Return to Noelren 0.7.6

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yukipol
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by yukipol » May 14th, 2014, 4:52 am

Treachery II:
It is 8MB.
I tried some more, failed, and now I have sent it to myself via Transfer Big Files, so you can pick it up at http://tbf.me/a/Ba260L

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » May 14th, 2014, 11:47 am

OK, I'll take a look at it.
Thanks...

Edit.
Well, the problem is you used Patti's magic wand to turn the lich boss into a rat in Treachery I.
There's nothing wrong doing that, but I didn't figure this case in the scenarios design, and it can ruin them (Pauline had a hard time with this too). I'm working to find a satisfactory solution to this.

But anyway, you need a way to get through. In Treachery II, Patti must be killed by the undeads (she will not die). It's the end condition. So, you should restart the scenario (using the RTN_Treachery_II file and not a savegame), and then wait Patti to be killed, using her to block access to the little cave where Lestiviel and Tiomen are. If you're tired of waiting this, you can even switch to debug mode, move the cursor over Patti and type:
:unit hitpoints=1
next attack should trigger her death and normal end of the scenario.

Thanks for the report and for playing the campaign.
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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yukipol
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by yukipol » May 16th, 2014, 10:23 pm

Treachery II:
Yes, it works when she dies but does not die.

After completing the game, thank you for the various nice ideas in it, such as the darkness induced by some units near the end, multiple hits in one move, depression of opponents, ...
I wonder whether you will add harder versions eventually, to complement the very easy current one?

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » May 17th, 2014, 11:23 am

yukipol wrote:Treachery II:
Yes, it works when she dies but does not die.

After completing the game, thank you for the various nice ideas in it, such as the darkness induced by some units near the end, multiple hits in one move, depression of opponents, ...
Thanks for your appreciation !
yukipol wrote: I wonder whether you will add harder versions eventually, to complement the very easy current one?
Yes, It is my plan. But I don't see clearly yet how to make it more difficult without suppressing the things you quoted and make the campaign rather different (and interesting, I hope). Multiplying the opponents is not a very practical solution because it results in very long turns, and many players (including me), don't like that.
If you have ideas, I'm open to hear them.

Friendly,
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yukipol
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by yukipol » May 18th, 2014, 7:49 am

pyrophorus wrote: If you have ideas, I'm open to hear them.

Friendly,
I have never thought of it this way, and I do not remember well the whole line, as it took some weeks between the start and the end, so I may want to review the whole game again, but here are some thoughts that come up at this moment.

*** Superheroes versus ordinary units
It is hard to mix them as often the ordinary units simply are not needed when the superheroes can complete the whole task much easier.
Perhaps you can restrict the number of ordinary units by money available in such scenarios where superheroes do interesting things, or not use superheroes at all in such scenes where there is some interest in letting ordinary units to level up or just have fun.
In fact the use of ordinary units gets not very interesting with the appearance of superheroes, so perhaps you can do more scenes or part scenes (start with super and only when something is done normal get in) without the ordinary ones.

*** Garard's army
It seems needed for the story, or else how he would become king, but it does not have much to do after it is created and later leveled up.
One possibility is to do more scenes for that army only, without super units, but this may still be not fun enough given that normal units pale when the player knows there is super units.
Perhaps you may do away with Garard's army altogether, and focus most of the play on the super units.

*** Alternative tasks for Garard's army
Make Tiomen and/or other super units go mad, cursed by some evil magic, and start attacking the army.
The army then has to help Patti to catch up with the mad one(s) and cure the evil spell.
It may be important to reduce the strength of mad one's hits to make it work, and the degree of reduction may be different for different levels of difficulty.
As Patti cures, she also learns how to do it and tells Garard.
In the next scene, Garard has to apply it to some unkillable magi, like you have in some scenes, without help from any superheroes. The bad magi then turn into friendly ordinary magi (not a hero, as there are lots already). The unkillable magi should be faster than Garard, and the difference in their speeds as well as their number may be different for different levels of difficulty.

*** Multiple hits per turn:
Perhaps you can use multiple vital dangers at some geometrical distance from each other. Not so far as to ruin multi-hit altogether, but to make its use more difficult.

*** Petrifaction
If Lestivel is to pass some narrow passages attacked from many sides, petrified enemies may block her passage and make the game lost. This may require complex planning on how to lead her through.
Different levels of difficulty may then have different rates of enemy inflow.

*** Turning enemies into level 0 monsters
In more difficult versions, you may perhaps allow higher level and more dangerous monsters, and perhaps a gauntlet similar to that for Lestivel above.
Also, perhaps you may devise a scene where Patti must create a particular monster which then is to do something pivotal.

*** Sad story
In more difficult versions, make it possible to continue after Tiomen and his friend kill all the orcs, and make some bonus for surviving, perhaps keeping his friend along in some subsequent scene(s).

*** Optional side scenes
Make use of extra optional scenarios, which can be skipped by players if they do not want them, but are more difficult than the main line scenes.

yukipol
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by yukipol » May 18th, 2014, 3:12 pm

pyrophorus wrote: If you have ideas, I'm open to hear them.

Friendly,
Something else I remembered:
In Treachery II there is a bug in that if a not-auto save is done, after reloading the petrified units wake up.
This means that it is possible to spoil the intermediate saves between the auto-saves.
You may perhaps turn this bug into a feature of the more difficult levels.
I do not know what spoiling is possible.
If it is possible, you may perhaps to make it so that the re-loading brings up the last auto-save instead of what was saved.
If you do the spoiling, it would be important to warn the players about it.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » May 18th, 2014, 5:06 pm

Wow ! Thanks ! This is a whole bunch of ideas !
yukipol wrote: Something else I remembered:
In Treachery II there is a bug in that if a not-auto save is done, after reloading the petrified units wake up.
Yes, I know. It's a problem with the game: petrification (and other state things like hiding) are not restored correctly from a savegame. I can't help it.

Now with your ideas.
yukipol wrote:
*** Superheroes versus ordinary units

*** Garard's army
Well, you caught the point here. Even when superheroes can't do everything alone, they make ordinary units less interesting. I've tried to create some scenarios where they're missing (First Battle: the river crossing) or need someone else (Colerun the mage in Finding Allies), break the team in two at Morwin Castle and so on.
I will dig into the idea they could lose their power sometimes. Tiomen and Beren get their power from their special weapon, which could be lost, stolen, and so on. Same with Patti's wand.

I have in mind two more scenarios where objectives are such they don't need special powers, but I could add more where super heroes are disabled.
yukipol wrote: *** Multiple hits per turn:
Perhaps you can use multiple vital dangers at some geometrical distance from each other. Not so far as to ruin multi-hit altogether, but to make its use more difficult.
A way to do this would be giving not the skirmisher ability. Multiple hits are still possible, but the unit can't move after the first strike (as if it was ambushed). I could disable this in Hard level.
yukipol wrote: *** Petrifaction
If Lestivel is to pass some narrow passages attacked from many sides, petrified enemies may block her passage and make the game lost. This may require complex planning on how to lead her through.
Maybe you discovered not Tiomen has the ability to crush petrified units. I added this to avoid exactly the problem you quote. Anyway, there are a lot of problem with petrification: savegames, units petrified and still attacking, and so on. Maybe I could only destroy these petrified units on next turn, or turn them to something else: it's rather absurd they block only enemy units and not all of them.
yukipol wrote: *** Turning enemies into level 0 monsters
In more difficult versions, you may perhaps allow higher level and more dangerous monsters, and perhaps a gauntlet similar to that for Lestivel above.
Also, perhaps you may devise a scene where Patti must create a particular monster which then is to do something pivotal.
Yes, that's a good (and easy to implement) idea. Even if this can result in more powerful monsters (a rat turned into an Armaggedon Drake, oops !).
yukipol wrote: *** Sad story
In more difficult versions, make it possible to continue after Tiomen and his friend kill all the orcs, and make some bonus for surviving, perhaps keeping his friend along in some subsequent scene(s).
Excuse me but, I really wonder how you could manage to kill all the orcs here. Heroes are widely outnumbered, and villagers offer little help. I would be really glad to see a replay of this deed. (In my tests,villagers are swept out in three or four turns, and the two blacksmiths manage to kill three or four orcs at most: they're quickly surrounded by a lot of orcs and can't survive many multiple attacks).
yukipol wrote: *** Optional side scenes
Make use of extra optional scenarios, which can be skipped by players if they do not want them, but are more difficult than the main line scenes.
Yes, but when you skip such a scenario, you skip an opportunity to strengthen your army, which can create a problem later.
I think it's extremely difficult to create the perfect campaign, full of ideas and funny abilities and difficult enough to satisfy very good players. This because any new thing ruins the balance and gives a huge advantage to his/her owner.

Thanks a lot for this feedback !

Friendly,
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yukipol
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by yukipol » May 20th, 2014, 12:53 am

pyrophorus wrote:
yukipol wrote: *** Sad story
In more difficult versions, make it possible to continue after Tiomen and his friend kill all the orcs, and make some bonus for surviving, perhaps keeping his friend along in some subsequent scene(s).
Excuse me but, I really wonder how you could manage to kill all the orcs here. Heroes are widely outnumbered, and villagers offer little help. I would be really glad to see a replay of this deed. (In my tests,villagers are swept out in three or four turns, and the two blacksmiths manage to kill three or four orcs at most: they're quickly surrounded by a lot of orcs and can't survive many multiple attacks).

Thanks a lot for this feedback !

Friendly,
I have sent to myself a zip of all the saves, auto and not, from the Sad Story.
You can download it from
http://tbf.me/a/iwzT8
(This solution is simple geometry, apparently available in the map just by coincidence, and I doubt anything else can work).

On petrified:
I know Tiomen can crush them.
I thought of having no Tiomen available when Lestivel has to run a gauntlet.

On giving up skirmisher ability to curb multiple hits:
This may be too much of a destruction.
What I had in mind was to have plain distances between enemies to be a problem, but not insurmountable problem.

A side idea, inspired by but not quite like traveling salesman:
Make a graph of bridges, so that for each enemy to kill there is only one hex where Tiomen can stand and kill that enemy.
Then, when Tiomen kills, this hex becomes impassable (Tiomen can leave but never come back).
It may make it difficult to plan the killings without leaving some enemies inaccesible.

Jabie
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by Jabie » August 22nd, 2014, 7:24 am

Enjoying it so far. It plays more like a fairy tale than a battle game - but that's good. It give the game a different feel and makes it stand out from other add-ons. Here are the bugs and oddities that I've noticed.

Glynn Forest

* I know that you can use the hints to tell you where to go next but having the player chase some kind of will-o-the-wisp would a) make it more obvious precisely which tile you should go and stand in next to trigger the next event and b) would fit into the whole "haunted, magic woods" vibe you're trying to create.
* During one play through I managed to trap Tiomin on Lestiviel's island (he self-moved there) and I had to reload due to impassable terrain.

On the road

* On my first run through I ran across the plains (it was faster) and then was asked about a wolf and some undead. Cue much puzzlement. I replayed it, following the road and triggered the event. I recommend putting swamps in the South East corner so that the road route is clearly faster and other players will not make this mistake in the future.
* Wulfie attacked my cart instead of the zombies when he first appeared.
* I inadvertently destroyed my entire first retinue of militia with a bomb because the timings were out and they were too stupid to run away from the bomb that I laid in next to the forest. Inexplicably the mayor did not seem to mind that I'd just slaughtered half the village.

A Winter Trip

* Was their meant to be anything in the abandoned fort? I sent Tiomen to investigate but nothing happened.
* I was ambushed by a wolf (not Wulfie) but couldn't see him because he stepped on my campfire. Next turn the wolf turned friendly. I'm guessing the game got confused, thought the campfire was my object and therefore the enemy wolf on the same hex was also my unit and switched teams on me.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » August 22nd, 2014, 12:39 pm

Thanks for your feedback and appreciation !
Jabie wrote:... It plays more like a fairy tale than a battle game - but that's good.
Yes, it was the goal...
Jabie wrote: * During one play through I managed to trap Tiomin on Lestiviel's island (he self-moved there) and I had to reload due to impassable terrain.
Yes, I had this problem too. It's kind of bug in WML (or something I missed) in the moveto instruction. The unit always moves to its destination, even if it has to cross impassable terrain.
Jabie wrote: * On my first run through I ran across the plains (it was faster) and then was asked about a wolf and some undead. Cue much puzzlement. I replayed it, following the road and triggered the event. I recommend putting swamps in the South East corner so that the road route is clearly faster and other players will not make this mistake in the future.
It's a good idea. Thanks.
Jabie wrote: * Wulfie attacked my cart instead of the zombies when he first appeared.
This attack is programmed. Wulfie is not under AI control then.
Spoiler:
Jabie wrote: * I inadvertently destroyed my entire first retinue of militia with a bomb because the timings were out and they were too stupid to run away from the bomb that I laid in next to the forest. Inexplicably the mayor did not seem to mind that I'd just slaughtered half the village.
I don't want to punish the player ! BTW, we are here to kill, isn't it ? :lol:
Jabie wrote: * Was their meant to be anything in the abandoned fort? I sent Tiomen to investigate but nothing happened.
I can say without spoiling anything, you shall return later on the same map (and the fort shall be populated then !)
Jabie wrote: * I was ambushed by a wolf (not Wulfie) but couldn't see him because he stepped on my campfire. Next turn the wolf turned friendly. I'm guessing the game got confused, thought the campfire was my object and therefore the enemy wolf on the same hex was also my unit and switched teams on me.
Yes, I have a lot of problems of this kind with campfires. In the next version (WIP), I hope I shall fix ALL what can happen (see former posts to see what I mean).

Hope, you'll give more feedback on the sequel. And thanks for these !

Friendly,
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ketus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by ketus » September 10th, 2014, 3:41 pm

Hi,
I'm playing the Alnoth Island scenario. I found the smuggers cave (with help from this thread) but right clicking doesn't let me light a fire. Infact, I haven't been able to start a fire in any scenario. Can you help me fix this bug please. I use version 1.10.2 on Ubuntu.

Also, the pictures of Lithiviel, the "sexy" swimmer and her sister are in pretty poor taste. I'm sure this game is mostly played by healthy young men, but some of us are feminists and think the sexual objectification of people is holding us all back.

I'm enjoying the campaign overall though - nice original twist in the gameplay. Thumbs up.

K

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » September 12th, 2014, 9:29 am

Hi !
ketus wrote: Can you help me fix this bug please. I use version 1.10.2 on Ubuntu.
I don't think it's a bug. To ligth a fire, you must:
  • Move Tiomen on a forested hex.
  • Rigth click on a hex adjacent to him (not on him).
This should work.
ketus wrote:Also, the pictures of Lithiviel, the "sexy" swimmer and her sister are in pretty poor taste. I'm sure this game is mostly played by healthy young men, but some of us are feminists and think the sexual objectification of people is holding us all back.
I'm sorry if you feel offended, but, this is only a game, a fancy, and I pretend not to picture real women. More of it, it's difficult to get good portraits for a custom campaign and these are provisonnal. I hope to be able to create a better set by myself soon (no chain mail bikinis and ridiculous things of the like).

Thanks for playing the campaign !

Friendly,
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mightysprite
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by mightysprite » July 9th, 2015, 1:53 am

I've been quite enjoying this campaign. An exploration-based campaign is a really great idea, and it seems every scenario has a new creative idea in it!
I especially like Patti's magic wand, hopping between worlds (there could have been more of this beyond just the Errands scenario), Lestiviel's special abilities, and the darkness-creating units.

Like other posters, I've gotten stuck behind walls of petrified units. Using Tiomen to attack them never occurred to me until reading this forum. I had thought part of the strategy was just avoiding that situation, as a trade-off for the fact that you can use walls of petrified units to block the enemy when desired.

I'd love to play the rest of it, but I am stuck on Victory (ironically). All enemy leaders are dead, including the mage -- he was killed by mushrooms. I don't know what else I need to do to win. I've attached a save. I asked Nerins Lady to retreat, but she went off to attack mushrooms instead, which I'm sure will kill her in a turn or two.

The portraits really bothered me from the beginning, partly because the female characters' photographs are disrespectful toward women, but mainly because the Lestiviel one is in the uncanny valley. I couldn't stand to look at it. And in a campaign with a lot of story, you look at the portraits a lot. So I replaced the female characters' portraits with portraits from mainline campaigns. Which is... exactly the same thing you did to create the male characters' portraits. Why not do that for the female characters too? Anyway, in case anyone else wants to save their eyeballs by doing as I did, just go into the portraits directory for some other campaign and copy-paste the portraits of your choosing into the portraits directory for RtN, being sure to change the filename in the destination directory to match the character.
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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by pyrophorus » July 15th, 2015, 5:25 am

mightysprite wrote:I've been quite enjoying this campaign. An exploration-based campaign is a really great idea, and it seems every scenario has a new creative idea in it!
I especially like Patti's magic wand, hopping between worlds (there could have been more of this beyond just the Errands scenario), Lestiviel's special abilities, and the darkness-creating units.
Thanks for your appreciation !
mightysprite wrote: Like other posters, I've gotten stuck behind walls of petrified units. Using Tiomen to attack them never occurred to me until reading this forum. I had thought part of the strategy was just avoiding that situation, as a trade-off for the fact that you can use walls of petrified units to block the enemy when desired.
BTW, some features should not be used too extensively if you don't want to run into problems with the scenario. I could have set some limits (bombs number, mushrooms seeds and so on), but I don't like that.
mightysprite wrote:
I'd love to play the rest of it, but I am stuck on Victory (ironically). All enemy leaders are dead, including the mage -- he was killed by mushrooms. I don't know what else I need to do to win. I've attached a save. I asked Nerins Lady to retreat, but she went off to attack mushrooms instead, which I'm sure will kill her in a turn or two.
I suspect the large number of toxic mushrooms is responsible of your problem. The bad mage can be killed, but is restored immediately. Maybe the crowded state of his castle prevented his coming back. Anyway, the scenario ends on turn 5 with the coming back of Lestiviel and co and the last kill on the mage. And the campaign too. You'll miss only some final dialogs. Maybe you could restart the scenario and wait for turn 5, protecting the Nerins Lady and not trying to kill the bad mage.

Same with the Nerins lady retreat. It works not for some obscure reason: the AI starts it and gives up as if there was no path to the town.
mightysprite wrote:
The portraits really bothered me from the beginning, partly because the female characters' photographs are disrespectful toward women, but mainly because the Lestiviel one is in the uncanny valley. I couldn't stand to look at it. And in a campaign with a lot of story, you look at the portraits a lot. So I replaced the female characters' portraits with portraits from mainline campaigns. Which is... exactly the same thing you did to create the male characters' portraits. Why not do that for the female characters too? Anyway, in case anyone else wants to save their eyeballs by doing as I did, just go into the portraits directory for some other campaign and copy-paste the portraits of your choosing into the portraits directory for RtN, being sure to change the filename in the destination directory to match the character.
I'm not really happy with the campaign portraits and they're certainly not one of the strong points of the campaign. Many of them are more place holders than anything, but I've not yet the graphic skills to create better pictures. I don't think they're particularly offensive or disrespectful, but it's a matter of taste and culture, and I don't feel offended is someone prefers to replace them with anything else (mainline, Star Wars pictures, Batman, MichelAngelo...). I only think it becomes more difficult to follow the story when protagonists share the same picture with ordinary units.

Friendly,
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.7.6

Post by ArtfulDodger » August 14th, 2018, 4:55 am

Alnoth island

Immediately upon rescuing the swimmer from her assailants I get an error message that the image doesn’t fit on canvas.



iOS 11.4.1
Wesnoth 1.10.5

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