Return to Noelren 0.7.6

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

lynx wrote:i actually tried to light a fire in the forest, but only under the smith - didn't think about the surroundings.

"You can light campfires only in forest tiles. You also have to be standing in one [if this is really also needed]."
Thanks, OK, I will update.

But I can't resist to say I never tried to light a fire... under my ass... :lol2: :lol2:

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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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lynx
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by lynx »

but you did bombs? :whistle:

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

lynx wrote:but you did bombs? :whistle:
They're supposed to be heavy and can't be thrown. So one can only drop them, light them and run ... :D

I admit willingly all this is not very intuitive and user friendly, but Wesnoth have limited user interface features. We must live with it.
BTW, in next level, you'll find the same difficulty: have to right-cllick on an hex near the dwarf and *not* on it.

Thanks for playing the campaign. I hope you enjoy it.

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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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lynx
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by lynx »

I liked the diversity, but got bored in the longwinded road to Noelren (world hopping). Fatally so once I realised the carriage needs to get to the end, not just anybody like before.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

lynx wrote:I liked the diversity, but got bored in the longwinded road to Noelren (world hopping). Fatally so once I realised the carriage needs to get to the end, not just anybody like before.
Yeah... Some players like it as is and some not...
Maybe I could set an option here, offering the player the choice to skip one world or two.

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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Guy
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by Guy »

I cant change my world/map whatever it is, in "Errands" when i had Tiomen, Wulfie and a few more units going to the normal village in the map with the 3 dwarfs. The other units were all at the last world waiting for tiomen

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

Guy wrote:I cant change my world/map whatever it is, in "Errands" when i had Tiomen, Wulfie and a few more units going to the normal village in the map with the 3 dwarfs. The other units were all at the last world waiting for tiomen
What do you mean, 'waiting for Tiomen' ? I don't understand clearly your problem here.
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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Guy
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by Guy »

In errands there are 5 worlds, and you will appear back in world 1 after travelling through 4 other worlds, desert, forest with caves, swamp, and snowy terrain thing. However, after bringing the bulk of my army back through the cottage in the snowy map back into the first map, when I finally killed the shock trooper leader, Tiomen and some other troops were still in the snowy map. When I tried to switch map, it couldn't. Anyway what is the objective?

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

Hi !
If you could post a replay, it would be fine.
The objective is moving the carriage to the sign post in the first map.
If you can't go back to the snowy world (or get it at the beginning of a new turn) this means the scenario "believes" (wrongly), none of your units are there. I wonder why, but it is possible if you created some units in debug mode.
Thanks for playing the game and reporting.
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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Guy
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by Guy »

I was stuck but managed to use batty's summoned up bats to cross the sea in world 1 and go back to snow world and ended with about 100 turns. I'm stuck on perilous crossing now. What is the objective? I moved all the heroes to the west marker, they disappear, and the rest of my troops are at the north bank with the rafts.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

Hi !
It seems you've fufilled the objectives which are:
- moving all units except heroes across the river (using rafts).
- moving heroes to the west, (they must disappear).

If you have already do that exactly, I would be glad to have a savegame to see what happened. Anyway, you can activate debug mode and trigger directly victory. Another way to do that is fetching a variable named 'etat'. It must be > 29. Change the value to something higher if needed, Take an unit on a raft for a short trip and unboard it on the north bank. It should work.

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Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
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Guy
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by Guy »

I used debug mode and created a random unit and used it to attack the enemy and after it was killed I won the scenario. At gryphon mountain the save games in perilous crossing and gryphon mountain became corrupted. I had to restart perilous journey and after winning I continued playing. Is Noelren Besieged - II the last scenario? Cause I'm there. Overall it is probably the longest campaign I've ever played in Wesnoth. Most scenarios have interesting things such as changing worlds in Errands and training an army in Army Training. However don't make the scenarios too long cause people like me tend to get bored of it and pause for sometime when we get stuck in some parts. But Awesome Campaign!

Guy

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

Hi !
Thanks for your reply and comments. These are precious for improving the campaign.
First of all, yes, you're quite at the end.
It's a rather long campaign, and I'm aware it can be boring at time, but I hope unusual things in it can sustain interest as for you (if I understand correctly). In further versions, I will try to improve that to satisfy more players.
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chak_abhi
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by chak_abhi »

I have finished playing the campaign. I rate it above average since there are so many new aspects here--the story is extra-ordinary no doubt but the most interesting feature is the manner in which you have tweaked WML, thereby stretching its limits.
However I feel that there are some issues to be addressed in order to make the campaign better. These are:
1. Some more details regarding Noelren & Nerins. It is clear that Noelren is an elvish kingdom but Nerins is ruled by humans. But none of them are present in the existing Wesnoth timeline. So were the humans who inhabited Nerins pre-Wesnoth settlers? How did both Noelren & Nerins disappear from the face of the earth?

2. Lestiviel is no doubt an interesting character. But I really hoped that some more information regarding her parents would be available later in the campaign, especially how and why they were killed. The necklace still remains a mystery. The history of the Aelthrank is also not quite clear. How did it came in the wood where Tiomen & Lestiviel got lost? It may be assumed that Tiomen gave it to Othra before crossing the worlds, but again how did it came to lie in the desolate swamps? Again, where did Tiomen leave it before the battle of Weldyn?

3. Patti and Boney are also strong characters. The question is how and why did 2 great warriors choose to live in a desolate island, away from human settlements. And was one of them an elf and the other a human(The information about the respective units suggest so)? In that case they probably had a mixed ancestry.

4. Dolmandir is the most mysterious character. From what is known about him that he has got immense power, and can destroy any evil foe single-handedly, no matter how strong they are. But why in the first place did he choose to mix the worlds? He would've easily foreseen that this work of his would create too much trouble. He asked Tiomen to visit Noelren by crossing the worlds for some obscure reason (may be to save Noelren, but he could've done this on his own if he had wanted). He allowed the Sambrands and the Wesnothians (was General Cleogan from Wesnoth actually?) to be brainwashed by the Janishaders easily, which is still more mysterious. He wanted to meet Lestiviel, but instead of asking her to find him he could have easily come to her (if he could be summoned so easily by Othra in a dark pit where Tiomen, Lestiviel & Boney were petrified, he could have easily made access to Lestiviel no doubt), so why did he choose to act in the difficult way? And he was supposed to be in search of more knowledge. What was this all about?

5. Who were the Janishaders? They were no doubt humans, but from where did they come. Wesnoth is unlikely, since necromancy was strictly prohibited there. So were they a faction of the inhabitants of Nerins? And who actually was Jani? How did he bring so many Mages of Light under his fold? And who were the innumerable ancient liches who turn up here and there in the game? (Ancient Liches are supposed to be very rare)

6. In the scenario of crossing the worlds, it will be better if the part involving travelling through frozen grounds is cut a bit shorter.

7. The scenario about defending Fremagel is really a pain, considering that it is a pointless work, playing with units that would be lost at the end of the scenario. Please consider decreasing the starting gold or the income (or both) of the enemies.

8. How did Princess Annuviel turn up in a remote corner of Wesnoth all of a sudden? Why didn't she take refuge in elvish territory, where she would've been welcomed? Was she ashamed of her past? Was she trying to make amends by allying with Garard (quite unlikely, considering that he was a mere peasant at that time)?

9. Why did Tiomen choose to return to Wesnoth by road rather by the sea (which would've been a lot shorter, and perhaps safer considering his friendship with the merfolk)?

10. The scenario about meeting the Sambrands after clearing insect holes is too tedious, owing to the large number of enemies, which confuse the ai. It would be prudent to cut it a bit shorter.

11. In the scenario about training an army, it is advised in the hints to raise a large army. But I feel that it is absolutely unnecessary. All you have to do is to kill the caravan guards and loot the caravans, for which only 2-3 spearmen, 1-2 bowman/mage and 2-3 horsemen are more than sufficient. If you raise more soldiers you will only make your work more difficult in the next scenario (more number of soldiers would have to be crossed, which would take more time, thus allowing the enemies to charge you relentlessly).

12. In the scenario about crossing the river, it would be better to cut the gold of the enemies, but give them a large income so that they will continuously recruit soldiers. And there was an error--a raft must not be allowed to board into another as an unit (looks ridiculous).

13. The power of Beren's sword (which was handed to him by Annuviel's father) needs explanation, since it turns him almost invincible.

14. Why did Ecken and his outlaws agree to accompany Princess Annuviel to Noelren? Appears weird.

15. The scenario "Nerin's swamps" is tremendously overbalanced. The allies are much more strong than the enemies. Moreover if you have an unbeatable unit like Beren on your side you can batter any opposition easily, no matter how strong they are.

16. The map of Weldyn is ridiculous. A capital city with no garrison, no walls, and only a single general in charge is absurd. Moreover, where is this King Duluth?

17. Of all enemies present the shadow-casters are the most dangerous. I couldn't see anything in the dark, and had to rely on the allies to get rid of them. Please make some adjustments so that at least some units have the power to destroy this ability.

18. At the end Lestiviel says that she would've to be some kind of queen. But where exactly? Definitely not Noelren, where Princess Annuviel is the natural heir. And I think you seriously need to give some time on the dialogue. For example when Soradoc falls there is not a single word from the victors (considering the sheer strength of the enemies). And after Weldyn falls Garard doesn't speak a word! He also fails to thank Tiomen at any time, even at the end.

19. Tiomen & Garard are heroes. So why they don't have their own portraits? And as I had mentioned in a previous post, Patti and Boney must have their portraits changed. At present they look like some fashionable ladies of the 21st century (not warriors of 12th century)!

20. The hints in the last scenario (defending Noelren) has to be changed, since it displays the hints of a previous scenario (troll valley). And there are too many spelling mistakes all throughout the campaign. These need to be corrected.

All well that ends well. You have ended your campaign well, which is praiseworthy, considering the complexity involved here (I wouldn't mind if you can just tell me how to build bridges, I seriously consider putting it in one of my campaigns). It will be better if you can just improve on the battle scenarios (at present only "Taking Soradoc" is interesting, the rest are either under-balanced or overbalanced). Otherwise kudos for your great work.

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pyrophorus
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Re: Return to Noelren 0.6 - now complete

Post by pyrophorus »

First of all, thanks a lot for this large and detailed report !

Now, I will not reply on all points. Mostly, I would say I agree with your comments (or criticisms). My only excuse is this campaign is still a work in progress, and hopefully, I will address all the issues you marked here.

Portraits, for instance, need to be replaced. I would like to have some sprites for the main characters, too. The story in itself, has many flaws, mainly because geography don't match clearly events: for instance, it's difficult to understand why Lestiviel don't go to the south where Dolmandir's lair is located, and so on. Many dialogs and even cut scenes are missing, particularly to explain how Garard becomes king at the end of Weldyn conquest.
chak_abhi wrote:I have finished playing the campaign. I rate it above average since there are so many new aspects here--the story is extra-ordinary no doubt but the most interesting feature is the manner in which you have tweaked WML, thereby stretching its limits.
Actually, this what I worked most, and probably the thing I'm best at. My goal was to feature rather unusual things and challenges and I hope I succeeded here.

That said, I will reply globally on your points. Letting apart the bugs you reported (12 & 20, I will fix them of course), your comments apply on two main points: the story and the battles/balancing.

First with the story.
The story is not very original... on purpose. In this first trial, I wished not the player to be rebuked with strange characters or too much text and complex ideas. After all, it's a game, and many players don't like too much text transitions. I tried to give the unavoidable explanations in short and concise dialogues, and maybe this is not enough for curious people. Even if I admit willingly many points of the story remains obscure and unexplained, I am rather surprised you didn't catch the implications of what is explained in scenario 2 by Glynnador the mage: many parallels worlds exist and normally never melt or communicate. The Telshar clan is responsible to keep things in order. But someone, (Jani perhaps) had the idea to mix some worlds in order to create disorder and take control on all them. That's why Lestiviel's parents are searched and killed, because they have normally the power to prevent that. That's why Noelren and Nerins kingdoms spring up from nowhere, and vanish at the end, when Lestiviel manage to separate the melting worlds again (and when the "Dark Age blackhole" in Wesnoth history ends).
Dolmandir is certainly a powerful guy, but he has no control on this world management. That's why he is relegated somewhere and can't do much to join Lestiviel.

As you can imagine easily, this story was built to be inserted in the mainline history, without being too much restricted on what I could tell. Wesnoth history in classical age is a very strict frame, and if you don't want to chronicle one more conflict humans/elves versus orcs/undeads, featuring some dwarves and saurians as guest stars, you must escape in some way: in the past, in the future, far away in the east or the west. I choosed to escape in parallels worlds, which is certainly not very believable. :D But, this allows me to "justify" (sic) the weird habit I have to scavenge maps in my scenarios (Errands, particularly rely on the parallel worlds idea, and I think you'll admit it is one of my best scenarios, even if it is too long).
I shall try to polish all this mess, but I don't hope to finally produce a really consistent story.
Now, should I add a lot more texts and scenes to explain better the story ? It's really a difficult point, since players wishes are contradictory. Some hit escape without reading any 'story' text, some appreciate a fully developed and well written story. And maybe it's not very smart trying to stay in the middle as I'm doing for now...

Now for the characters characteristics/battles/balancing.
All this is far from final, of course. Some things are not yet consistent, like the recall lists across all the campaign, and maintaining units characteristics and weapons (your point 2). I'm working on this with three objectives:
- Design really different difficulty levels. For now, there are just some tuning of enemies sides (gold, recruit, and so on). I think the 'easy' level should be more or less the campaign as it is, including the overpowered characters (I think they are fun if you only want to walk the story without any strategic concern).
- Design main characters according to difficulty and give them a special advancement. So you will not have a super hero like Beren able to storm a crowded battlefield in less than five turns (at least in normal and hard).
- Review battles to make them more interesting and mostly harder ( at least in normal and hard levels). For instance, in taking Soradoc, where the player can (too) easily take control on the bridge castle, I think I will make enemies build bridges over the river.
chak_abhi wrote: (I wouldn't mind if you can just tell me how to build bridges, I seriously consider putting it in one of my campaigns).
You're welcome... If I remember correctly, it should be a macro in utils/RTN_scenario.cfg. Feel free to ask me if you don't find.
chak_abhi wrote: It will be better if you can just improve on the battle scenarios (at present only "Taking Soradoc" is interesting, the rest are either under-balanced or overbalanced). Otherwise kudos for your great work.
Really ? You found some scenarios too hard ? (too easy, I know, most of them are).

Thanks again for your feedback !
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