use your allies to actually kill the lich spawning skeletons then to escape with Grnk directly. Such enemies are annoying like hell
I agree that it's an endless of spawn of enemies (just look at the gold of the enemy, you're not supposed to be able to beat him), and could be called annoying. But that's a design choice in this case - Grnk's supposed to be up against an unbeatable enemy with flight being the only choice. I didn't even know that it's possible to beat the lich until somebody else did it. In fact, I am very tempted to make it so that it really is impossible in an upcoming update. :shock:
Evander wrote:2.) steal chance falling below 30% is extreme. you can be stuck in situation where you have no hps to start a storyline mission and no money to heal yourself up and no way to get that money. please allow self-healing with 2hps per turn when resting idle in city.
I had that originally, but then there is no challenge at all to the scenario. You can steal/attack at will, building up money and XP, and then just sit and wait. Very boring, in my opinion. IMHO, there is plenty of warning that gold is important and that you cannot go on unless you're healed (for which you have to pay gold). It is also possible to get stuck in battle scenarios because you were not careful enough with your units and cannot beat the enemy any more, so I think this is entirely consistent with that.
Evander wrote:3.) map, where you capture a wolf is bugged. when I selected merfolk leader to ally with, saurian began to spawn units but merfolk did NOT. as a result, I had to fight all the saurians, protect cart and protect merfolk leader at the same time from poisonous sea serpent attacks and all this in 18 turns. I was unable to finish it without cheating here, as it was simply impossible.
Umm, I might be misunderstanding you, but do you mean that you tried to do all that with Grnk only? That is indeed impossible. When you choose a side (merfolk in your case), you take control of that side and are in charge of recruiting units. Let me know if I missed something.
Evander wrote:4.) mission with mages is another one which gives a headache. adepts are simply no much for swarms of skeletons I it took me a lot of re-loading each turn to beat that.
Again, this is a design choice. It's the last scenario and it's supposed to be hard. But if one positions them correctly, plays aggressively during the day, and very defensively during the night, levels up a couple mages to healers early on, etc., it should be quite possible to beat all the skeletons quickly, and without having to do any reloading. I think I have stated that before, I am not a big fan of scenarios in which you (meaning the general "you" here, not you, Evander) can simply throw your units at the enemy without needing much finesse. I prefer those where you have to position units carefully and only attack at the right time. So that's what I am trying to do with this (and other) scenarios. Nevertheless, I will go back to it and see if I have overdone it and maybe make it a bit easier.
Evander wrote:5.) wolf placed outside the city costs you 1gp per turn of upkeep
Good catch, that's not supposed to be that way. I'll fix that for the next update.
Evander wrote:6.) I managed to save a wolf rider from the first mission, but he seemed to be of no consequence to the rest of storyline
That's correct and consistent with Grnk saying at the very beginning: "This is the last time I team up with a bunch of goblin numbskulls on a moron mission!"
Evander wrote:What I liked:
...
Thanks! :)
Evander wrote:Good job, and let's hope that 2nd part is going to be even more awesome.
I'm still stuck on how exactly the second part is going to work out. The way how I developed the story details for the 1st part isn't going to work for Part 2, so it'll be a while, I'm afraid. Thank you very much again for all the comments (especially also the critical ones, even if I disagree with some of them), this is much appreciated and helps a lot with motivation for working on Part 2.

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Evander
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Evander »

I agree that it's an endless of spawn of enemies (just look at the gold of the enemy, you're not supposed to be able to beat him), and could be called annoying. But that's a design choice in this case - Grnk's supposed to be up against an unbeatable enemy with flight being the only choice. I didn't even know that it's possible to beat the lich until somebody else did it. In fact, I am very tempted to make it so that it really is impossible in an upcoming update. :shock:
actually... don't :)
maybe it will be better to reward player with an item (pouch of gold) for doing that? making optional of it would be nice
I had that originally, but then there is no challenge at all to the scenario. You can steal/attack at will, building up money and XP, and then just sit and wait. Very boring, in my opinion. IMHO, there is plenty of warning that gold is important and that you cannot go on unless you're healed (for which you have to pay gold). It is also possible to get stuck in battle scenarios because you were not careful enough with your units and cannot beat the enemy any more, so I think this is entirely consistent with that.
in battle if you make mistakes you are defeated.
in town, it's like that you can't win, but it is hard to loose either (need to catch up with folks to have them kill you).

some option to solve that would be nice.
Umm, I might be misunderstanding you, but do you mean that you tried to do all that with Grnk only? That is indeed impossible. When you choose a side (merfolk in your case), you take control of that side and are in charge of recruiting units. Let me know if I missed something.
reloaded that save. it seems that playing at night made me miss that small green dot popping up on merfolk leader.
still, an info on screen "Note: you can now recruit merfolks with the merfolk leader!" would be pretty nice.
That's correct and consistent with Grnk saying at the very beginning: "This is the last time I team up with a bunch of goblin numbskulls on a moron mission!"
nice! some direct dialogue between Grnk and direct survivors may be nice tho.
I'm still stuck on how exactly the second part is going to work out. The way how I developed the story details for the 1st part isn't going to work for Part 2, so it'll be a while, I'm afraid. Thank you very much again for all the comments (especially also the critical ones, even if I disagree with some of them), this is much appreciated and helps a lot with motivation for working on Part 2.
You can do it! :)

mattsc
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by mattsc »

Evander wrote:
In fact, I am very tempted to make it so that it really is impossible in an upcoming update. :shock:
actually... don't :)
No worries, I probably won't. One of the things I really like about Wesnoth is that there are often different ways of dealing with a situation. I shouldn't punish the player for being smarter than I am and coming up with a solution that I hadn't thought of!
Evander wrote:in battle if you make mistakes you are defeated.
in town, it's like that you can't win, but it is hard to loose either (need to catch up with folks to have them kill you).
That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Evander wrote:some option to solve that would be nice.
I will think about it and am open to suggestions. I don't like the rest healing solution though for the reasons I pointed out, and keeping the pickpocketing percentage at no lower than 30 won't do it either, I think, because you still have a much higher chance of being hit than gaining money that way.
Evander wrote:reloaded that save. it seems that playing at night made me miss that small green dot popping up on merfolk leader.
still, an info on screen "Note: you can now recruit merfolks with the merfolk leader!" would be pretty nice.
I'll need to look again at exactly how the dialog goes. I'll try to make it clearer for the next update.
Evander wrote:nice! some direct dialogue between Grnk and direct survivors may be nice tho.
Will look at that too!
Evander wrote:You can do it! :)
I assume I'll figure it out eventually. :) For me, the story part is the hard thing, programming the code is easy by comparison...

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Evander
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by Evander »

mattsc wrote: I will think about it and am open to suggestions. I don't like the rest healing solution though for the reasons I pointed out, and keeping the pickpocketing percentage at no lower than 30 won't do it either, I think, because you still have a much higher chance of being hit than gaining money that way.
what about making some part of the city a dumping ground and let Grnk sleep in a trash?
I assume I'll figure it out eventually. :) For me, the story part is the hard thing, programming the code is easy by comparison...
that's exactly an opposite for me, heh. guess it's time to learn some scripting language :roll:

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taptap
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Re: Grnk the Mighty (BfW 1.9)

Post by taptap »

Very nice campaign. I play in the highest difficulty.

Some observations (to be continued)

Interlude:
If you level in the city (possible by provoking weak counterattacks through pickpocketing and rat killing) you lose your double movement points.

2nd scenario:
How are 5 movement point units supposed to survive in the 2nd scenario circuit? (I lost the loyal bandit and could draw out the trapper with mere 6 hp. 10 losses, 5 kills ... Initially footpad only recruit.) Nice puzzle - but next time I may send 5 movement guys home immediately and not through the valley.

3rd scenario:
In the 3rd scenario, I didn't really understand why the ghosts are suddenly controlled by me.
I am a Saurian Skirmisher: I'm a real pest, especially at night.

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