Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply

Would you like enemy/ally leaders and strong units to obtain some suitable generated titles?

Yes
8
89%
No
1
11%
 
Total votes: 9

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 375
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 24th, 2018, 11:54 am

lhaire wrote:3. My favourite legacy by far is Legacy of the Free (extremely powerful with champion bowman, elvish assassins, and dwarf technocrats). My least favourite legacies are Legacy of Titans and Legacy of Phoenix. For Legacy of Titans, I think either bigger damage bonuses or better regeneration would be nice - otherwise, I (personally) would unlikely even bother taking the advancements. For Legacy of Phoenix to be more useful, I would suggest taking away one of the resistance advancements (LoP3) and replace it with an incinerate weapon special.
I assume you did not play on hard? Because resistances are really, really important there, otherwise you will lose units occasionally. Phoenix and Titans are very useful on units that severely lack either magical or physical resistances respectively. E.g., Titans on the Duellist lines is incredibly powerful (low phys resistances and high attack counts to make use of the bonus damage) -> I recently compared it and in my opinion on that unit line it's the strongest legacy! Phoenix just doesn't feel as rewarding as other legacies, because you get no offensive bonus and it's a lot of points for simple resistance stats.

Also about the gems: I never have the problem that I don't have enough low gems, I transmute them by the hundreds. My chokepoints are always Emeralds and Black Pearls. (at least when you have a stock built up, the early drops are purely RNG and can heavily differ between runs -> there will always be something missing early on and too much of something else)

lhaire
Posts: 14
Joined: April 21st, 2014, 8:29 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhaire » February 25th, 2018, 4:21 am

Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 11:54 am
lhaire wrote:3. My favourite legacy by far is Legacy of the Free (extremely powerful with champion bowman, elvish assassins, and dwarf technocrats). My least favourite legacies are Legacy of Titans and Legacy of Phoenix. For Legacy of Titans, I think either bigger damage bonuses or better regeneration would be nice - otherwise, I (personally) would unlikely even bother taking the advancements. For Legacy of Phoenix to be more useful, I would suggest taking away one of the resistance advancements (LoP3) and replace it with an incinerate weapon special.
I assume you did not play on hard? Because resistances are really, really important there, otherwise you will lose units occasionally. Phoenix and Titans are very useful on units that severely lack either magical or physical resistances respectively. E.g., Titans on the Duellist lines is incredibly powerful (low phys resistances and high attack counts to make use of the bonus damage) -> I recently compared it and in my opinion on that unit line it's the strongest legacy! Phoenix just doesn't feel as rewarding as other legacies, because you get no offensive bonus and it's a lot of points for simple resistance stats.
I did indeed play on hard level. Obviously we have a different tactics as I did just fine with using very few characters with these 2 legacies. I relied primarily on characters with other legacies. Nevertheless, I do find your feedback interesting, so maybe I'll give these legacies another chance next time around.
Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 11:54 am
Also about the gems: I never have the problem that I don't have enough low gems, I transmute them by the hundreds. My chokepoints are always Emeralds and Black Pearls. (at least when you have a stock built up, the early drops are purely RNG and can heavily differ between runs -> there will always be something missing early on and too much of something else)
I'm not saying that I had a problem with lower gems. I'm simply saying that I had excess valuable gems (sapphires) that I couldn't use. I was using a lot of rubies and emeralds (due to the armours I like to use), so it would have been nice to "trade" some of my excess sapphires for rubies or emeralds.

lhaire
Posts: 14
Joined: April 21st, 2014, 8:29 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhaire » February 25th, 2018, 4:31 am

dabber wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 8:28 pm
lhaire wrote:3. My favourite legacy by far is Legacy of the Free (extremely powerful with champion bowman, elvish assassins, and dwarf technocrats). My least favourite legacies are Legacy of Titans and Legacy of Phoenix. For Legacy of Titans, I think either bigger damage bonuses or better regeneration would be nice - otherwise, I (personally) would unlikely even bother taking the advancements. For Legacy of Phoenix to be more useful, I would suggest taking away one of the resistance advancements (LoP3) and replace it with an incinerate weapon special.
I agree that Legacy of the Free is great, although my thinking is clearly different than yours. I want it on extremely fast units and/or units that are slightly better at melee, because the bonus ranged damage balances out their melee power.
I like Phoenix primarily for the resistances. From the Ashes is a little weak, but I think any bonus resistance is highly valuable.
I find incinerate to be mostly insignificant - most enemies die before it hits them, or its damage is relatively too small for them to care. Yes, sometimes it is great.
I like incinerate in certain circumstances. For example, a really fast gryphon rider with both slow and incinerate can inflict a lot of damage using hit and run on a slow enemy from a great distance away. By the time the rest of your units reach that enemy it is a lot easier to kill.

dabber
Posts: 323
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber » February 26th, 2018, 1:09 am

Whiskeyjack, I'm actually surprised you like Titans on a Champion (I assume that is what you mean by Duellist line). They just don't get hit by physical attacks so I don't really care about their resistance. Mine literally has effective 90% defense (80% plus Struggle), and with Suck and Mockery, heals back the few physical hits without problem. His problem is the demon spell attacks, but good equipment plus Careful, Suck and Mockery means it takes multiple Demons even for that to be a threat.

Bug note: Anyone had a Champion's crossbow attacks screw up? If I give him two items with +1 attack each, he ends up with 1 crossbow attack instead of 4. I think that's right. (Yes, this is a terrible bug report. If any WML experts want to look at it, I'll find a save file to attach. I tried, but I couldn't find a bug).

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 375
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 26th, 2018, 10:51 am

@lhaire:
I did not want to imply that those legacies are necessary to make it through hard, I just wanted to say that their power is especially strong there, albeit somewhat obscured (because passive resistances are never that noticable). I think with the right items you can make a unit work regardless of legacies.

@dabber:
Well, mine is set up very differently, he only has 60% on flat, therefore berserking or lucky demons could severely hurt him otherwise.

I run him with the Liquid Hatred amulet + Marrowrend for a cool wrath combo (see spoiler). Note that it's a pretty new unit with "only" 14 advancements.

I think the strongest part of Titans is that you get 8% phys res, 3 melee damage and regeneration with just 2 advancements. The others are nice, but those two are very experience efficient. Take phoenix for example: every point more you have to take to get the full effect means you lose a point in move speed/damage on your main attack/utility. That is another reason why Legacy of Light is actually extremely powerful (in inferno): it takes only a few skill points to permanently reduce all demon damage by (multiplicative) 40% and increase yours by 40%.
Spoiler:
While I'm already posting units: This is the ultimate abuse I found until now:
Ancient Lich:
Edit: actually, as you can see, on my champion the two +1 attacks work fine (I did not take the extra AMLA one).

lhaire
Posts: 14
Joined: April 21st, 2014, 8:29 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhaire » February 27th, 2018, 11:57 pm

@Whiskeyjack - you make some interesting points about these legacies. I would have to agree that with the right items, you can make any legacy work well. I guess we all have our favourites :-).

For me, by the end of the campaign, my 3 most powerful characters were Champion Bowman, Duelist Wizard, and Technocrat - all with Legacy of the Free. All had maximum moves, so I could kill (or at the very least heavily damage/disable) the most powerful enemies from very far away. The parry ability that you get for ranged weapons with this legacy is unbelievable - it's almost guaranteed to kill virtually every enemy except those with extremely high hit points. In combination with skirmisher, I could take out the most powerful enemies and then retreat again while the rest of my party recovers. By the time the rest of my party advances forward, I can then take out the remaining enemies.

dabber
Posts: 323
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber » February 28th, 2018, 9:01 pm

For me, the most dangerous enemies (chapters 7,8,9) are the ones with cold attacks. I wouldn't want to engage them with a ranged attack because I would get slowed and thus be much less able to retreat. That is who my Champion with Legacy of the Free (and move 14, and wrath, and berserk 5, etc) would run out to slaughter, then retreat. My other favorite hit-and-run has been a Dragon Rider who is even more able to flee because he can cross terrain that slows or blocks most enemies. I've also used a Lunatic Knight, but even after I editted the Lunatic Knight file to give him better AMLAs, he was never as dominant.
The job of my Duelist is almost entirely Explosive. He hangs out next to the Duke and Celestial Messenger (with Legacy of Kings) in order to fire off a truly massive nuke at big groups of enemies, killing several and damaging a dozen.

lhaire
Posts: 14
Joined: April 21st, 2014, 8:29 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhaire » March 1st, 2018, 8:04 pm

Agreed - you have to be careful on how to attack cold enemies. For enemies with cold ranged attacks, I use a combination of my 3 LoTF characters (if one alone doesn't do it). I can use my Duelist mage to do massive group damage (by attacking another enemy and thus avoiding the cold enemy). I can use my champion Bowman to take them out since the enemy can't attack back (he can also inflict high damage with many attacks using the right items). And lastly, I can also use my Technocrat to finish them off since he inflicts huge damage in one shot (the only downside is if he happens to miss, but he usually hits as he has marksman).

Other long range useful characters for me are Lunatic Knight and Gryphon Rider (for the same reason you like your Dragon Rider). The nice thing about Lunatic Knight and Gryphon Rider is that you get hit and run without needing LoTF.

Sinistra
Posts: 9
Joined: March 5th, 2018, 5:20 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Sinistra » March 5th, 2018, 11:18 pm

Hello, I would like to thank and congratulate you Dugi for your amazing works (LOTI of course which I love but also the smaller campaigns were very enjoyable). I have been reading the forums and this thread for a while but never felt the need to make an account until very recently. Not gonna list the few features I disagree with (it's bound to happen for any work) because they are fairly minor compared to the enjoyement side and I know you wouldn't want to change these (I read the thread for many pages and other people's feedback).

Anyway I decided I wanted to try the multiplayer maps (since we cant play the campaign as multiplayer xD that would be crazy as Efraim/Lethalia coop, I know it will never happen). So are there any people who wanna form a regular or semi regular (at your convenience) play group for these maps ? And why not sharing some info on LOTI as well (could be interesting to hear about tactics and chars). Especially the arena map I feel is what different versions of colosseum tried but never managed to get straight, and it requires actual planning, strategy and teamwork (which also makes it impossible for a pick up party)

n_mouli
Posts: 19
Joined: November 24th, 2017, 3:27 pm

Game crash: Lotl2 - Apologies

Post by n_mouli » March 8th, 2018, 5:06 pm

I am finding that the game crashes on loading the scenario Apologies with an error that states 'game error: creating unit with empty type field'.
Can you please check on this?
Attaching the save file for reference.
Thanks,
Chandramouli
Attachments
LotI2-Apologies.gz
(144.29 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

congdm
Posts: 2
Joined: February 28th, 2015, 2:26 pm

Re: Game crash: Lotl2 - Apologies

Post by congdm » March 8th, 2018, 11:00 pm

n_mouli wrote:
March 8th, 2018, 5:06 pm
I am finding that the game crashes on loading the scenario Apologies with an error that states 'game error: creating unit with empty type field'.
Can you please check on this?
Attaching the save file for reference.
Thanks,
Chandramouli
I also encountered thishat error too. @Dugi
I think the bug happen when the macro {ADVANCE_UNIT id=Efraim Efraim_god} run, because the scenario continued for a bit if I commented that line. However, I don't know how to debug WML further, could you tell me how to debug WML step by step or at least have it displays a detailed log?

edited: forgot to say it was 1.13.10, 1.12 worked fine

n_mouli
Posts: 19
Joined: November 24th, 2017, 3:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by n_mouli » March 9th, 2018, 2:49 am

congdm wrote:
March 8th, 2018, 11:00 pm
I also encountered thishat error too. @Dugi
I think the bug happen when the macro {ADVANCE_UNIT id=Efraim Efraim_god} run, because the scenario continued for a bit if I commented that line. However, I don't know how to debug WML further, could you tell me how to debug WML step by step or at least have it displays a detailed log?

edited: forgot to say it was 1.13.10, 1.12 worked fine
Looks like 15_Apologies.cfg doesn't have the type definition for Efraim_god. That may be the cause.

User avatar
matsjoyce
Posts: 233
Joined: May 8th, 2011, 2:10 pm
Location: UK

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce » March 9th, 2018, 9:10 am

@n_mouli + @congdm I've tracked down the cause (see https://github.com/Dugy/Legend_of_the_I ... /issues/78). In short, if you move

Code: Select all

{GLOBAL_EVENTS}
from the bottom of the file to just after the

Code: Select all

{TWO_SUNS_DEFAULT_SCHEDULE}
the bug will be fixed, and hopefully won't break anything else. This change will be applied to the repo, once @Dugi gives me the go ahead.

n_mouli
Posts: 19
Joined: November 24th, 2017, 3:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by n_mouli » March 9th, 2018, 11:28 am

matsjoyce wrote:
March 9th, 2018, 9:10 am
@n_mouli + @congdm I've tracked down the cause (see https://github.com/Dugy/Legend_of_the_I ... /issues/78). In short, if you move

Code: Select all

{GLOBAL_EVENTS}
from the bottom of the file to just after the

Code: Select all

{TWO_SUNS_DEFAULT_SCHEDULE}
the bug will be fixed, and hopefully won't break anything else. This change will be applied to the repo, once @Dugi gives me the go ahead.
Thanks @matsjoyce, with the fix am able to proceed further into the scenario.

User avatar
Dugi
Posts: 4810
Joined: July 22nd, 2010, 10:29 am
Location: Carpathian Mountains
Contact:

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi » March 9th, 2018, 9:33 pm

@dabber
I have accepted the code and it will be used in the next version. LotI is now on github, you may use it to modify the code directly.

Regarding Champion's crossbow, are you sure it's not a different unit, using a thunderstick or a similar weapon? Because such weapons can't be upgraded by regular +1 attack effects because that would be overpowered. Only AMLA and item set effects affect it.

@lhaire
1. No problem.
2. Doing that would very complicated and thus bug-prone. There are many things I could do but I don't because there is no elegant solution and they are not crucial.
4. It is a known bug and I can't find what is causing it, there is a piece of code that should remove it.
5. Maybe I could add a craft recipe that requires many sapphires? Any suggestions what could it do?
6. He was in chapter 3. He isn't changed in chapter 10.
7. Are you sure there is no way to get Dark Adepts? I tried to make it possible to obtain any custom unit that isn't designed to be enemy-only.

@Sinistra
Thanks ^_^

Turning the campaign into a co-op multiplayer would require editing every single scenario and that's too much work (also rendering all save files incompatible and introducing a load of bugs). Maybe you would enjoy Divinity: Original Sin,a turn-based role-playing game that is made for two player co-op (although single player works well). You have only two leaders and two side-kicks and possibly some summoned creatures, no proper recruitment, but otherwise it's very much what you want.

The Gladiators scenario can be set to be easier. Is the easiest difficulty still too hard for a pick-up party?

@n_mouli
It has been fixed by matsjoyce on github. Use the version from there to fix it. Big thanks to this man's selfless endeavour.

Post Reply