Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Do the recent changes to chapters 4 and 9 (on github) fix the unpopularity of these parts?

Yes
6
55%
Partly
4
36%
No
1
9%
 
Total votes : 11

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Dugi » May 18th, 2017, 4:30 pm

Naron wrote:Well, I think it shouldn't appear at all. It's just too modern and inadequate for Wesnoth (in my opinion, of course). Some alternatives could be "allright" or "very well".
Changed it in the github version.
angrynarwhal wrote:Love the Kamikaze Sprint ability, unfortunately noticed that units killed with it don’t grant experience. Was wanting to run sprint + whirlwind demolition combo too :(
They should. The experience gained is sometimes postponed and granted later to prevent some bugs, it can be the case.
angrynarwhal wrote:Started the campaign over (Part I) with the unforgiving hardcore mod active. Was working great, until something broke. Unfortunately I don’t have much of an inkling what broke for troubleshooting. I went to load a game (Infinite Legion scenario) and first got the defeat message about Wesnoth being doomed… although neither Efraim/Lethalia had died. I also found that the mod was removing more units each time I loaded the save file (same result going back a couple turns, also with defeat message).
Can you please give me the contents of your persistent folder and the save file where it happens?
angrynarwhal wrote:Playing the campaigns through a second time, you’re more familiar with the best items to craft, which units & upgrade paths have the most potential, what happens each scenario, which toppings Beelzebub likes on his pizza (pepperoni, mushroom, anchovies), and what legacies are good for various units.
I might weaken the items slightly to make hard harder a bit.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby angrynarwhal » May 19th, 2017, 12:02 am

Dugi wrote:angrynarwhal wrote:
Love the Kamikaze Sprint ability, unfortunately noticed that units killed with it don’t grant experience. Was wanting to run sprint + whirlwind demolition combo too
They should. The experience gained is sometimes postponed and granted later to prevent some bugs, it can be the case.


Checked... no exp gained after scenario had ended.

Dugi wrote:I might weaken the items slightly to make hard harder a bit.


How about making certain scenarios harder? Could be the final battle in each chapter for example, with a note that the scenario is meant to be harder than others.

Dugi wrote:Can you please give me the contents of your persistent folder and the save file where it happens?


Messaged you!
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » May 19th, 2017, 2:18 am

MsPierced wrote:I appreciate the warning, because that's the kind of thing I can easily see myself doing and messing up royally if I got frustrated. I've noticed most of the problems with add-on content in 1.13.7 seem to be small changes to the lua structure causing things to return nil or otherwise disrupt their function, which seems like an aggravating thing for modders to hunt down and deal with!
To be fair, doing that can sometimes work between dev versions, but in this case recent changes to the most fundamental functions (dofile and require) render the master version of that file completely incompatible with 1.13.7.

MsPierced wrote:I really loved Black Cross of Aleron by the way, the units were great and the unusual playstyle was very refreshing!
Well, thanks, but that sort of thing should generally go in my thread. ;)
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Dugi » May 19th, 2017, 6:47 am

Checked... no exp gained after scenario had ended.
It has nothing to do with scenario ending. It may be postponed into the next scenario. Can you try to attack with some other attack a few times and see if it comes back?

How about making certain scenarios harder? Could be the final battle in each chapter for example, with a note that the scenario is meant to be harder than others.
If I make a final scenario harder, other scenarios become trivial. Final scenarios may be hard, but only marginally harder than the rest of scenarios. I can make some unexpectedly easy sections harder, if you know of some.

One thing I learned from the new Doom is that boss fights should not be much harder than the rest of the content (as in many games like Diablo). If most of the game is very challenging, a significantly tougher boss would make the encounter impossible. If the boss was doable but significantly harder than the rest, then the rest would be boringly easy.

That is why I am proposing to weaken the items. As whole. Less damage bonuses, less resistance bonuses. Mostly on hard.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Naron » May 19th, 2017, 2:12 pm

Dugi wrote:
Naron wrote:Well, I think it shouldn't appear at all. It's just too modern and inadequate for Wesnoth (in my opinion, of course). Some alternatives could be "allright" or "very well".
Changed it in the github version.

Thanks. Now I have to re-download LotI and play it again. I must confess that I never completed the campaign, always stopped at the beginning of chapter IX - I don't know why, I simply couldn't finish it. Perhaps now I will manage to finish it and have the laurels.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Gyndur » May 19th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Hello! First of all i think i have played your campaign for about 3-4 years for now and it is really impressive work.
I wanted to give my 2 cents on some things though. (Too bad i have yet to play github version so some comments may not be valid).

That is why I am proposing to weaken the items. As whole. Less damage bonuses, less resistance bonuses. Mostly on hard.

1. Yes, i think some items (probably the ones giving leeches, suck, absorb, murderlust) need nerfing so you can not create units which can pretty much solo everything.

2. Maybe even some units like scythemaster, since even with penalty whirlwind seems still pretty op op.
3. Also maybe you could buff enemies on hard too? Chapter 2 and chapter 3 enemies are pretty much ''turkey shooting'' and demons in chapter 9 are no match for your units with all that good gear and stuff.
4. Beelzebub. I may not remember this correctly but wasn't it conceived to make people finish scenarios earlier and prevent farming? Imo it does the exact opposite! Because it is easy to kill and drops way too much items. Then you can summon it again and you get load of exp in the end. Could it be made to appear even completely randomly and be actual annoyance (much stronger or at least it should have lower levels. Another possible solution is to reduce turn limit.

But again i have not yet played github version so maybe im completely wrong here.

Also i apologize for using ''maybe'' probably too much.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Naron » May 21st, 2017, 10:31 am

I think I managed to install the github version by overwriting the files from the server with those from github, and the campaign launched without any error. So far it seems better than the server version. About Beelzebub, playing on Easy, I managed to kill him in the scenario "Search for the Elves". Until now I never knew that he could be summoned here. At first, I was about to reload the scenario and avoid summoning him, but decided to continue just to see how would things go. And my Destroyer has, well, destroyed him. I think that Beelzebub has learned now to fear a frenzied Destroyer :D .
Indeed there were loads of dropped items but I think this is right, after all I managed to kill a level 45 Demon. I hope I will manage to finish this campaign after a long time.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Dugi » May 22nd, 2017, 3:23 pm

Naron wrote:Perhaps now I will manage to finish it and have the laurels.
Good luck.
Gyndur wrote:1. Yes, i think some items (probably the ones giving leeches, suck, absorb, murderlust) need nerfing so you can not create units which can pretty much solo everything.
Which difficulty you played on? Items are much weaker on higher difficulties. Same for the other two points.
Gyndur wrote:Beelzebub. I may not remember this correctly but wasn't it conceived to make people finish scenarios earlier and prevent farming? Imo it does the exact opposite! Because it is easy to kill and drops way too much items.
I am not sure if your version is still affected by the bug allowing to spawn Beelzebub multiple times in a scenario, but normally, he should be possible to spawn only once. I know that he drops many, many items, but that is the idea - milking enemies for items until the turns end is boring but profitable, so this must be more profitable. It was not about restricting the access to items, it was more about making gameplay more fun.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby angrynarwhal » May 22nd, 2017, 9:06 pm

Is the multi-Beelz-summon fix on Github? I'm still able to summon multiple times & copied the repo over not that long ago. His attacking is quite sporadic, only seen him attack a few times total... could make Beelz more aggressive. Reducing his level would also be a good approach (e.g. 35 -> 25, 45 -> 35...). Pretty easy to milk him for XP whether he can be summoned once or many times.

Life-giving items/abilities are all quite useful, some could be hard to nerf though. Doing so would make the natural leeches / drains abilities/characters (i.e. efraim/lethalia/ancient lich) that much stronger compared to others. I'm ok with weakening damage bonuses/resistances, though some people might not like. Adamant/steadfast are quite handy - dwarves will still have no trouble soloing everything with some sustain items.

Turn time limits could also be decreased - ideally without impacting Beelzebub spawn time too much (less gold earned is fine tho).

Still haven't seen any xp from Kamazake sprint attack, granted I haven't done much with it lately.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Gyndur » May 22nd, 2017, 11:20 pm

Pretty long text, read if you have too much free time.
Spoiler:
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Lordlewis » May 23rd, 2017, 7:11 am

When is The Legend of the Invincibles going to finally work on 1.13? It doesn't work as far as I've checked, or should I get an older version of the Battle for Wesnoth? I know this might be a bit random but the Legend of the Invincibles probably won't work on any new versions.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Whiskeyjack » May 23rd, 2017, 7:59 am

Disclaimer: I haven't played Wesnoth in the last ~ month!

Lordlewis wrote:When is The Legend of the Invincibles going to finally work on 1.13? It doesn't work as far as I've checked, or should I get an older version of the Battle for Wesnoth? I know this might be a bit random but the Legend of the Invincibles probably won't work on any new versions.


AFAIK this is currently not on the horizon, it is recommended to get 1.12.6 for playing LotI currently.

About the healing stuff nerf:

I feel like suck, spell suck and absorb are ok as they are on hard difficulty. The one thing that is too easy to obtain is murderlust. This is because of the cheap and easily craftable item for it. If you need a nerf, I'd recommend making this a late game item (slightly better stats and considerably higher price), though I still see a problem with that: The early scenarios of part II are by far the hardest in the entire campaign (on hard), and the few items you can craft early on (especially a murderlust weapon for Ef and Leth) are one of the main strategies to get through this (at least for me). In later Inferno, the weapon isn't a problem anymore, as murderlust isn't that impactful vs. the stronger demons and e.g. suck(2) on a unit with lots of attacks brings a much bigger benefit. The problem is the part in between (chapters 7 and perhaps 8 ), where the cheap item on unimportant slots (like a crossbow on a melee unit) makes a huge difference IMO.

One other thing that's also kinda broken is leech on very strong magical attacks. I currently built one unit that's easily able to solo inferno and that is a Lich with DDL, strong resistances, darkening (light effects make a huge difference in inferno and I get them at least on every second unit -> free conviction (40/50) as well as leadership (40/50)...), slow immunity and conviction(20) make him incredibly tanky and he hits like a truck, meaning that at least in ranged he heals up against pretty much anything (I think the only thing that can hurt him for a couple hp are very strong arcane demons, but those are too rare and too weak to threaten him). I don't think more than (spell)suck(3) is realistically possible (most of the time you can't get more than 2) on hard without sacrificing too much resistances, but leech can get up to 6/7 heal per hit on some units easily (while on the other hand other units are never able to get it higher than 2/3...).
-> if anyone is interested I can post screenshots later, but I don't have computer access until the weekend... :D
The second unit that I have that is close to being able to solo is an Efraim (again: leech on melee, though in this case, it only gets up to 6/7 with the additional suck(3)) with double marrowwrend, but he depends upon weak enemies to heal back up on, strong demons without those could easily kill him if lucky with their trais. Luckily, most of the time hounds and/or burning souls are around aplenty, so he can at least stay alive if he doesn't facetank 10 demons for a couple turns...
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Gyndur » May 23rd, 2017, 6:28 pm

I agree with things Whiskeyjack is saying and i would also add that it is pretty much possible do make every unit solo juggernaut. But for me i think as of now meta in Inferno chapter is very differnet from rest of campaign and you actually want to have as many units there you can solo, otherwise doing all that chapter is gonna taken insane amount of time. But if youre gonna do some nerfs you also have to consider chapter 10 which i think well atleast for me it is by far the hardest of any Wesnoth content i have ever played. So cant make that chapter with item nerf too insane.
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Postby Whiskeyjack » May 24th, 2017, 10:21 am

Gyndur wrote:I agree with things Whiskeyjack is saying and i would also add that it is pretty much possible do make every unit solo juggernaut. But for me i think as of now meta in Inferno chapter is very differnet from rest of campaign and you actually want to have as many units there you can solo, otherwise doing all that chapter is gonna taken insane amount of time. But if youre gonna do some nerfs you also have to consider chapter 10 which i think well atleast for me it is by far the hardest of any Wesnoth content i have ever played. So cant make that chapter with item nerf too insane.


Oh right, I didn't even consider chapter 10, which I have not played on hard yet.

One more thing about healing/sustain I forgot to mention is the possibility of absorb stacking (absorb(1) and absorb(2) result in absorb(3)). This is not easily obtainable for every unit, but especially for those who can (e.g. Efraim and Lethalia), from the moment you can craft a Dugi's Ward onwards the unit becomes able to solo almost anything by virtue of absorb(6) alone. (and even absorb(4) or absorb(5) is broken enough...)
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles . bugtracker ? and 1.13 ?

Postby AlterAl2 » May 25th, 2017, 7:12 am

Hello

First, thank for Legend of the Invicible !

1/ Is there a bugtracker for this campain ? or only this forum ?

2/ Loading the campain on 1.13.8 (aka 1.14.beta1) via the extension interfaces , load the campain, and then just crashes wesnoth.
Is there something i can do to help fixing this?

cheers.
Last edited by AlterAl2 on May 25th, 2017, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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