Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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Paulomat4
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Paulomat4 »

The error began on said scenario. It always happens directly after the start and doesn't appear again. Now it appears in every scenario. I don't see any effect from it. Would you like a save file?
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Yes.
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

dabber wrote: Of these, my conclusion is that only the Gryphon Rider and maybe Assassin are really worth using. The Gryphon Rider has the best balance of melee and ranged and by far the best mobility. His biggest weakness with ranged (accuracy) is easily negated by the many magical bows that exist. I like Assassin for Distant Attack and Focussed, but his melee damage is so pitiful he is really a one use guy. I don't see a reason to use the Juggernaut - the Overlord is better, and the Overlord's slow attack is much better than Horrid. Mayhem has potential value, but the Juggernaut doesn't have enough attacks to make it really good. The Nightprowler ... why use him?


On Champion and Scythemaster, I see the ranged weakness as huge. You can make up for it with the Dragon Legacies (my Swordmaster has Dark), but it means these units always get attacked with range, and rarely kill the attacker.
I see that maybe I should have used Gryphon Riders, hit and run is great...
I agree on the nightprowler.
To be honest, I prefer my units not to kill (too many) attacking units on defense, because that means I have to be more careful since more enemies can attack in total (this applies particularly to ranged, where strong attacks are found). Now this is not as important when you have very powerful support units to back up your unit, but still, I like to be as safe as possible... so ideally, they would have some not extremely strong ranged attack with slow. I have to admit that I have ice and dark dragon legacies on these units (Champion and at least one of my two Scythemasters), it would probably be a little bit annoying without. But I still don't see a huge weakness.
Okay, now I saw that you explained you liked to kill things faster. I guess that's a different objective...
Whiskeyjack wrote: I played one of the hammer trolls in part one and thougt him to be stronger than Destroyer with comparable gear and less AMLAs but both of them did not get very far with those. I would say that both are considerably weaker than a Dwarvish Hero though.
Was it the special named troll, though? That one had a significantly more powerful attack than normal trolls...
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Was it the special named troll, though? That one had a significantly more powerful attack than normal trolls...
It was that troll from Aluka´s dungeon. I just rechecked and you´re right, he is far stronger than a normal troll. Then normal trolls are probably pretty weak.

#Balancing
The most useless units IMO are ghosts (especially the drain line). No strong AMLAs and almost no items they can carry make them weaker on defence than most other units, the inability to get a weapon also leaves them with mediocre offense and to top it off they get no Legacy. Since the units are already weak for level 4 they have nothing going for them except the flying. I do think that they should not be able to carry items, but they need something to compensate that or they are just unplayable (I ran some of the backstabbers with Konrads Might in part I, but the drain line was already unplayable useless in the first half and the others where almost useless to because of the invisibility problem (is this fixed everywhere or only in specific scenarios for performance reasons?)).

Edit: Just realized that starting random discussions about every unit that comes to mind will make this very messy and complecating. I will refrain from further comments on units not at the moment discussed on Aevyns walk through.
Last edited by Whiskeyjack on April 7th, 2015, 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Paulomat4
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Paulomat4 »

here it is
Attachments
LotI1-Into_the_Shadows.gz
(254.15 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Paulomat4
Thanks. I could replicate it, but the cause eludes me so far.

@Others.
I did not consider the disadvantage of being unable to use weapons when setting the properties of ghosts. I guess that the effects of most AMLAs on them could be doubled or even more.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I've just noticed that Whirlwind is doing excess damage to the extra targets. Looking through abilities_events.cfg, I notice there are two events for whirlwind. One does half damage while the other works with drain and leech. That doesn't easily explain what I'm seeing, as the excess damage is not consistent, but it might be the cause anyway. It also may be caused by some strange bug with resistance penetrations ... Efraim has 40% resistance penetration and his extra targets take a lot of excess damage. Lethalia has 5% resistance penetrations and her extra targets are taking 1 extra damage.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

Aevyn wrote:
ELF RACE BALANCING - PART 1

Elvish Seer

Personal Opinion: Needs Improvement
Reference wrote:HP: 75, Movement: 6
Resistances: Arcane: 20%; Blade: 0%; Cold: 0%; Fire: 0%; Impact 0%, Pierce: 0%
Usage: Mixed Fighter
Base Attacks: Melee 7 - 3 (Impact), Ranged 6 - 6 [Gossamer] (Impact, Slow), Ranged 11 - 6 [Faerie Fire] (Arcane, Magical)
Possible Leveling AMLAs: Faerie Sabre (melee, magical, struggle)
Max Melee Attacks: 4 (1 AMLA required); Max Ranged Attacks -- Gossamer: 7 (1 AMLA required); Max Ranged Attack -- Faerie Fire: 7 (1 AMLA required)
Weapons Used: Staves

Description: "Sometimes, an elf can get so close to the faerie world, that it grants her a knowledge all the other beings never even dreamed about. This allows her to be both a good healer and a powerful spell-caster."
Elvish Overlord

Personal Opinion: Needs Improvement
Suggestion: Change Arcane and Blade resistances to 20% and 10% respectively. Add radiation (poison support) and maybe Damage Aura (10) to the leadership AMLA line. Remove ambush AMLAs within trees. Consider allowing staff equipment
Reference wrote:HP: 78, Movement: 6
Resistances: Arcane: -10%; Blade: 0%; Cold: 0%; Fire: 0%; Impact 0%, Pierce: 0%
Usage: Mixed Fighter
Base Attacks: Melee 10 - 5 (blade), Ranged 8 - 5 (arcane, magical)
Possible Leveling AMLAs: Leadership (4), Ambush, Sticky Sword (Melee [blade], Slow)
Max Melee Attacks: 7 (2 AMLAs required); Max Ranged Attacks: 7 (3 AMLAs required);
Weapons used: Swords

Description: "Sometimes it happens that an elf gets so much skilled in swordsmanship, that he decides to walk the path of faerie in order to discover more and be even a greater warrior in combat. This requires extensive knowledge about both faerie and mundane things, that allows him to take away the traditional elvish bow, and use faerie fire instead. The main problem of winged fighters is that touching iron causes pain to them - that is why they use weapons made from various rare metals."
Faerie Incarnation

Personal Opinion: Generally Balanced

Elvish Warlord

Personal Opinion: Generally Balanced

PS: I'll add the Faerie Incarnation and Elvish Warlord references soon. Should you have questions as to why I suggest the above, I have no issue explaining my reasoning. I had planned to originally, but in a rush at the moment.
I'll simply continue from the above quote. Leaving Assassin and Nightprowler for last because there's a bit of a dilemma with them in my opinion. Also, it seems I have an opinion differing from the majority when it comes to NIghtprowler.

Elvish Juggernaut

Personal Opinion: Needs Improvement
Suggestions: Increase blade and pierce resistance by 20% and 10% respectively.

Dabber wrote:Mayhem has potential value, but the Juggernaut doesn't have enough attacks to make it really good
Xargon wrote:Elvish Juggernaut: Fine, but the units from above do everything better.
Aevyn wrote:Elvish Juggernaut is the only unit that's dull to me, but even it makes a good soldier unit.
Reference wrote:HP: 83, Movement: 5
Resistances: Arcane: -10%; Blade: 0%; Cold: 0%; Fire: 0%; Impact 0%, Pierce: 0%
Usage: Fighter
Base Attacks: Melee 12 - 5 [Blade Storm] (blade), Ranged 8 - 5 [Bow] (pierce)
Possible Leveling AMLAs: Grim Strike(Melee [blade], horrid), Mayhem (Melee [blade], mayhem), Marksman
Max Melee Attacks: 6 (2 AMLAs required); Max Ranged Attacks: 6 (3 AMLAs required);
Weapons used: Swords and Bows

Description: "Elves are known to be excellent archers, but that is only because they prefer bows as primary weapons. They can be equally good with swords, but only a few elves develop this talent. They can whirl their swords in their hands like if they were just small sticks, but with the force of a furious storm, cutting their enemies asunder."
Suggestions: The general consensus on the juggernaut is that it's pretty bland. Minor increases to resistance is one path. Also, why not buff Mayhem. By default, the attack has 3 swings. Why not have it match the base melee attack amount for the base unit attack. That way, mayhem can be more useful as more melee attacks are added to the unit. There are pretty decent combos you can make with grim strike and mayhem in terms of items so perhaps these minor changes are enough?
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I like super compact data, so here is an expanded chart of human, elf and dwarf units.
units4_crop.jpg
I left off Shadowalker and Exterminator because they are so complicated they don't fit well into the chart. Also forgot human cavalry.
The melee only guys are at the bottom, and I didn't extend the coloring to them, otherwise it is by race.
The "ranged" column on the Scythemaster is his Whirlwind.

A few observations:
I had not realized the Elvish Assassin had such a large advantage in ranged damage, although extra attack items make the Dw Technocrat insane at ranged. I'm a bit unsure why I am running a Champion Bowman instead of an Elvish Assassin. I had thought the Champion Bowman was better in melee, but that is incorrect. Champion Bowman has better total resistances, more hitpoints, and lower experience to level, but I think I should be switching to the elf.
Except the Dwarf technocrat, with a single +1 attack item, has more damage output than the elf, both melee and ranged, and better resistances. But with no Focused and only 2 or 3 ranged attacks, he is very unreliable and cannot suck much to heal himself.

I've been running a Swordmaster, but maybe I should switch to Destroyer. Better resistances (although worse elemental), better damage (type impact helps even more) and the Berserk (3) Attack is devastating - no need for Doom if you just obliterate the target. Except part of my Swordmaster's power comes from the Dark Set, especially the extra boosts to Dark Dragon breath, and a Destroyer can't use that set.

Because of Darkens ensuring he is always boosted, the Blackguard actually has more damage output than the Destroyer, unless you Illuminate the Destroyer.

Elvish Overlord is awesome in melee, but his ranged is even worse than the numbers show because he gets no weapon to improve it and he deals arcane damage (bad against demons).

Despite his raw melee numbers being pretty average, I suspect the Champion actually has the highest melee damage output because of Parry. 2 misses put him near the top and 3 misses put him past the Overlord.

Dwarf Protector looks just as bad as you'd expect at damage output, but his job is being unkillable.
Pilum Master looks about as bad as you'd expect from a level 3, but he's easy to level.
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

dabber wrote:I like super compact data, so here is an expanded chart of human, elf and dwarf units.
units4_crop.jpg
I left off Shadowalker and Exterminator because they are so complicated they don't fit well into the chart. Also forgot human cavalry.
The melee only guys are at the bottom, and I didn't extend the coloring to them, otherwise it is by race.
The "ranged" column on the Scythemaster is his Whirlwind.

A few observations:
I had not realized the Elvish Assassin had such a large advantage in ranged damage, although extra attack items make the Dw Technocrat insane at ranged. I'm a bit unsure why I am running a Champion Bowman instead of an Elvish Assassin. I had thought the Champion Bowman was better in melee, but that is incorrect. Champion Bowman has better total resistances, more hitpoints, and lower experience to level, but I think I should be switching to the elf.
Except the Dwarf technocrat, with a single +1 attack item, has more damage output than the elf, both melee and ranged, and better resistances. But with no Focused and only 2 or 3 ranged attacks, he is very unreliable and cannot suck much to heal himself.

I've been running a Swordmaster, but maybe I should switch to Destroyer. Better resistances (although worse elemental), better damage (type impact helps even more) and the Berserk (3) Attack is devastating - no need for Doom if you just obliterate the target. Except part of my Swordmaster's power comes from the Dark Set, especially the extra boosts to Dark Dragon breath, and a Destroyer can't use that set.

Because of Darkens ensuring he is always boosted, the Blackguard actually has more damage output than the Destroyer, unless you Illuminate the Destroyer.

Elvish Overlord is awesome in melee, but his ranged is even worse than the numbers show because he gets no weapon to improve it and he deals arcane damage (bad against demons).

Despite his raw melee numbers being pretty average, I suspect the Champion actually has the highest melee damage output because of Parry. 2 misses put him near the top and 3 misses put him past the Overlord.

Dwarf Protector looks just as bad as you'd expect at damage output, but his job is being unkillable.
Pilum Master looks about as bad as you'd expect from a level 3, but he's easy to level.
Thanks for the info, btw. Even if I'm not responding, I'll quote comments like the above for the final suggestion proposal per race for Dugi. I'm trying my best not to start creating suggestions for many units at one time. If anyone disagrees on suggestions or wants to argue, this thread can get constipated fast and it's already constipated as it is. For example, we may argue about the nightprowler soon, but arguments are how things get done. Saving all relevant posts though.

By the way, does anyone else think it's weird that there are two assassin like classes for elf archers? Why not keep the nightprowler but change assassin to "elvish bowmaster". May need a sprite but isn't it a bit more fitting?
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

By the way, does anyone else think it's weird that there are two assassin like classes for elf archers? Why not keep the nightprowler but change assassin to "elvish bowmaster".
I named Elvish Assassin like that because he is the guy whose shots come out of nowhere and kill without warning. Nighprowler kills in a different way. I know both are basically assassins, but one is the classical style assassin, one is the modern kind of assassin. If you came up with a good name, I'd rename it, but bowmaster is so boring and as uncool as molten lava.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Good point about focus Aevyn. Some amount of wider comparisons are necessary, but my chart should be enough for that. Let's focus on elves.

I agree that the Juggernaut is not a high end unit, but I'm not sure of the fix. I don't really like the idea of giving him armour, nor do I think that slight armour would make a difference.
Value of Nightprowler is entirely about how you evaluate the invisibility powers. I don't care about them at all, so I don't use the unit.
Warlord is okay within elves, but is massively outclassed by the Duke.
Overlord is pretty good, but not great. Maybe okay as is.
I think Assassin and Gryphon Rider are fine as is.
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

Now I'm curious for Aevyn's opinion on the nightprowler. I never bothered to level one, so I also have no idea what berserk shot does. I would have liked to use the invisibility, but it seemed to be broken - or does that only concern certain levels?
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

Dugi wrote:I named Elvish Assassin like that because he is the guy whose shots come out of nowhere and kill without warning. Nighprowler kills in a different way. I know both are basically assassins, but one is the classical style assassin, one is the modern kind of assassin. If you came up with a good name, I'd rename it, but bowmaster is so boring and as uncool as molten lava.
:lol: You're right, bowmaster is a bit bland. I'll have to think about that one or maybe someone else has an idea. Only thing that comes to mind at the moment is "Elvish Sniper".
Dabber wrote: I agree that the Juggernaut is not a high end unit, but I'm not sure of the fix. I don't really like the idea of giving him armour, nor do I think that slight armour would make a difference.
Value of Nightprowler is entirely about how you evaluate the invisibility powers. I don't care about them at all, so I don't use the unit.
Warlord is okay within elves, but is massively outclassed by the Duke.
Overlord is pretty good, but not great. Maybe okay as is.
I think Assassin and Gryphon Rider are fine as is.
Thanks! Opinion on nightprowler below. Elf suggestions as a whole incoming shortly.
Xargon wrote:Now I'm curious for Aevyn's opinion on the nightprowler. I never bothered to level one, so I also have no idea what berserk shot does. I would have liked to use the invisibility, but it seemed to be broken - or does that only concern certain levels?
Dabber wrote:Value of Nightprowler is entirely about how you evaluate the invisibility powers. I don't care about them at all, so I don't use the unit.
Just some background information that I can quote to newer players (and in the guide) in the future. Regulars can probably skip.
Spoiler:
So lets look at the Nightprowler. Most of you say you would never use it, but I'd describe it as one of the most powerful units in the game. Was taken aback to the extent that I needed to actually recheck its stats.


BASE ANALYSIS
Spoiler:
Automatically I'd rate this units base strenghts as pretty decent; you won't find many units capable of this.


POTENTIAL ANALYSIS

This unit can use a lot of items / legacies to its advantage. For obvious reasons it'd be troublesome to list every single combination, but I'll provide an example. Here is just a SINGLE possibility:
Spoiler:
What I've listed is just one of many combinations, and I've used this unit thoroughly. The above is quite boring to me really; I haven't even gotten into what creativity and the right legacies can accomplish with this unit, nor have I explained a way to manipulate its backstab capabilities. Also, with the above I've only used three items. In other words, it's potential is HUGE.

BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER

In my opinion it's a bit too powerful and when I compile the final suggestion proposal on elves for discussion with all of you (very soon; almost done) it'll be nerfed. I'm just surprised people think it's weak. There's always the possibility I'm wrong however, so please argue if you think so.

Anyway, I need to get back to studying chemistry. A tiny wesnoth break turned into this :D
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Just a few remarks.
dabber wrote:Except the Dwarf technocrat, with a single +1 attack item, has more damage output than the elf, both melee and ranged, and better resistances. But with no Focused and only 2 or 3 ranged attacks, he is very unreliable and cannot suck much to heal himself.
My DT currently has 122-4, marksman, and is pretty reliable (3 items +1 attack, made him a Konrad's Might stick).
dabber wrote:I've been running a Swordmaster, but maybe I should switch to Destroyer.
I have a pair of those, very happy with them. Both are illuminated, have 11MP and do 46-4/47-4 magic, poison, slow.
Aevyn wrote:The intoxicator crafting item is fairly cheap. Equip it and now both of it's attacks (melee and ranged) cut incoming damage in half.
I like Intoxicator, but it doesn't slow ranged? Apart from that, I had both an Elvish Assassin and Nightprowler and didn't think they were that great; but it's totally possible that I didn't explore their full potential.
Dugi wrote:I did not consider the disadvantage of being unable to use weapons when setting the properties of ghosts.
Actually I just gave my Dark Shade metal claws. And although ghosts can't wear armor, they can take everything else like helms, gauntlets...
Last edited by nuorc on April 9th, 2015, 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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