Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Jeffers0n wrote:Claws(Grypons) and thundersticks can be crafted, but they don't drop
Ah yes, thx. Even if it's only Konrad's Might with marksman, it helps.
Whiskeyjack wrote:Not sure about Ephraim, he never was a healing type unit for me, so I didn´t even consider this for him.
He's leading my units into battle, healing would come in as a handy bonus.
I use one of those just for style, but they really can´t compete in anything but defenses (and the zipping, obviously) and offense is almost to weak to take enemies down solo in later levels.
Then I just send two or three of'em. :D

By now mine range from 12-4 to 18-4, but they also have explosive fireballs and chill tempest. Three have penetrate, so they can just leave after firing. Unless, how I had to learn, they are slowed; 1/2 MP is not enough for teleporting...
my Elder Mage is at 55-5 or 55-6
That's quite impressive. But I'm quite happy with mine having 24-5 and unearthly lightning at 42-3; never used his curse, though...
I have a cunning plan.
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Whiskeyjack wrote:I use one of those just for style, but they really can´t compete in anything but defenses (and the zipping, obviously) and offense is almost to weak to take enemies down solo in later levels. My Duelist Wizard hits for something like 13-4, my Elder Mage is at 55-5 or 55-6 (admittedly with a little better Equipment and a considerably bigger amount of offensive AMLAs).
I've concluded the Duelist works best leveling the explosive fireball almost exclusively, and finding him Helm and Armour of the King (extra base attack). That actually makes him stronger than the Elder Mage in most situations (assuming Koschei's Journal on the Elder Mage), and he has the slow spell for other situations. The extra attacks on the Elder Mage look great, but I'm usually killing something without using them all.
I've been running an Elder Mage seriously in my second time through and I'm not satisfied with her. Even with great equipment, I have to work too hard to protect her. My Duelist wanders around fairly alone and dares most demons to attack.
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

In the scenario Jungle Hell, is there any way to obtain items dropped on impassable tiles? It happens for me all the time, and I don't really feel like spending extra time to make sure it cannot happen...
And if there is not, as I assume: would it be possible to make items drop on the nearest passable tile?

edit: Also, is there something particularly good about particle storm, does it get some awesome AMLAs or something? I was a bit disappointed when (at least at first) I saw it is just a storm attack with comparable damage to meteor storm and arcane damage - which is not all that useful when you are fighting demons all the time.
Last edited by Xargon on April 4th, 2015, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jeffers0n
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Jeffers0n »

In chapter 1 episode Ascension Efraim can unstore items, but he can't pick the up or use them
Edit: in the souleater upgrade menu it mentions a chill tempest and a chill wave as requirements, but they are not available as upgrade paths.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@Jeffers0n
Fixed the errors in item descriptions. I also fixed the issue with availability of item storage in the Ascension scenario. Efraim should have his wave of fear attack counted as chill wave.

@Xargon
Currently no. I was told about this possibility and I am thinking about a solution that would not be too heavy.
I might make the particle storm stronger.

#Healing
Okay, so the suggestion is to slightly nerf Faerie Incarnation's healing and buff Celestial Messenger's, Efraim's and Lethalia's healing? You guys think that it's okay?
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dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Dugi wrote:#Healing
Okay, so the suggestion is to slightly nerf Faerie Incarnation's healing and buff Celestial Messenger's, Efraim's and Lethalia's healing? You guys think that it's okay?
I don't think there is a consensus at this point, although maybe I'm wrong. I think the main buffing suggested was getting to the same endpoint by spending one fewer AMLA. While I personally don't value healing others much, I do notice fairly often that I am not currently running a Faerie Incarnation, so healing a seriously hurt unit takes a long time. I see the point that spending a level for just +2 heal other often feels like a waste, but I've also felt some frustration later because I didn't take the extra +2. Is +2 heal other the best AMLA ever? Certainly not. But I'll definitely take it over the end point AMLAs of +1 damage to a single attack.


Random aside question. What is the most no-brainer AMLA to take? I think it is the Dwarf Protector grabbing Adamant (triple resistances on defense).
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

I have another question, it's about formulas again (hooray!): I have redeem level 11, and it says adjacent units are redeemed with 50% chance if their level is 5. However, this never seems to happen. I did quite a bit of reloading now to check, and unless I did not do enough to change random seeds (so I get a fixed result every time), it never redeems adjacent level 5's (low levels where it's 100% work fine).
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@dabber
Okay, I'll wait for more input, if nothing comes, I'll just do what you suggested.

@Xargon
The seed remains if you reload, so random events will happen in the same way. In another situation, it might succeed.
Xargon
Posts: 86
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

But does this percentage depend only on the random seed and are therefore fixed? The hit chances do reset upon reload for example.
By the way, I also restarted Wesnoth a few times to see if that changes anything (it doesn't), and while I do not really remember every single occasion, I can say with certainty that redeeming adjacent level 5's worked almost never for me in the past (probably never). But I will try some more...

About healing: I think I kind of agree. Even badly hurt units are healed enough by Faerie Incarnations in 2 turns to resume fighting. On the other hand, I feel that healing is their main use, so they should not be nerfed too much, maybe +32 as maximum? The strong healing of Faerie Incarnations also makes the healing of other units a bit redundant, since you can just wait for a bit and then heal with the Faerie when the unit is more damaged. But I think doing one thing at a time would be enough (nerfing Faerie healing or strengthening other healing), else Faeries lose their main use.

Also, what weapons are Faerie Incarnations supposed to wear? I think this was mentioned as a bug somewhere here before: I have 2 Faerie Incarnations, one of them can use a staff, the other can't.

edit: Just to make sure, I crafted every weapon type, and that Faerie can wear none.
gfgtdf
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by gfgtdf »

Xargon:
This depends on the version you are playing, in 1.10 the random results for wml will be the same if you reload. In 1.12 it will not be the same (here the rand= used they same rng as attack results).

I use one of those just for style, but they really can´t compete in anything but defenses (and the zipping, obviously) and offense is almost to weak to take enemies down solo in later levels.
I diagree, when i played this campaign Siver mage my stronges unit (against multiple enemies, not in 1vs1) of my army, You can give them a Book of fireballs for '+1 strikes' amlas for their fireball attack, and also have normal '+3 damage' amla for their fireball attack. If you also give them good equip they can get a 100-5 explosive attack. And due to its huge macical resistance it will take nearly no retaliation damage, Their only drawback is their melee attack which does nearly no damage.
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Xargon wrote:Just to make sure, I crafted every weapon type, and that Faerie can wear none.
That's the 'Legacy of the Pacifist'.

*duck*
I have a cunning plan.
Xargon
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xargon »

I'm playing 1.12. I tested this on a few more occasions, and I kind of suspect that redeeming adjacent units never works when the chance is not 100%. Of course, right now I am only testing this with redeem on 11 and trying to redeem adjacent level 5 units. I remember some earlier occasions with lower levels, but of course I mostly tried to redeem with low levels adjacent, so I did not extensively test this.

edit: Okay, big edit. I have some time over the weekend...
Some comments on earlier suggestions:
Dugi wrote:1. How about making the dragon skills upgrade all attacks whose base damage type is the damage type of the attack? I mean that the upgrades to fire dragon's breath attack would upgrade also Elder Mage's fireball.
That sounds like a good idea. But I don't think there are even that many cases where the extra attack is no use at all. Usually, the breath attack can become stronger or has extra features.
Whiskeyjack wrote: I really like this idea too, but I think it would still have to be a significant increase, because things like Fire Dragon Legacy can get explosive and incinerate. Other examples would be: Celestial Messenger with Legacy of Light (The full illuminating stuff), Lich with Dark Dragon Legacy (drain on ranged for DDL) and with Ice Dragon Legacy (AoE and slow), Dragon Rider with Fire Dragon Legacy (I think this one should give something especially awesome ;) ), etc.
I like that - partially because I have a dragon rider with fire dragon legacy :D. Maybe those combinations where the unit or its attacks are "aligned" with the legacy could give an extra bonus? (Such as the resistance penetration suggested earlier, maybe also some toughness bonus in some cases)
Dugi wrote: 3. Scythemaster uses the same weapon as Halberdier, it just looks differently. For Ranger, I am following the visual part, if he used daggers, I would get bug reports that he has a sword and uses daggers.
I agree that following the visual part probably makes the most sense. There are just two things that irritate me:
- Hardly any maximum level unit uses daggers. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Dwarven Technocrat, where it is usually not his main weapon (which is, of course, his thunderstick with equipment giving extra attacks!)
- Circumventing this by equipping it before leveling up and then keeping it (as explained by dabber) sounds like a glitch to me. I think this should rather be removed (i.e. move the item into storage on levelup or something like that), or is there a reason for keeping it around except creating super-powerful units (which is fine, just in this case it seems so illogical...)?
Delicius169
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Delicius169 »

I have suggestion- give Snow hunter´s Blizzard explosive slow. Attack 22-2, is not really usefull, even if it have a storm. And it takes a lot of AMLAs till you get it. And I think that his Ice bolt could have slow too.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

I have suggestion- give Snow hunter´s Blizzard explosive slow. Attack 22-2, is not really usefull, even if it have a storm. And it takes a lot of AMLAs till you get it. And I think that his Ice bolt could have slow too.
Storm has a bigger area than explosive or am I missing something here? It works all around the unit, not only in one direction. I think they do not need slow on the Ice bolt since they already have slow on their bolas.
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Aevyn »

I'll chime in on this
Dugi wrote: #Healing
Okay, so the suggestion is to slightly nerf Faerie Incarnation's healing and buff Celestial Messenger's, Efraim's and Lethalia's healing? You guys think that it's okay?
Lowering Faerie's max healing to 32 is okay; I'm indifferent as to whether it stays at that value or 40. However, I'm firmly against improving the healing of Celestial Messenger in any shape or form. As it is, it's one of the best units in the game and more of an offensive unit. Thus we shouldn't be increasing its supportive output. Faerie on the other hand is more defensive and deserves that increased healing value.

Controversially, I'd even push to decrease Celestial Messenger's healing advancements beyond +8 entirely as it's sufficiently powerful with both melee and ranged
.....
Assuming Dugi is fine with this, I'm taking the initiative to go through each and every high level unit and outline their advantages / weaknesses as well as give any balance suggestions.

We constantly discuss the same popular units over and over (Celestial Messenger, Prophet, Faerie) while neglecting the other units. I think it's time we gave the others some attention
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