Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these crafting recipes you are using or planning to use? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

The End of All that Is
4
9%
Gloombringer
1
2%
Soul Eclipse
3
7%
Guerilla
5
11%
Scaryface
6
13%
Thundering Revenge
2
4%
Marie Byrd
3
7%
Marrowrend
11
24%
Deathblade Inheritance
0
No votes
Soul Render
10
22%
 
Total votes: 45

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arobinson
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by arobinson » June 15th, 2016, 5:25 pm

Dugi wrote:Regarding the AI problem:
I have found an error in the code that in some scenarios where you had only Lethalia, the AI was set badly and would often refuse to attack. Can you confirm or reject if it is only the case for scenarios with only Lethalia and no Efraim?

Chapter 4 was rated as being currently quite lame and specific ideas about improvement were discussed. You can look back at it and say what you think about it. Also, the above mentioned bug might concern only chapter 4.

Your feedback seems to be a nail finishing the coffin of the current AoE penalty levels. I will reduce them, if you have some specific suggestions, go on.

The scenarios with just Lethalia are worse. BTW I said Krux earlier and meant Efraim. The higher powered enemies will attack both heroes, but not weaker enemies. That is how they can wear down the heroes, but with life steal and murderlust they can actually heal the unit as well.

For the area attack, here are some ideas:
  • Only reduce damage for the rest of the current turn (back to 100% the next turn)
  • Reduce the unit's defense % for one turn instead of reducing the damage (-50% defense on all terrains) for example
  • Same as above, but only lower the defense during the attack
  • Make the AOE attacks have a cooldown (can only be used once every 2-5 turns for example)
My preference would be the last one, just make it so you can only use it ever so often. That also encourages you to learn multiple AOE attacks so that you can cast them more often, forcing you to diversify the unit more which IMO would make it more fun instead of a all-in-one skill unit.
Running Wesnoth 1.12.4 on Mac OSX 10.10
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ForestDragon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ForestDragon » June 15th, 2016, 6:16 pm

also voting for last part
My active add-ons: [WIP] Ogres Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic

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matsjoyce
Posts: 233
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Location: UK

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by matsjoyce » June 15th, 2016, 6:18 pm

Yup, last one, but don't make the cooldown too long pls. And if you do this, can you leave / make un-AoE versions of things like Leth's FF?

ahmannar
Posts: 166
Joined: August 26th, 2012, 11:09 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ahmannar » June 15th, 2016, 6:43 pm

arobinson has made pretty good points on why his last option is the best one, i also agree with it.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi » June 15th, 2016, 6:47 pm

The cooldown option was discussed. The exhaustion option was chosen after a lot of pondering. I am quite sure that most of you are biased against it now because it is a pain and you've been experiencing that very recently.

The cooldown option would lead to trying hard to collect enough AoE attacks with characters to rotate them. You might get a Duelist Wizard with some dragon legacy, give him book of fireballs and have 3 AoE attacks you would cycle (so you might quite easily sustain it, a cooldown of more than 3 turns would be probably too long). Alternatively, you might play with the Koschei's journal in order to get a lot of AoE attacks with a unit. You'd probably end up with somewhat less damage (as you'd have to split your AMLA between the attacks), but you'd be able to finish off many enemies per turns, so that the exp gain would able to compensate it.

The cooldown might be common for all AoE, but if that would unconditionally force you to use regular attacks most of the time. Once the cooldown runs out, the unit would get a free mega attack.

Damage penalty ending very fast would not prevent you from blasting enemy armies with a single unit as long as you can shield it. Temporary defence reduction would be lethal and of little consequence if you could shield your units. It's an attack, the penalty should affect attacking, not defending or survivability.

That's why I am think that the initial choice of exhaustion was the best. But as you say, some implementation details have to be changed. The damage penalty may be reduced, it may depend on the total damage of the attack (single hit damage * number of attacks * constant depending on the type of AoE).

AoE/non-AoE versions of Lethalia's faerie fire and some other attacks suffering from similar problems are already uploaded, but it does not affect units retrospectively.

Delicius169
Posts: 178
Joined: February 16th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Delicius169 » June 15th, 2016, 7:43 pm

Am I the only one who thinks Aoe penalty is fine as it is? I dont see it as a big problem, I have 2 duelist mage with fireballs, one Eldery mage with fireblast and one Dwarf technocrat. They are able to attack for about 3 rounds with their explosive attack in a way, it is usefull. (They are always supported with Duke)
I always thought about whirlwind attack as OP, so I m glad that there is penalty for using it.

And please no cooldown for cleave, pierce...

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shadow12
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by shadow12 » June 15th, 2016, 8:10 pm

nuorc wrote:
shadow12 wrote:This is how I killed Argan...
Thanks for sharing. :)

Doesn't really sound like fun. I don't think I had access to draining. As I'm constantly rummaging in the .po (text) file while playing LotI anyway, I got his story that way...
:D Ya, it was not the most exciting way to defeat someone, but the only way I knew how.

I have another question, what does it signify when someone has an orange tint and has blue flame below her name, like how Lethalia looks here?
image.jpg
Sometimes life unexpectedly throws a Troll or a nasty Queen Naga in your path.

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc » June 15th, 2016, 8:56 pm

arobinson wrote:I'm really tired of leveling elves and most of the elves IMO are the worst for fun.
I actually LOVE breeding me some real bad Elvish Gryphs.
Spoiler:
Also, for a change, I gave some loyal Elvish Overlord some love and good gear and plenty of AMLAs, and he's fun and in the core of my units in Inferno.

Other than that, I don't care about any other Elvish units. But someone here posted something with a Nightprowler, so I don't know...

shadow12 wrote:what does it signify when someone has an orange tint and has blue flame below her name
I think I've seen tints like that in transitory states and/or when incinerated; did Leth get a frost bite?
I have a cunning plan.

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shadow12
Posts: 98
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by shadow12 » June 16th, 2016, 8:14 pm

nuorc wrote:I think I've seen tints like that in transitory states and/or when incinerated; did Leth get a frost bite?
You must be right, it is happening to other units in the next scenario when they get hit by one of the Lethalia clones. They have the ability to incinerate so it must be that. I wonder what weapon causes it? I want one! Thanks for your help!
Sometimes life unexpectedly throws a Troll or a nasty Queen Naga in your path.

Saya_no_Neko
Posts: 1
Joined: June 15th, 2016, 12:54 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Saya_no_Neko » June 16th, 2016, 9:48 pm

Hello,

First I would like to thank you for this awesome campaign, I came back playing Wesnoth (didn't play since 2012) and playing this campaign feels reaally fun with all the new mechanics :D ! I'm currently at Chapter 5 :) .
I really like the fact that I had to recruit new units in some chapters, making things refreshing ^_^ .

Anyway, I have a question:
Is their a limit when you're taking the same upgrade when you level up a max out unit? (Like increasing blade damage)

Oh, I have also a personal remark. I found the Meteor spell too powerful (the one you get with soul eater), dealing 100+ damage in a really large AOE, making some scenario really easy (for instance in Chapter 5 - The Real Enemy, the walkthrough says that ennemies will be very strong, but i just one shoted them with Meteor as Lethalia). I don't feel the exhaustion too much, as it doesn't appear too stack up when used successively (only a minus 14 on +100dmg). It is only me?

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi » June 16th, 2016, 10:32 pm

nuorc wrote:I have another question, what does it signify when someone has an orange tint and has blue flame below her name, like how Lethalia looks here?
I have no idea why the flames are blue, they should be red if the unit is incinerated.
Saya_no_Neko wrote:First I would like to thank you for this awesome campaign
I like that you like it.
Saya_no_Neko wrote:I really like the fact that I had to recruit new units in some chapters, making things refreshing ^_^ .
Am I the only one who agrees with this guy?
Saya_no_Neko wrote:Is their a limit when you're taking the same upgrade when you level up a max out unit? (Like increasing blade damage)
Yes, usually 5 or 10 after that all the non-generic upgrades are taken/unlocked.
Saya_no_Neko wrote:Oh, I have also a personal remark. I found the Meteor spell too powerful
It's one time-only in most scenarios, so it can be potent. But maybe I could reduce its damage.

Bobby_de_Ceise
Posts: 3
Joined: May 23rd, 2016, 11:30 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Bobby_de_Ceise » June 17th, 2016, 4:23 am

i just finish the campaign for the first time finally ! I especially enjoyed Chapter 5 and 9 for the roaming, and chapter 7 with the big maps (especially the one where we have to deal with blizzards and night apparitions) and the first part of chapter 10 where you have to play very carefully. Also, the story is interesting and all the references to other campaign makes the whole a great campaign. The riddle to release the dukelike allies in the battle against the dragons was a nice implementation and it would be fun to see more of those, imo. It was also a lot of fun to read all the complicated plots and the occasional joke.

Here's a few minor errors i noted :
- AMLA of the orcish warmonger, "sword2-horrid" 's description is : "attack faster with sword", should read "attack in a scary way"
- Krux's martyrdom doesn't seem to work
- Krux_later doesn't have the spectral blade attack
- when goblin pillager levels up, you get the choice between ravager and ravager... same thing with orcish slayer.
- I'm not sure if it was intended but, in chapter IX in the "Land_of_Misery", the keeps on the right side are occupied by portals instead of leaders and the map was really easy.
- the demons in jungle hell would not pass through the unwalkable forest unless in range to attack a unit, is that an AI issue ?

Here's some suggestions :
- in chapter VII, make the blizzards shorter but make them occur more often, to make it a little more tricky to explore
- make the blood rain animation at the beginning of the turn as fast as the regeneration animation. (in the map "where_the hatred_grows" it could take a minute or two just to look at the plants take blood rain damage)
- in chapter VIII, in jungle hell, have more demons spawn from within the impassable jungle areas. Also, replace the forest for grassland where the player cannot see to let the demons travel faster.
- i think the Snow Hunter's blizzard should have a "slow" effect at some point. If not, it feel pretty much as a waste of advancements.
arobinson wrote:as starting from scratch with new units is not all that fun
Saya_no_Neko wrote:I really like the fact that I had to recruit new units in some chapters, making things refreshing
i, for one, totally agree with Saya. The gladiator part in chapter 8 as well as the beginning of chapter 10 and chapter 3 with the young elves were some of my favorite parts.
Dugi wrote:The exhaustion option was chosen after a lot of pondering. I am quite sure that most of you are biased against it now because it is a pain and you've been experiencing that very recently.
About the AoE exhaustion, i don't really mind but the result for me was that i would almost never use them so my unit could deal more damage in the enemy's turn than the AoE would have done AND get the exp. for it.

And again, thanks for the amazing add-on, the best campaign, imo.

Samson
Posts: 3
Joined: June 12th, 2016, 2:26 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Samson » June 18th, 2016, 12:01 pm

Dugi wrote:Sorry for my absence, I haven't noticed the forums were back for quite long.

@Samson
The +10 health advancement does add 10 health, but it looks like 7 because all other advancement already add 3.

Your concerns about chapter 4 are being considered, however I do not have much time right now. It will be better soon.

Regarding the bad dialogues: some parts were rewritten, but I am no champion at nice wording. Furthermore, English is not my first language. It wasn't even my second language until I wrote this add-on and played online. Maybe the later parts are better, I am learning over time, but I can't find what to improve in the existing dialogues. In the first parts, the protagonists were emotionless undead led by iron rationality rather than people.

The portraits are the best I could get. I have tried to stitch parts of existing portraits together in the Kill the King campaign, you can have a look at that. I've tried some 3D graphics in the Affably Evil campaign, you can have a look at that. But neither of them looks better than this.
Ahh ok, I think even with the lvl up it gives 2 so only adds up to 9, but that's close enough.

I get the bit about 4, obviously it needs a big rework.
I think my main problem really is just how it feels like the main Heroes advancements are lacklustre compared with say an Elvish Juggernaut, which doesn't seem right, I give them similar items and when Jugg gets to AMLA he's doing insane amounts of damage before his first AMLA, Efraim is struggling to kill anything without help, with Dragon Claw, and Jugg has Rhaerants. This is the end of Chapter 1, doing a new playthrough currently. Seems heavily unbalanced against the Heroes they just happen to be too hard to kill, would be nice to have them more deadly maybe and more vulnerable.

Totally get the language then, you've done a brilliant job for it not being your first language, I'd be happy to help with some re-writing if you'd like, I'm no genius either but I sometimes get inspired and write good things, no promises but I'd be happy to help if you can send me a copy of all the script I could go through and see if I can make some improvements corrections etc. for you. Obviously I'd have to be asking you constant questions as to how you want them to come across etc. so if you want and think it'd be helpful.

Wouldn't know how the Char Portraits work, again I'd offer to help because I could draw some but have no knowledge of any kind of software drawing so not sure how that would work, I can draw, just not on a computer. Like I said as it is it's fine, I purely say this stuff because I think it should be the main Wesnoth Campaign it just needs bit of tidying up. That would also change the way wesnoth works as a whole but I think this has something that's missing from the main campaigns so I don't actually bother with them anymore.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi » June 18th, 2016, 8:13 pm

@Bobby_de_Ceise
I like that you like my campaign.

I have fixed the bugs you've mentioned unless I had some questions and remarks for some:
Krux' martyrdom - nearby allies aren't getting wrath?
option between two identical units - this typically happens when debug mode is used, there's no way to fix on version before some later 1.13
Land of Misery - looking at the code, it appears to be intentional, maybe I could make that scenario harder
their ability to walk through the unwalkable forest - intentional
blizzards - most people aren't very fond of them
blood rain - there was actually a bug, it should not affect enemies, but the code was wrong, fixed it
Snow Hunter's blizzard - I think that with slowing, it would be too strong, the amount of advancements to get it does not require much exp as he's a level 2 unit, correct me if I am wrong
The rest was fixed.

@Samson
I think that having your leader vulnerable would be rather unpleasant, as (s)he would die easily and break the scenario. It's outbalanced by the lower offensive abilities.

Look at the campaign's files, the texts are in folders scenarios1, scenarios2, etc, it's written in code, but it shouldn't be hard to find and edit. You can just edit it and send the edited files back to me, I can check the differences and merge them using software tools. If you have an idea what to rewrite, just change it.

If you can draw stuff, you're welcome to contribute. I have experience with computer drawing, I can clean, colourise and refine sketches. My problem is that I am limited by my rather limited basic drawing abilities. If you can draw something and send me scans, I can make something out of it. Many portraits were done by taking hand-drawn stuff and finishing it using the computer.

Samson
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Joined: June 12th, 2016, 2:26 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Samson » June 18th, 2016, 8:29 pm

I will see what I can do!

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