The Four Champions

[Arawn]

This is a discussion thread for the single player campaign The Four Champions, available for 1.8. Right now, about half of the campaign is uploaded (or at least I think it is...). A lot of work is already under way on the second half but I would like to know what people thought so far before I continue. What I have posted so far is tested and should run. That said, I make changes all the time and would not be surprised if there was a bug. Feel free to point any out. These are just some general thoughts I would like people to consider:

The campaign will eventually be available in easy/medium/hard, but currently I need to balance easy. How sufficient is gold, how tough are enemies, etc?
The player can only recruit a type of unit for one scenario, and must afterwards recall them. How well is that working out?
I have tried to vary units by giving out unique unit choices at the end of the first two scenarios and later on. Are they interesting?
Most importantly: Is the storyline good as far as plot is concerned?
Some of the scenarios do not currently have music. I'm working on it, but any recommendations are welcome.
Also, I don't suppose anyone knows of a sprite for a female human archer (Sylvie) or a human wielding an axe (Chris) that are floating around? Just hoping...

Or talk about something else... I'm good with any kind of feedback.

[Coffee]

Hello. I had a go at this campaign. Seems like it is alright an idea and is for sure playable.

Okay, here are some things I found for feedback:

I died the first 2 times I played this on the first scenario. Maybe you need a delay + scroll to keep + flashing icon for a bit so that people like me don't go off with only 2 characters to fight the thugs. Yes -- it is obvious you can recruit with the fencer from the storyline (he has no leader crown if I remember right), but I read that carefully only after I died twice.

In the first scenario there is water+impassible hexes! Then there is castle+impassible later on in the snow. What's this for?

The campaign crashes after the cave level.

Using a sighted event for the second scenario is a bad idea (due to bugs in this event). Probably better to use a moveto and see if y coordinate is below a certain number or something.

Maybe it would be a good idea to set the turn limit after checking around the snow village to fight the enemies.

IMO you could use more the scroll + delay and other effects (like last breath events, etc.) to add more emphasis to certain key points to the game.

[Arawn]

Hello. I had a go at this campaign. Seems like it is alright an idea and is for sure playable.

Thanks. Glad I finally got a tester.

I died the first 2 times I played this on the first scenario. Maybe you need a delay + scroll to keep + flashing icon for a bit so that people like me don't go off with only 2 characters to fight the thugs. Yes -- it is obvious you can recruit with the fencer from the storyline (he has no leader crown if I remember right), but I read that carefully only after I died twice.

I have now edited this. There are some strong hints about recruiting. The enemy leader is also made visible.

In the first scenario there is water+impassible hexes! Then there is castle+impassible later on in the snow. What's this for?

In 01, this is to make sure the bandits don't charge through the river. I'm not sure if I will keep it - let's wait for more reactions.
In 03, this is to make sure that the characters only enter/leave the village through the "main gate". Anything else seems to break the story, but if more people object to it (or if just one person makes a strong argument), I will remove it.

The campaign crashes after the cave level.

No idea why this happens. Will look into it tonight.
UPDATE: Looked into it... doesn't happen for me. Do you know where exactly it crashed or what error it sent out?

Using a sighted event for the second scenario is a bad idea (due to bugs in this event). Probably better to use a moveto and see if y coordinate is below a certain number or something.

Do you mean that there is an error the way I'm using it or in general?
UPDATE: Replaying it right now... I think I see what you mean. I didn't know 'sighted' worked like that. It's been changed, but not uploaded just yet. Tomorrow, most likely.

Maybe it would be a good idea to set the turn limit after checking around the snow village to fight the enemies.

Will do.

[Arawn]

I will post an updated campaign soon, after I fix the error in the caves. To keep people updated:

Development:
I forgot to mention that in the second half of the campaign, I will attempt to create a dungeon-crawling feel. The characters will make their way through several scenarios of a "dungeon", coming back to Merisia (snow village) after each level to talk to villagers and get quests. The closest I can come to describing it is a mix of Descent into Darkness' A Small Favor scenarios and the four quests from Rise of Wesnoth. Think Diablo I.
Since this is going to involve dialogue, I'd like to know how players liked the first bit of it in 03 (snow village). Was going to houses and "talking" to people enjoyable? Did it add to the plot/storyline? Would you do it again?

Questions:
I don't suppose anyone knows how to increase a unit's movement points?
Also, how did you guys/girls feel about the campaign being set in another place? Would you prefer if I set it in Wesnoth? It wouldn't take that much work, really. Just wondering.

[SkyOne]

Hi Arawn,
Congratulations for updating this campaign.

It seems my name is on the credit list, thank you, but (eh!) as the campaign design?
You don't have to put my name on the section. This is 100% your campaign.


Anyway, my suggestions from the 1st scenario.
- confusing a little bit where they should go to finish the scenario, so better to make it clearer
- better to put the leader crown to Zack (actually, just remove {IS_LOYAL} from him) -- > actually, I can see the leader crown under the loyal overlay, but it does not really look nice. If you want to change it on your way, using {MODIFY_UNIT id=Zack overlays "something you want"} is probably better.
- decreasing the map size will be nice
- too much TRAIT modifications that we cannot see on the game screen for loyal units (recommendation; 3 or less)

P.S. polishing up Saurian Guard and Champion for 1.8 is updated with new FoaP 0.8.8.
Let me know if you think to upload the campaign to 1.9. They are ready on it, too.

Good luck.

EDIT:

Questions:
I don't suppose anyone knows how to increase a unit's movement points?

You can use a MODIFY_UNIT macro or an [object] tag to change its movement.

Also, how did you guys/girls feel about the campaign being set in another place? Would you prefer if I set it in Wesnoth? It wouldn't take that much work, really. Just wondering.

Well, it is up to you.
Usually, people set up campaigns inside or around Wesnoth because they can use many of its features, including BG-map, and creating story in a limited environment is fun. Also, people play more in the case. However, the most important thing is how fun or enjoyable the game with a good storyline and dialogues is. (for example, The Unstoppable Legion.) Or you can do half and half that what I am doing recently.

[Arawn]

New Version up! You can now play through the ground level and the first level of the castle.

Stuff I've changed:
More levels
Fixed a bug with the Blackoak Bow
Added one quest
Added a few items
Brian now has his own unit, though it is basically the white mage line
Added difficulty levels

Stuff I'm still working on:
More levels
More items
More quests
Something like a quest log... we'll see
Special units for Zack (almost done), Chris, and Sylvie
Speaking of Sylvie, still trying to find a female archer sprite.
Question: In what scenario would you stick a wolf-pelt wearing warrior? Any ideas? The sprite is too good to pass up.
Actually differentiate difficulty levels...

[Boldek]

when I downloaded the campaign, I couldn't find it on my campaign list.

edit: never mind, I found it, I was just confusing it with Httt

[Jaume]

I understand that Sylvie is supposed to be fully human at some point (when you find an appropriate sprite), but at the moment she's an Elvish Archer and it makes no sense to give the 'fearless' trait to a neutral unit. For the time being you might consider making her lawful (?)

[Arawn]

That is a good idea about Sylvie and I will get on it... in a month. Classes currently have me swamped. Same goes for all development on this. I was really, really hoping to have it out before Sep. 16th, but that clearly didn't happen. My next goal is to have it out before Oct. 31st or on the 31st. We'll see. Thanks for your patience, especially all those who are willing to play the campaign in its current state.

[Arawn]

Alright. A working initial version is now out. I'd like to know what people think before I start polishing up and balancing. In particular, whether or not more castle levels are worth adding. And Happy Halloween!

[Jaume]

A working initial version is now out.

If you mean a new version (?), I didn't find it on the 1.8 server.

I'd like to know what people think before I start polishing up and balancing.

I'll have to play the campaign again to answer in detail, but the one thing that struck me the most is that it takes too long to meet opposition in most scenarios. If you have to spend your first 4+ turns only moving and recruiting, it means that either the maps are too big or the opponents too few or not scattered enough - IMHO.

In particular, whether or not more castle levels are worth adding.

As I remember it, I couldn't go past the second (?) castle level, where you're supposed to rescue a captured mage. There's a 'sighted' event that didn't work properly there, thus he neither initiated dialogue nor joined. I fixed that and completed the 'rescue' mission when I went back to the village, but then the next (3rd?) castle level didn't load (automatic defeat upon entering, IIRC.)

I think there are many interesting ideas in this campaign and I'd like to see it polished and finished. Keep up the good work!

[Arawn]

I'd like to know what people think before I start polishing up and balancing.

I'll have to play the campaign again to answer in detail, but the one thing that struck me the most is that it takes too long to meet opposition in most scenarios. If you have to spend your first 4+ turns only moving and recruiting, it means that either the maps are too big or the opponents too few or not scattered enough - IMHO.

In particular, whether or not more castle levels are worth adding.

As I remember it, I couldn't go past the second (?) castle level, where you're supposed to rescue a captured mage. There's a 'sighted' event that didn't work properly there, thus he neither initiated dialogue nor joined. I fixed that and completed the 'rescue' mission when I went back to the village, but then the next (3rd?) castle level didn't load (automatic defeat upon entering, IIRC.)

I think there are many interesting ideas in this campaign and I'd like to see it polished and finished. Keep up the good work!

Hmm.... I'll look into the version and opposition thing. I suppose a fairer question would be: Would you like this campaign once the second half (~9-19) is as polished as the first (1-8) half?
More importantly, what is this sighted error in the mage quest? Because that quest was supposed to be done; I need to fix that.

[Jaume]

More importantly, what is this sighted error in the mage quest? Because that quest was supposed to be done; I need to fix that.

Sighted events are known to be buggy sometimes. In my case (I use BfW 1.8.6) the event didn't fire at all when I met with that mage guy. I had to replace the 'sighted' with a 'moveto' to be able to complete the quest (./utils/quest_brother.cfg:78)

[Boldek]

so far, I liked the campaign alot, but I have one little complaint: in the second scenario, the objectives tell me to get zach in the town, but then it's a sighted event that triggers with anybody, and so I marched my leader up, only to have the entire battle won right there, and I missed the chance to recruit ranchers. I think you should change it to 'investigate the town' or something that leaves my leader near the keep.

[Jaume]

Quick feedback, playing BfW 1.8.6, default difficulty:

1. Leaving Dracden

• Because of the chokepoint at the bridge, Larron's units always get in the way and do most of the fighting for you. I think players should be given more leeway to have Zack's units join the fray if they choose to. Could be easily solved by placing Zack closer to the empty keep (so he can get there in 1 turn), or better, moving that keep closer to the river (while still within Zack's range at the beginning of turn 2.)
  
  Unlike the other possible henchmen you're offered upon completing scenarios 1 & 2, Brent (the heavy infantryman) lacks the loyal trait. Oversight?
  
  Suggested cosmetic changes to the map: use deep water instead of 'impassable' shallow water, to allow for better terrain readability and planning. And it'd make sense to have a real ford instead of shallow water at the northernmost passage, since a road leads there.

2. Raelnuir Besieged

• Same here: your ally will do most of the fighting for you if you trigger Sylvie too soon, the only way to avoid this is to move your slower units north for a few turns while avoiding the area near the gate. I'd move Zack's keep about 8 hexes north, and the Outlaw's keep further south. Or maybe add a second enemy leader near the bridge.

3. The Haunted Village

• The village itself (interactions, mission assignments, ...) is a cute idea, but there's too much unnecessary moving on that map. Or too few opposition: a few wandering critters (e.g., wolves - or undead, since the area is supposedly 'haunted') would make it less tedious.
  
  The fight with the Ghosts at the end is not really a fight. Trapped as they are in this narrow corridor, they can only be butchered one at a time.

(more to follow...)