Return to Noelren 0.7.6

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Heindal
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by Heindal » September 18th, 2011, 10:39 pm

So here comes my revenge review. Hm it seems like we are using different forms of telling a story. However as the parts I have seen so far are well written and its an innovative form of story telling.


You once told me, that I explain to much, well your drawback is that you dont explain enough.

Units appear for a second and than disappear at once. Your protagonist is standing there saying UHOH. Annother path opens, the player is not informed. You should explain what the character sees/feels and what not. If things change in the map, you should at least give the player a hint, that this has happened.

For example:

After following the unicorn over the pont, you see the mother of the elven beeing attacked (?) by several orcs - she simply disappears, alltogether with the elven. You dont know what has happened - even though you intended to let things unclear this is just confusing. A new path opens, but the player is not informed ...

Annother hint: you should avoid annoying situations: I stopped playing in the scenario with the Village Tart.
You see a lot of undead zombies. You are to late to save him, and as there are four zombies (anything else would be madness) now I simply walked to the next village, as I was faster than they were. Than the chief of the village told something about a wolf, I havent seen before.

First of all there is no wolf - I never seen any. Now I have a mission to explore the black forest - what black forest? You should place at least label where to search, or where the forest is (you do not need to mark the spot of these haunted castle. However I now walk around, with a bunch of two zillion spawned peasants even with a speed of 8 its like 20 seconds for each turn ... this is were I stopped playing.


Hints allthogether:

Avoid confusing and annoying situations. Spawn less peasants, label the black forest, expect that the players dont behave the way, you intended them to behave, give the player more hints (such as: annother two necromancers appear ..., you feel that something has changed ..., you here a crumbling wall/the sounds of moving branches in a distance ..., you should look for annother passage ...).

A bug finally:

When the first two necromancers appear, you create a barrier behind the characters. Well, in my case that trapped the mage inside the wood (the unit cant move out). That can happen to any unit. Maybe placing the barrier a little bit higher should solve the problem. Annother solution would be to move the character outside the barrier.
The future belongs to those, who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
Developer of: Trapped, Five Fates, Strange Legacy, Epical
Dungeonmasters of Wesnoth, Wild Peasants vs Devouring Corpses

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » September 19th, 2011, 5:26 am

Heindal wrote: So here comes my revenge review. Hm it seems like we are using different forms of telling a story. However as the parts I have seen so far are well written and its an innovative form of story telling.
Thank you...
Heindal wrote:You once told me, that I explain to much, well your drawback is that you dont explain enough.
Maybe... Actually, I don't like very much campaigns where objectives and layout are obvious or fully described. I've setup a contextual help menu for those who want more hints. Did you use it ?
Heindal wrote: Annother hint: you should avoid annoying situations: I stopped playing in the scenario with the Village Tart.
You see a lot of undead zombies. You are to late to save him, and as there are four zombies (anything else would be madness)...
madness ? You can kill them easily. It's so easy I couldn't imagine someone flying here.
Heindal wrote:now I simply walked to the next village, as I was faster than they were. Than the chief of the village told something about a wolf, I havent seen before.
... and this explains why you didn't see the wolf. It's coming is triggered by the killing of the undeads. I will do something here.
Heindal wrote:First of all there is no wolf - I never seen any. Now I have a mission to explore the black forest - what black forest?
... Oh c'mon ! There is only one large forest on the map ! Going to the north east as objectives say, you can't miss it !
Heindal wrote: Hints allthogether:

Avoid confusing and annoying situations. Spawn less peasants...
I shall do that.
Heindal wrote: ... expect that the players dont behave the way, you intended them to behave ...
It's extremely difficult to imagine ALL that players (or users) can do or try. They're not wrong, of course, but it's a common problem in software development. And that's why users feedbacks are precious.
Heindal wrote: A bug finally:

When the first two necromancers appear, you create a barrier behind the characters. Well, in my case that trapped the mage inside the wood (the unit cant move out).
OK, it sounds rather strange to me to let the most powerful unit of the team far behind the others, but... I shall find something.

Many thanks for trying my campaign. I suspect you shall not play it much further. Too bad !

Friendly,
LS
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
Please help to to update the Guide to UMC Campaigns

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Heindal
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by Heindal » September 19th, 2011, 7:40 pm

Well I will play again, if you ask me to do so. The wolf didnt show up, when I killed the zombies either. There was just a message that it appears.
But that was after talking to the chief of the village. When not talking the chief of the village first, the wolf appears.
Oh c'mon ! There is only one large forest on the map ! Going to the north east as objectives say, you can't miss it !
There are actually more than one black forest (dark trees) but just one with brown leaves which is called black forest.
You should add north-east to the objectives. That would help. It just says: "Explore the black forest and destroy the haunted castle".
The hints&help menu indeeds helps, but should not be necessary, when playing.

Ok I did it ... i placed fire and used the bombs ... but this is hard with a hundreds of peasants behind you.
However in the next scenario I get a "Invalid WML found" invalid coordinate in move unit" when moving to the first house.
The future belongs to those, who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
Developer of: Trapped, Five Fates, Strange Legacy, Epical
Dungeonmasters of Wesnoth, Wild Peasants vs Devouring Corpses

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » September 20th, 2011, 5:25 am

Heindal wrote:Well I will play again, if you ask me to do so.
It's very kind of yours ! Thanks !
Heindal wrote: The wolf didnt show up, when I killed the zombies either. There was just a message that it appears.
But that was after talking to the chief of the village. When not talking the chief of the village first, the wolf appears.
Yeah, I shall trigger the wolf on carriage moveto, not on killing the undeads. So the wolf will come in any case.
Heindal wrote:
Oh c'mon ! There is only one large forest on the map ! Going to the north east as objectives say, you can't miss it !
There are actually more than one black forest (dark trees) but just one with brown leaves which is called black forest.
You should add north-east to the objectives. That would help. It just says: "Explore the black forest and destroy the haunted castle".
The hints&help menu indeeds helps, but should not be necessary, when playing.
I think too the menu isn't necessary, but the feedbacks made clear to me some players didn't enjoy searching where to go and what to do. Others (like me) can miss obvious points sometimes. (BTW, one thing I like in Wesnoth, is one can look at the WML code to understand where is the trick).
Heindal wrote: Ok I did it ... i placed fire and used the bombs ... but this is hard with a hundreds of peasants behind you.
However in the next scenario I get a "Invalid WML found" invalid coordinate in move unit" when moving to the first house.
Did you ? I must have a look on this.

EDIT: T'is strange. The code is very simple and works perfectly in many other places. Anyway, I used a workaround setting explicit coordinates and this should do. I also improved the third scenario in the way you suggested (more comments and less peasants).

Since you didn't complain about the fourth scenario, I hope you enjoy it more than the former two ! :D

Thanks again for playing and reporting. Your feedback is really useful !

Friendly,
LS
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Jim Goodridge
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by Jim Goodridge » September 29th, 2011, 5:43 pm

I think it shows great creativity to make a RPG out of Wesnoth, please keep up the good work. This game won't be for everybody but you did put a disclaimer at the start so everyone gets a warning that the game is different than what people are used to. It would be neat if this spawned a different generation of games so that we had two streams - one that was strategy and tactics and one that is more story/rpg.

I am currently in "errands" using version 1.9.4 and think that I have found a glitch. With the saurians and the winter animals they don't fight. Everyone holds their ground and retaliates when attacked but they don't initiate attacks. I can put units right beside them and nothing happens.

Please keep working on this game.

Best Regards
Jim
t

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Heindal
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by Heindal » September 29th, 2011, 6:48 pm

I got to add several things, as I continued playing. The move bug I mentioned before (this in the scenario where you move on a winter road, when you are ambushed by the bandits) is caused by not making a fire. If you dont make a fire you dont meet your "blind passenger". If you dont meet your blind passenger and get ambushed by the bandits, the above bug will happen and the bandits will simply kill you.

The water level. Errr. You got a superinvincible unit that can petrify any of your enemies, even if its a big troll. So its indeed very easy to kill the trolls and the orcish leader - which never supposed you would go this way. In the next scenario you fight against nagas. This is indeed very easy when you just make several of these tridents. If you kill the leader of the nagas however, your units will disappear. Thats ok, but any other naga units that are still on the field, does not disappear! That should be fixed.

On the next mission on that map you have to find a specific place. Thats err not easy and not possible to find without using the help menu (i tried it on purpose for 5 min, but than I gave up). Try placing different labels with some false tracks, but offer your players different places to search! The next scenario in the cave, is kind of annoying and I stopped playing there. Even so the enemies are no match for your companions (its easy to kill them all with the right strategy) they can easily kill your main char and that is not funny, because your main char is standing around all the time.
The future belongs to those, who believe in the beauty of their dreams.
Developer of: Trapped, Five Fates, Strange Legacy, Epical
Dungeonmasters of Wesnoth, Wild Peasants vs Devouring Corpses

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » September 30th, 2011, 9:54 am

@Jim:
Jim Goodridge wrote:I think it shows great creativity to make a RPG out of Wesnoth, please keep up the good work. This game won't be for everybody but you did put a disclaimer at the start so everyone gets a warning that the game is different than what people are used to. It would be neat if this spawned a different generation of games so that we had two streams - one that was strategy and tactics and one that is more story/rpg.
Many thanks for this moving and heartening comment. I'm really glad you enjoyed the campaign and hope you'll post more about it when reaching the (provisionnal) end.
Jim Goodridge wrote: I am currently in "errands" using version 1.9.4 and think that I have found a glitch. With the saurians and the winter animals they don't fight. Everyone holds their ground and retaliates when attacked but they don't initiate attacks. I can put units right beside them and nothing happens.
Yes, I thought I've fixed this problem, but maybe not (if you're playing the last version). Foes attacks and moves only if you hit the "end turn" button when they are on screen. In other words, if you're looking at the saurians world when ending your turn, they shall attack. If not,they keep idle.
The problem is Wesnoth engine manages only units which are currently on the map. I switch them back at the beginning of each side turn, but it's not enough. You shall probably notice too that the foes can't keep villages (on the first/last map). They capture villages, but every turn, their ownership is nullified.
I have not yet asked the WML gurus on this, but I fear there is no solution.
Jim Goodridge wrote: Please keep working on this game.
I will...

@Heindal:
Thanks for playing again !
Heindal wrote:I got to add several things, as I continued playing. The move bug I mentioned before (this in the scenario where you move on a winter road, when you are ambushed by the bandits) is caused by not making a fire. If you dont make a fire you dont meet your "blind passenger". If you dont meet your blind passenger and get ambushed by the bandits, the above bug will happen and the bandits will simply kill you.
OK, this is much more clear now. I imagine not someone would cross without lighting campfires but it's perfectly possible. I will set "blind passenger" showing when the team is ambushed if not before.
Heindal wrote: The water level. Errr. You got a superinvincible unit that can petrify any of your enemies, even if its a big troll. So its indeed very easy to kill the trolls and the orcish leader - which never supposed you would go this way.
At this stage of development, I haven't yet worked much on balancing. Maybe it's too easy to kill the orcs now. But it's the player choice to take the road or to cross the swamps, and to me, both are OK.
Heindal wrote: In the next scenario you fight against nagas. This is indeed very easy when you just make several of these tridents. If you kill the leader of the nagas however, your units will disappear. Thats ok, but any other naga units that are still on the field, does not disappear! That should be fixed.
Why ? an agressive player as you seem to be should be happy to have some ugly guys to kill passing by on this long road to the cave :D
Heindal wrote: On the next mission on that map you have to find a specific place. Thats err not easy and not possible to find without using the help menu (i tried it on purpose for 5 min, but than I gave up).
Try placing different labels with some false tracks, but offer your players different places to search!
It's not impossible at all. Many players did find, even before I install the help menu. You need not to move exactly on the place to find it. The wolf reveals it when it comes close enough. I can enlarge the triggering area, but I certainly will not put labels.
I already noticed you don't like that much to search and there's nothing wrong with it. But some others (including me) like to explore maps as well as fighting foes (and they can spend much more than five minutes without getting tired). I would not spoil their pleasure making things too obvious, and I think the help menu is a good compromise. If you don't like searching or are tired of it, pull down the menu and you're done.
Heindal wrote: The next scenario in the cave, is kind of annoying and I stopped playing there. Even so the enemies are no match for your companions (its easy to kill them all with the right strategy) they can easily kill your main char and that is not funny, because your main char is standing around all the time.
I don't understand what you did here. I suspect you rushed into the troll chamber and kill the leader before he has a chance to get a large army, but then, how do the trolls manage to kill a hero ? You can make the weakiest unit retreat, no ?

Last, I will say I really appreciate your comments, even if I look rather reluctant to accept them. I think we don't like the same things in campaigns (it's obvious to me, both after your comments and what you publish). I'm really aware of the way different players can play my campaign and wish to give them the best experience possible. But within certain limits: the general spirit of the work.

I'm regularly surprised by the way you manage scenarios: for instance run to kill the orcs in the "water level" when the dialogs and the undine both discourage you to do that. Of course, this is not wrong or bad, but you can miss things. In the water level, the challenge I put here is not to kill the foes on the south bank (since they will quite all get drowned, you've nothing to worry about them), but to drive the carriage through the swamps, taking care of the tide, which IMO, is an interesting change to the standard "kill the ennemy leader".
In that way, I'm not really surprised you declare the campaign being not funny: if you run straight to kill everything moving, you will regularly find only uninteresting battles, because I didn't yet tuned these parts of the game (and as I said, it's not my priority). In many case, you can win the scenario, but there is often a more subtle (and I hope more funny) way to go.

Friendly,
LS
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » October 9th, 2011, 5:03 pm

One scenario added and a version error: it's still 0.1.1 but I will not update only for that.

Have fun !
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Sneezy
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by Sneezy » October 14th, 2011, 2:57 pm

Hi-- you might recall that I had trouble back in Sept with scenario 4, "A Winter Trip." After you updated the campaign to 0.1.1, I made the update, and tried "A Winter Trip" again. (Now using win2k, BfW 1.9.6, RtN 0.1.1 beta.)

Figured out how to get through the night, and things proceeded fine after that. It was interesting & different, and I enjoyed it.

Enjoyed "Greywoods" also.

Am in the middle of "To Elensefar" at present, and may have found a problem: unit advancement is not working. Lestiviel has reached XP=40/32 and has not advanced; and a water element has reached XP=36/35 and has not advanced. I suspect that's not your intent.
I like this scenario...
Spoiler:
Thanks for your work on this campaign; it's a nice change from the usual.
--sneezy

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » October 15th, 2011, 6:57 am

Hi !
Sneezy wrote:Hi-- you might recall that I had trouble back in Sept with scenario 4, "A Winter Trip." After you updated the campaign to 0.1.1, I made the update, and tried "A Winter Trip" again. (Now using win2k, BfW 1.9.6, RtN 0.1.1 beta.)

Figured out how to get through the night, and things proceeded fine after that. It was interesting & different, and I enjoyed it.

Enjoyed "Greywoods" also.
Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you enjoyed this.
Sneezy wrote: Am in the middle of "To Elensefar" at present, and may have found a problem: unit advancement is not working. Lestiviel has reached XP=40/32 and has not advanced; and a water element has reached XP=36/35 and has not advanced. I suspect that's not your intent.
You're absolutely right. I've planned a special advancement for the main characters (and some tuning of their properties too), but it's not done yet, so some of them don't advance at all !
I could update them rather quickly but the problem is updates will not be taken into account in savegames. I'll think on this...
Sneezy wrote: Thanks for your work on this campaign; it's a nice change from the usual.
--sneezy
Many thanks for your comments and appreciations ! I hope you shall tell me more later.
Friendly,
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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chak_abhi
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by chak_abhi » December 21st, 2011, 4:14 pm

I have played a few scenarios of the campaign "Return to Noelren". Until now I must tell that everything is going well (as far as the campaign is concerned). Its evident that there are many things unique here, and should be tried by everyone who wants to test new aspects of the game.

However I have run into a problem in the scenario "Alnoth Caves". I found the place where the dwarf has to dig to find out a path to the deep caves, but I could not proceed any further. I had destroyed all the trolls as well as the water monsters beforehand. The help menu nudged me to use something called "special menu". But I have no idea about how to use these. Right-clicking the dwarf or any of the units do not help. So I am stuck here.

Anyway, this campaign is good for people like me who are not skilled enough to smash enemy forces being outnumbered by 10 times or so, but who have the patience to go through a interesting story. Hope that the campaign ends in a interesting manner too. The most serious effort you have given is obviously in the WML--it accounts for the complexity of this campaign. After completing the scenarios you must give some time to chalk out the advancement patterns of the heroes. The portraits of Patti & Boney should also be changed--they hardly look like warriors!

Good work has been displayed by you. Keep it up.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » December 23rd, 2011, 3:31 pm

chak_abhi wrote:I have played a few scenarios of the campaign "Return to Noelren". Until now I must tell that everything is going well (as far as the campaign is concerned). Its evident that there are many things unique here, and should be tried by everyone who wants to test new aspects of the game.

However I have run into a problem in the scenario "Alnoth Caves". I found the place where the dwarf has to dig to find out a path to the deep caves, but I could not proceed any further. I had destroyed all the trolls as well as the water monsters beforehand. The help menu nudged me to use something called "special menu". But I have no idea about how to use these. Right-clicking the dwarf or any of the units do not help. So I am stuck here.
Right-click the wall ! Not the units ! :)
chak_abhi wrote: Anyway, this campaign is good for people like me who are not skilled enough to smash enemy forces being outnumbered by 10 times or so, but who have the patience to go through a interesting story. Hope that the campaign ends in a interesting manner too. The most serious effort you have given is obviously in the WML--it accounts for the complexity of this campaign. After completing the scenarios you must give some time to chalk out the advancement patterns of the heroes. The portraits of Patti & Boney should also be changed--they hardly look like warriors!
Thanks for your kind comments and your good advices.
You're right: after completing the scenarios, I have much to do with characters design, both graphically and in WML, and many more things. Actually, the development was slowed down because I'm trying to master a little 3D modelling, in order to draw better portraits and pictures. But I hope to come back soon with some more scenarios.
Thanks for the support, merry Christmas and happy new year !

LS
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
Please help to to update the Guide to UMC Campaigns

chak_abhi
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by chak_abhi » December 26th, 2011, 6:10 pm

I have found a bug. The map of the scenario "Errands" couldn't be loaded due to an inappropriate tile 'Gg^Esz'. Please look into the problem.
I use BfW 1.9.10.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » December 28th, 2011, 4:41 pm

Sorry, a missing custom terrain...
I'll post an update at once.

Friendly,
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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren - a single player campaign

Post by pyrophorus » January 20th, 2012, 12:39 pm

Hi everybody,

Just a word to say version 0.2.0 is out with two new scenarios.

Have fun !
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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