Legend of the Invincibles

[Whiskeyjack]

Hey Dugi,

you´ll probably reject the following Legacy ideas, but I´d like to post them anyways. Two of them are just for fun, the third fills a strategic hole in my opinion:

note: numbers indicate the order of advancements to be taken, letters advancements available at the same time.

Legacy of Vampirism:

This Legacy idea mostly came into being by all the cool ablilities fitting the theme, but it might be way too strong in early stages of the campaign in scenarios were no enemies with arcane damage show up. This could also be really strong on units like Celestial Messenger, but -25% arcane resistance are a considerable drawback and that particular unit would also get hit quite hard from the chaotic advancement, thus I think it would be an interesting double edged sword.

• 1)new ability: blood drinking
• 2a)+1 melee damage, +1 suck, -5% arcane resistance
• 2b)+1 ranged damage, +1 spellsuck, -5% arcane resistance
• 3)new alignment: chaotic
• 4a)new ability: killhunger, -5% arcane resistance
• 4b)new ability: feeding, -10% arcane resistance

Legacy of Guardians:

Just another idea of turning a theme of matching things into an AMLA. Not particularly excited about this one, it´s the dullest of the three...
Yet I think something like a purely defensive AMLA (a tank if you will) is still missing.

• 1)new ability: steadfast, increases all resistances by 3%, increases vision range by 1
• 2a)increases all physical resistances by 4% (takeable 3 times, only needed once for 3) )
• 2b)increases all magical resistances by 4% (takeable 3 times, only needed once for 3) )
• 3a)new ability: unyielding, -1 movement point, increases vision range by 1 (not necessary for 4) )
• 3b)new ability: shield(10)
• 4)new ability: shield(20)

Legacy of Corruption:

This is the Legacy I´m least satisfied with, but also the one I think is actually filling a ?necessary? role in the current game: since you split the conviction ability (actually there´s a mistake in that abilities description, it lists lightning instead of arcane), AFAIK only the prophet now has the new frail tide special, which is in the end pretty unfitting for the unit itself as two of his three attacks are arcane...
While a lot of (new) items give magical penetrations now, the epitome of physical penetration not acchieved by Marrowrend is reached for pierce attacks on units that can carry the Thornsword and use the Iron Sentinel armour. Even the old Legacy of Sorrow was reduced to the magical reduction, thus I think adding a way to get at least some more physical penetration (magical numbers at ~100% penetration reachable in some extreme combinations of AMLA, Legacy and Items would still be impossible by a wide margin...) is missing. That is at least my feeling from the last playthrough. But perhaps the difficulty to get physical penetration is an intended flaw?

• 1)new ability: dark aura, +2 melee damage
• 2a)frail tide(10)
• 2b)new weapon special: infect (not necessary for 3 & 4) )
• 3)frail tide(20)
• 4)frail tide(25)

As I said, I´m not really satisfied with the current modell, I think it´s not very exciting, but I found it hard to find a better theme/abilities fitting for a Legacy designed around frail tide. At least it mirrors Legacy of Sorrow in being of the least interesting kind designwise I guess

Thoughts, @all?

[Dugi]

Okay, so regarding the Legacy of Vampirism (the name sounds a bit generic, what about Legacy of the Nighbound or Legacy of the Gloomwalkers?):
At first sight, it bears some similarities with Undead Legacy. There is already one legacy with arcane weakness. I suggest a bit of inspiration from Elder Scrolls here, either weakness to fire or sun damage (taking huge environmental damage at daytime, small at twilight) instead of it. The drawback should be unpleasant, because the mods it adds are very popular and can allow the unit to stay in combat for disturbingly long. Alignment change and suck does not work with advancements at the moment, but that can be fixed easily.

Legacy of Guardians:
It connects vision range with defensive abilities. These two are thematically quite far apart, good vision is usually aligned archers, who aren't very armoured. I am getting the idea, he should see far to know when his help is needed, but again, good defence limits movement. Vision range increase doesn't work with advancements, but again it may be fixed easily. Gameplay-wise, defences are often a game-breaker, because they may allow a unit to become highly resistant to everything, becoming OP. I think that the name isn't quite fitting, I think that Legacy of the Watchtower could be better but still not good enough.
Also, it looks a bit inspired by the Warcraft film.

Legacy of Corruption:
The bonuses look quite random, like fillers needed only to put the frail tide there. Frail tide itself does not appear particularly corrupt, the most evil thing about it is that its name is a reference to a death metal album. I think that something called Legacy of Corruption should have many other evil properties, like misanthropia, deathaura, lethargy, evisceration... Also, the frail tide ability is way too strong, you guessed right that it is deliberately hard to obtain, I'd prefer a single advancement for that that gives 15 points of frail tide.

Some related information you might find interesting:
In winter 2011/2012, I was considering putting together a story about three siblings having tiny bits of dragon descent in them. It would be slightly affecting them, one using it to be a powerful mage, one to be a strong warrior and one to be a scout with limitless endurance. The story was supposed to be about them slowly coming to each other, to exchange their knowledge of their powers to fight some dangerous threat. The construction of the story failed when I could not make up a proper threat they would be fighting, so I abandoned the idea. Some time later, I had the idea to insert it as a mechanic with no story behind it. So I created the first three legacies, the dragon legacies. After some more thinking, I added five more legacies and uploaded it.

[Whiskeyjack]

That was an interesting bit of information indeed, thanks for that! I think the Legacies are really cool system and I´m happy you developed it, always fun to play around with and (as apparent) come up with your own new ideas.

#Legacy of Vampirism
That was paralleled to the Dragon Legacies in name, you are right that Legacy fo the Nightbound sounds way cooler, the other one doesn´t really resonate with me.
I didn´t even think about the (sun)light aspect, that is indeed more fitting than arcane. I think fire resistance is too easily achievable for a lot of units, the penalty would have to be even higher than for arcane (30/35%). A second problem is, that fire isn´t as dangerous as arcane (which appears as very high special damage in a couple of chapters by way of your enemies (corrupted elves, etc.) and in part 1 at least arcane res is a lot harder to get (in high amounts) than fire). Your idea about damage at daytime on the other hand is one I really like. Something like sunburn (parallel to frostbite on that one helm) with higher damages depending on the AMLAs taken (instead of the 5/5/5/10 arcane res drop it could be 4-1/8-2/12-3/20-5 or even 5-2/10-4/15-6/25-10 damage taken at day-twilight), you´d have to work with a combination of high fire res, regeneration and healing to make the full number of AMLAs work, but on the other hand, the unit could probably fight for quite some time and feeding could boost a units hp really far in Inferno (I just like the thought of it, would have to be tested out if it is too much bonus).
As an aside: How would feeding interact with AoE-effects? IMO it shouldn´t work on more than the primary target.

#Legacy of Guardians
Whatchtower might be a more fitting and cooler name, I thought about a Guardian on the one hand as the person protecting from danger (shield(x) as well as vision range) and also as the tank absorbing the damage for others (the defenses, steadfast). As I said though, I´m not particularly enarmoured with this idea, just wanted to throw it out. You might be right with the creation of indestructible units, those bonus defenses on, say, a Dwarvish Hero would be too high.

#Legacy of Corruption
My line of thought was that of a corruption not of the mind/spirit/whatever, but of the physical (corroding/decaying...), thus making people more vulnerable to physical attacks (perhaps Legacy of Decay would have been a better name?). I think dark aura and infect fit that theme quite nicely, but perhaps frail tide doesn´t!? It might be helpful if you could explain what exactly it is you imagine the ability to be and do.
As for the reduction: I´m not sure why you think it´s so OP, as I argued, magic pen is still way easier to get and Legacy of Sorrow as well as a lot of items provide conviction (in the case of Sorrow up to 25!). I fail to see the difference here. Taking it at (15) is also fine with me though, I´d just have to think about some other advancements. As I mentioned, I found it difficult to find other effects fitting the theme of decay, perhaps an explanation of what frail tide really does might indeed help to come up with some ideas (and possibly a cooler name...)

[Dugi]

As an aside: How would feeding interact with AoE-effects? IMO it shouldn´t work on more than the primary target.

Nothing propagates to secondary targets from AoE unless specifically made to propagate, which is rare. In most cases, you can be sure that it does not propagate.

#Legacy of Decay
Decay is in this case a much better name than corruption. More decay-related abilities are lethargy, leech (the ability, not weapon spec), cancer and doom.
Frail Tide is harder to get than Conviction because spell suck is harder to get than the regular suck.

I would like to see more input about these suggested legacies.

[Whiskeyjack]

Decay is in this case a much better name than corruption. More decay-related abilities are lethargy, leech (the ability, not weapon spec), cancer and doom.

Which serves to underline my problem:

• lethargy is - to my best knowledge - not yet available to the player and would be pretty useless in most cases and somewhat crazy against Big Bads like Abbadon/Beelzebub
• leech feels like a nice to have, not really impactful - only option I´d consider
• cancer isn´t a Lagecy option for obvious reasons
• doom might also be an option, but I think it would be extremely powerful for a legacy, no? Could be an option as final powerhouse if not for frail tide

Giving resistances, movement points or vision range doesn´t fit the theme of Decay, getting stronger melee and/or ranged damage always remains as standard option. I think the possibilities for such a theme are thin thus my arguably boring proposition.

Another option might be parasite, depending on how far one is willing to take it.

[Dugi]

Another possibility could be to give some of its advancments reduced damage and increased hitpoints. It looks a bit zombie like.

[Jeffers0n]

Hello, back again after a long break from wesnoth. Still my second favourite campaign (favourite being AtS)
Just wanted to comment on the Nightbound and the Decay legacies
Nightbound: I like the idea of taking damage in during the day. Maybe combine it with slow and regen during the night?
Decay: I think Decay should get more hitpoints and attack damage, but less attacks, lower hit chance etc. As I imagine it, Decay means altering your body to feel less pain and maybe strengthen it so it becomes tougher, but in return it would make you less dextrous and slower.

I was considering putting together a story about three siblings having tiny bits of dragon descent in them. It would be slightly affecting them, one using it to be a powerful mage, one to be a strong warrior and one to be a scout with limitless endurance. The story was supposed to be about them slowly coming to each other, to exchange their knowledge of their powers to fight some dangerous threat.

I like the idea, a pity that you abandoned it. I would probably have the dragon part slowly corrupting them, until in the end the player would have to pick one to kill the other two for their dragon skills
In the end the player would play as Argan/Delly/Stormrider (Just to give them a bit more backstory) to kill the surviving sibling.

[Delicius169]

Btw: about Nightbound legacy- little question- if unit has darkens ability, it wont be affected by sun? because in that case, it wouldnt be big penalty...
P.S: And better would be some kind of legacies for undead units, it would improve their variety.

[Dugi]

Btw: about Nightbound legacy- little question- if unit has darkens ability, it wont be affected by sun? because in that case, it wouldnt be big penalty...

Yes, this would have to be avoided somehow. It could for example take the most illuminated hex in a radius of 5 and consider that value.

[Whiskeyjack]

You are right, darkening abilities would easily disable this and making it dependent on the time of day would be rather strange, with penetrating eternal darkness and all that

I´ve been campaigning for undead Legacies for a long time now, but that was shot down every time. Instead they got some more variety for their inherent AMLAs. But yeah, I still don´t use most undead units. I think one idea that was discussed in the past is race Legacies (like Elvish, Dwarvish, you get the idea).

[Jeffers0n]

The legacy could also disable darkening because it is after all the legacy of the Nightbound. The mods it gives are rather evil by nature and therefore a curse wouldn't be out of place.

[Dugi]

I´ve been campaigning for undead Legacies for a long time now, but that was shot down every time.

Uniformity was supposed to be a property of undead. No traits, no names... no legacies fits there, no?

I think one idea that was discussed in the past is race Legacies (like Elvish, Dwarvish, you get the idea).

Yeah, but I am not very enticed by that idea. And elf getting dwarvish legacy would no longer be an elf, because effects of legacy are often stronger than racial differences. A human with a troll legacy would have to regenerate more than trolls, making him more a troll than a human.

If you mean something like elves getting elvish legacy, humans getting human legacy and so on, it's actually something I am using in the next project, but I don't think that it's something that fits much here.

The legacy could also disable darkening because it is after all the legacy of the Nightbound.

So the guy could have a pal that would darken for him. Way too easy to circumvent.

[Whiskeyjack]

Uniformity was supposed to be a property of undead. No traits, no names... no legacies fits there, no?

Yeah, I got your lore reasoning in the past and I´m fine with that. Wanting undead Legacies is just a gameplay thing, because Legacies are what makes your units unique and adds another layer of combinations to AMLAs and items. Even if undead can keep up in stats (which might be true, I don´t think I had high end undeads with 20+ advancements), they are missing an essential part of what makes LotI fun and interesting (as I said, they have only two of the 3 layers (3 of the 4, if you consider books yet another)).

I think one idea that was discussed in the past is race Legacies (like Elvish, Dwarvish, you get the idea).

I think you misunderstood me here. The idea that was proposed before (I don´t think it was mine, but I kinda liked it) was, that the undead would get their own set of Legacies, pretty much applying the race the unit had while living. So an Elvish legacy might raise mobility, ranged damage/marksman, defense in forests and decrease arcane res. The Human one would give some arcane res and... not sure here. The Dwarvish Legacy would raise overall resistance (except arcane) and raise defense and mobility on hills/mountains, but reduce overall mobility. Kinda like the new [insert name of lvl 0 soulless here] already work, having slightly different stats depending on the race they once were. This would of course be somewhat reduced in it´s coolness for using the same sprites for a Dwarvish undead as for a Drake one. Once again, more a gameplay idea than great lore creation...

I´m not sure if all this is necessary though, I think undead are mostly fine. Just not as interesting to build, but that might even be a good thing for other players who don´t want to dig through every possible detail. The same fate befalls some units even with Legacies (hello there, Pilum Master).

[Jeffers0n]

So the guy could have a pal that would darken for him. Way too easy to circumvent.

Would it be possible to give him an ability like darkening or illumination that doesn't Illuminate or darken to counteract darkening?

[Whiskeyjack]

So the guy could have a pal that would darken for him. Way too easy to circumvent.

Would it be possible to give him an ability like darkening or illumination that doesn't Illuminate or darken to counteract darkening?

I have to say, I´d prefer Dugi´s version of accounting for the lit tiles in a radius for calculating the damage taken, that actually sound nice (and would help the Inferno issues -> who doesn´t run several illuminating units in his army? I think I´m oftentimes getting close to 50% because it reduces Demon damage. Would still mean less damage in Inferno than in a usual day scenario though.)
Ignoring darkening would just be bonkers story wise: How does sunlight affect you through unpenetrable darkness? And I think that the whole damage penalty is "curse" enough, adding another - ever preventing an escape from darkness - seems artificial to me.