Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
10
16%
Reaper
6
9%
Scythemaster
4
6%
Shadowalker
3
5%
Shadow Prince
7
11%
Siege Troll
3
5%
Sky Goblin
1
2%
Snow Hunter
7
11%
Soul Shooter
3
5%
Swordmaster
12
19%
Troll Boulderlobber
0
No votes
Warlock
5
8%
Werewolf Rider
2
3%
Zombie Rider
1
2%
 
Total votes: 64

dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

@ Ovili / Champions
What makes the Champion so much better? Sure parry produces extra hits, but I don't find killing demons when I attack to be all that difficult - surviving being attacked by a swarm of them is the challenge, and nothing will attack the Champion in melee. Put a similar set of equipment on another unit and what do you get?
As for clearing a level with only 4 champion plus Efraim, that sounds a little low to me, but not crazy. The virtue of more units is rotating the front line and speed, and I rarely need to rotate the front line. Since I just started it, I'll restart Refuge of Black Hope and only move out 2 Celestial Messengers, 2 Gryphon Riders, Lethalia and Efraim and see what I think.
Your post does make me think I should pull my champion off the shelf. Now that I have Amulet of Reason, Ring of Devil's Doom, and other things to boost elemental resistance to crazy levels, he should be able to function. I recall him getting blasted by Demon magic and needing healing, so I stopped using him.


PS Dugi, I just noticed a possible bug in demon traits. The trait cold varies the base damage with difficulty, but not the damage per level. Every other trait has base damage constant, but damage per level increases with difficulty. The description is also wrong (says 4 attacks, has 5 attacks).
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

That one was intentional. I wanted one of these traits to scale differently than others. The number of attacks was indeed incorrect.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Hey Dugi,

is it intentional, that when a unit gets a MLA in the AIs turn it gets no AMLA and no bonuses besides a fullheal? (I think I didn´t have this at the start and it only started some games earlier but I´m not sure. I have this problem every time a unit advances on the AIs turn.)

Best regards
Whiskeyjack
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

They should advance at the beginning of your following turn, no? If they don't, tell me about it. There is a workaround, you can use the alter advancement right-click menu option to replace that empty AMLA by something better.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Hey Dugi,

Thanks for the help, I will use the workaround when this occurs again and if I get the chance I can send you a save file (the last time this happend it was almost not reproducable because the unit didn´t kill enough enemies). Earlier in the campaign it was like you said and they advanced at the start of the next turn but now it does not happen any more.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

No need for a save file, I only wanted a confirmation. I'll work on it.
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Hey Dugi,

sadly, the workaround does not work. "Alter Advancement" still showes me the last real advancement I took.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

This looks like something worse than what I expected. Sorry for the inconvenience I caused by dabbing into this extremely vulnerable part of the code.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Wesnoth documentation seems to need updating ... I cannot find any documentation on creating a bonus attack, which LotI uses a lot. Specifcally,

Code: Select all

[effect]
    apply_to=bonus_attack
    etc, etc
When is it appropriate to use "bonus_attack" vs "new_attack"? Why does bonus_attack sometimes include a force_original_attack=something line? Why does it not always need a force_original_attack= line?
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

bonus_attack works thanks to a trick hidden in the stats.cfg file. It does not work outside LotI. It picks the best attack of the unit that meets criteria, edits it in some way and adds it as a new attack. It accepts these arguments:
range - the range of the attack, if not given it will pick the unit's best attack regardless of range
name - the name of the new attack
clone anim - creates a new animation for the attack based on the base attack's animation
type - the damage type of the new attack
damage - damage modifier, in percents
number - number of attacks' modifier, in percents
attack_weight, defense_weight - can be used to prevent the new attack from being used offensively or defensively
merge - if yes, it works like the merges attacks property of items
[specials] - weapon specials to add

___________________
Btw, I was recently reported a bug causing units that advance during the enemy turn never to advance. I was not able to replicate it. Can somebody replicate it or it was a false positive?
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Really glad I posted here instead of in some general forum then! :)
I've been looking at two things. One is the Dwarf Technocrat (level 4 Thunderer), who has separate bonus attacks for rifle and rapid shooting. With 3 extra AMLAs, the rifle attack is more powerful than the normal attack. But that level of rifle does not improve the rapid shooting attack. Why not?
As a design thing, are the two offense only bonus attacks worth having? The rapid attack removes the single shot luck/variation, at the cost half the maximum damage. The rifle gives marksman (instead of Konrad's Might), and eventually higher damage, but doesn't work on defense. Other units put marksman on the main attack, but also give a slight damage penalty. Alternatively, I'd like to see another AMLA to put a scope on the rifle and replace marksman with focussed and less damage. To me, that would provide a reason to have both the rifle attack (insta-kill, like Execution attacks) vs the rapid attack (some damage).

Secondly, Book of Lycanthropy. It's attacks are bonus_attacks, making them based off whatever natural melee attack exists. That means the book isn't very useful on a primary ranged unit, which had been my initial thought. However, since they are bonus_attacks, they gain properties of any primary weapon that is equipped, and that seems very odd (a mace improves your direwolf attack). My thought would be making a claw attack (metal claws possible), a bite attack (poison, maybe other nasty stuff with extra AMLAs) and the breath attack. All would be new attacks with fixed initial values and a couple simple AMLAs to improve them. In principle I'd love to have one attack (the claws?) that can be used defensively, but maybe I'm being greedy.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Bonus attacks have their own improvements that improve only them. These improvements are multiplicative to all other sources of damage. You can improve the base attack to improve them both, you can improve the bonus attack to get large damage boosts in it. You don't have to use Konrad's Might, you can use for example Thundering Revenge that adds explosive, and that one will hit really many targets when its base damage is so huge. To be honest, I have made many of the items and AMLAs quite randomly and waited for some strategies around it to be found.

What you're suggesting about the Book of Lycantropy is not hard to implement, but I think that it would limit the variety. If a unit using it has no melee attack, it gets a bite attack (but I think that there are no max level units without that). It can make a melee unit stronger, but it can be also used for other purposes. It allows you to transform a weak attack with good specials into a powerful killing tool. Aevyn made an Ancient Lich specialise on melee, wear a few items that increase non-weapon damage and get the Guide to Lycantropy item. That way, he created a unit with melee berserk drain attack that could execute most enemies, even bosses if they dealt suitable damage types.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

You have a valid point about the book. My comment is entirely based on my default thinking and my constant search for defensive combat value. :)
My latest theory is the Technocrat is an incredibly awesome unit, because a couple extra attacks make his shooting the most damaging I've found. But his melee is terrible and I haven't come up with a way to improve it sufficiently.
dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Bug in Verminous Sewers. In the switch statement for Abaddon's weakness, arcane is listed twice. Line 619 should be impact, not arcane.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

Dugi wrote: Btw, I was recently reported a bug causing units that advance during the enemy turn never to advance. I was not able to replicate it. Can somebody replicate it or it was a false positive?
See this attached save. End turn and the close-to-level Prophet on the left is the suspect of this bug (the corrupted myrmidon will attack him, if he survives, you'll trigger the bug, you have pretty good chance to do so)
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LotI2-Search_for_Elves_Kolo_16.gz
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