Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

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Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » May 4th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Hi,

This thread is for the single player campaign Danse Macabre, which features a zombie and consists of 12 playable scenarios.
See also the Feedback thread.

Bug reports, balancing ideas and any other feedback are all welcome.
(as to bug reports, tell me what version of BfW and Danse Macabre you are playing on)

Current version: 1.0.5 (available on the 1.8 add-on server, playtested on BfW 1.8.5 & 1.8.6)
- Some of the English translation was corrected.
- Some hints were added.
- A unit was strengthened.
details:

changelog:

Notice:
- A few scenarios in the campaing may be very hard according to some Japanese players.
If you are not very used to playing campaigns, I recommend you to select 'Creeper (Normal)' level.

Thanks
Last edited by kamikaze on June 6th, 2011, 2:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby Wendek » May 4th, 2011, 4:23 pm

Hello there. I had wondered why there was no thread for that campaign. I've finished it a few days ago and wanted to give feedback, but... where to post ? :p The WURI website isn't very accessible to non-Japanese speakers/readers, either.

Bugs : I think it was bug-free, if I encountered bugs it was minor ones that I forgot since then. Played it on BfW 1.8.5.

Storyline : This is what I liked the most.
Spoiler:


Gameplay :
Spoiler:


Difficulty : I confirm, the intermediate level is probably impossible to do for any non-expert. And I'm far from being an expert, I'm actually quite mediocre. The huge maps, the rather low resistances of most zombies and stuff makes it a very hard challenge, and some missions are excruciatingly hard.
Spoiler:

Long story short : people who are seeking a tactical challenge should most probably try this on Intermediate, it should be enough for them.
Especially, all the missions with reinforcements are a huge pain to win because you're trapped and you're fighting against time : if said reinforcements reach your main army, you're dead meat. This makes already difficult scenarios even harder as you have to sacrifice bunch of stuff to slow them down.



Overall : I really liked the concept of the campaign and its characters, some gameplay parts are quite interesting as well. However, the objectives lack variety -Is there a single mission where the objective isn't "Kill everything on sight" except the dialogue-only ones ?- and some scenarios are much harder than what the stuff before was implying.
I'd mainly recommend it to people who enjoy tactical challenges. People like me who are more interested by storylines and who aren't exactly good at the game might get a headache.
But still, good job ! Always a pleasure to find more Undead campaigns. And this one is quite original in the way it handles said faction.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » May 5th, 2011, 4:24 am

Thank you for the immediate feedback!

Sorry for not providing a space for feedback earlier. It took a long time for me to learn the forum conventions and rules etc. I'm new to this forum. :)

I agree with most of what you have said. In fact, while building the campaign, I focused particularly on the storyline and making new units. I'm glad to hear that you liked them.

Meanwhile I must admit the gameplay (especially the objectives) lacks variety. Hmm... I can't think of a good idea now, but I may be able to make improvements in a later version.
Spoiler:

As to the difficulty, I think many players will empathize with you. I should have added a note of caution to the campaign description (for instance, "I recommend you to try the Normal level first." or something). I think the normal level would be more suitable for you and most other players.
Anyway, I have realised this campaign needs much more balancing. After getting more feedback, I'll try to adjust the difficulty.

I really appreciate your helpful and detailed feedback.
Thank you very much!
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » May 25th, 2011, 11:57 pm

A couple of corrections in mission 3

"Oops! We must retreat and attempt comeback!" to "Oops! We must retreat and regroup!"

"Well done! Leave cowards alone! Kill dwarves and orcs!" to "Well done! Leave the cowards alone! Kill the dwarves and orcs!"


Also, in the scenario 2 map tiles 5,6 6,6 and 7,6 are normal mountain tiles, but look like they should be impassable mountains. You can't move units beyond those points anyway, so it's just aesthetic.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » May 26th, 2011, 2:57 pm

Scenario 4:

"Macabre set his eyes on the Humans who had agained an upper hand in the last war" to "Macabre set his eyes on the Humans who had gained an upper hand in the last war"

"he began to advance his army to it in silence" to "he began to advance his army in silence."

"We got much dead flesh as a result of the recent war." to "We have much dead flesh as a result of the recent war."

"and guarantee rear safety." to "and protect the rear."
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » May 26th, 2011, 3:08 pm

Thank you!

normal mountain tiles in S2:
Oh, that's true. This map was created by another creator, so I'll ask him about them.
If there is no special reason, I'll fix them.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » May 28th, 2011, 9:54 pm

Here's a patch for scenario 7,

Transform the Great Mage into Zombie" to "Transform the Great Mage into a Zombie"

"Sir! Undead have come here!!" to "Sir! Undead have arrived"

"How terrible... We must fight! Don't let them invade any more!" to "How terrible... Don't let them advance any further!"

Also, I added a note to the objectives, as requested in the feedback thread:

note=_ "The Great Mage must be killed by a unit with the plague ability!" + "
"+{NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER_NOTE_40}
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » June 6th, 2011, 2:31 pm

v1.0.5 is now available on 1.8 add-ons server. :)
Fore more info, see my first posting on this thread.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » June 6th, 2011, 10:41 pm

A bit more feedback, but contains possible spoilers, so here instead of the feedback thread.

In the objectives for Night Of The Living dead, "anyway" should be "any way".

Gingly seems to be there "just because". He has no lines, he's not important to the story in any way, and that seems a shame for a character unit. Perhaps make ghosts only recruitable while he's alive, like the Saurians on SOTBE, or give him a few lines here or there. Just something to make him, well, a character.

On replaying the campaign a few times, I think there are balance issues between return of the living dead and vengeance is mine. Until that point the difficulty is about the same as other campaigns, then vengeance is mine takes it up to a whole new level without any warning.

On the first playthrough it as fun precisely because it was so hard, but on subsequent playthroughs it's just frustrating. The only way I can beat this scenario without losing character units, or save-loading is to send walking corpses to the first doorway, and leave my main force waiting for the reinforcements, defeat all four waves, and then advance on Philosophy, which is the opposite of the way the scenario should probably be played. I'm not the best player in the world, but that's why I'm playing on normal.

Losing levelled units is fine, but at this point, most of your levelled units are also character units. You only have to keep Merrin and Boreas alive, but losing Spelk, Pech, Neckfrill, or Gingly is restart-the-scenario bad.

I've tried changing various things, and I have three suggestions that seemed to work best, but you can probably come up with something better.

The obvious one - more gold at the start of Vengeance is Mine would allow you to recruit enough walking corpses, or other cannon fodder to hold back the first reinforcements a few turns and allow you to attack bit more conservatively. Doing this though, changes the feel of the scenario, and takes away the urgency somewhat.

Delaying the first wave until a few turns later achieves the same thing, as does making them arrive at dusk so they can be dispatched at night, but this is a fine line...a better player than me might find the reinforcements never reach their main force and again, removes the urgency.

Another approach, I found increasing return of the living dead to 36 turns and giving an additional 240 gold to the Orc leader allowed me to get a few Skeleons, and Ghouls levelled, or close to levelling, which in turn made Vengeance is Mine challenging, but not frustratingly so.

Possibly consider a scenario in the middle - a march through the woods to the temple or something - for XP mining would work.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » June 7th, 2011, 10:35 pm

Hi, averyimaginativename.

In the objectives for Night Of The Living dead, "anyway" should be "any way".
Thanks. I've fixed it.

As to Gingly:
That's so true. And both of your suggestions sound nice. OK, I will do something about this before publishing v1.0.6.

As to the balance issues:
Thank you for considering this difficult problem!

For now, I feel inclined to adopt either your first suggestion or third one, or both of them.

I think there are, and should be many ways to beat this scenario. Your approach (defeating all the reinforcements first) is no doubt one of the safest way, but it may also be frustrating, as you said.

So, when I play this scenario, I usually divide my units into two groups to deal with both enemy's main force and reinforcements simultaneously. To do that, it is necessary to have more leveled units (including some Lv3 loyals) and recruit more sacrificed units (I recommend ghouls and skeletons). Your first and third suggestions will obviously make them easier by giving players more gold & XP.

By the way, would you tell me how much start gold and how many leveled units (especially Lv3 ones) you usually have at the start of this scenario?
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » June 8th, 2011, 12:12 am

I've only got one save, but it's fairly typical.

I have 359 gold. All character units are level 3, except Macbre and Gingly both level 2.

1 nightgaunt, 1 shadow, 1 brain eater, 3 running corpses, and a chocobone. If I'm lucky, I sometimes manage to get 1 ghoul/skeleton/skeleton archer levelled too. Two bone shooters and a necrophage would make all the difference, but I've never managed that many in the short time you have them.

if I'd given some of the xp the character units took to some other units instead, it would be easier - but I can only know that with hindsight.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby kamikaze » June 8th, 2011, 3:37 pm

Thank you for your response.

I think you have enough gold to recruit as many sacrificed units as you need. But,
averyimaginativename wrote:Two bone shooters and a necrophage would make all the difference ... if I'd given some of the xp the character units took to some other units instead, it would be easier - but I can only know that with hindsight.

Exactly. OK, I'll put a high priority on your third suggestion.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby klein_atuin » August 22nd, 2011, 6:04 pm

Hi there. this is feedback too but cause of dealing with one problem i rather put it here.

first of all: nice campaign idea.

tried an earlier version a while ago and got stuck because its pretty hard without "clairvoyance". Now i've played 1.05 on 1.80 (medium) and found it turned upside down. mostly because of the way, You implemented this idea, i guess:
averyimaginativename wrote:Possibly consider a scenario in the middle - a march through the woods to the temple or something - for XP mining would work.

A Scenario without time limit You can beat with positive earnings until the end is never a good idea. You sure don't want players to spend hours on useless turnes, locking an enemy leader in his keep, letting him recruit a unit or two per turn for exp and meanwhile earn thousands of gold for the great epic battle to come.
But that's exactly what happens now (vengeance) and from there on the campaign is rather a bore.
Especially, since the last real Scenario (the last one i'd rather call an epilogue) is of the same kind. Just leave some strong units on the beach, take your time and killing that old lich is a joke.

Asked for me, the other screw to balance it would have done better: less bad little surprises and less highlevel enemies - especially in
day of the dead - would give you a chance to win without hundreds of "mining" turnes but keep it challenging.

I understand You like Your extraordinary corpses (so do i, especially Boreas) and needed some strong Opponents. But by now, i think the result is rather "overdosed".

hope You still find the comment helpfull although i had to spit into the wine (that a fitting phrase?)
looking forward to further versions

greetz
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby averyimaginativename » August 22nd, 2011, 6:30 pm

Vengeance has always been like that.

My suggesting was made after the release of 1.0.5, and it was to either make the previous scenario harder or to add an extra one between the two, not to remove the time limit from Vengeance (it never had one!). I stand by that suggestion.
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Re: Undead Campaign: Danse Macabre

Postby klein_atuin » August 22nd, 2011, 8:18 pm

Well, if You made the suggestion to add an exp-mining scenario _after_ the Vengeance scenario already offered unlimited exp - i sure don't need to understand why. Still the critical point wasn't having any 'mining' scenario but "the way" it is implemented now.

As far as i remember - but i have no old savings - Vengeance has not always been like that: i don't remember having a chance to get through with still earning gold. Maybe i'm wrong about that and only recruited too much or something.

None of that matters in any way: having a scenario like Vengeance is by now - no matter if it always was like that or not - remains a bad idea. what kind of game is it, to click away hundreds of turns without anything new happening?
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