Legend of the Invincibles

[fdsfsfdsjkljkl]

Also, on the python problems: no problem, I'm a huge C++ fan too. Python package installation is pretty easy on Ubuntu. Just install the python package manager (pip) then you can install tabulate using that.

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install python-pip
sudo pip install tabulate

It's up to you whether it's worth it to move the item_list into a unit_type. It would save about 1MB from the save game file size, but it would make the code more complicated. The AMLA trick works nicely because there's only one time when you actually need the AMLA list (advancing a unit). However, if the item list is used more frequently it might be annoying to have to retrieve it in a roundabout way.

You know the codebase much better than I do though, so it's really up to your preference.

[Dugi]

@dffou
That looks like a problem with the main AI, because the unit vs unit calculation should not be affected by this change. Can you please provide a save file where it can be reliably replicated?

@fdsfsfdsjkljkl
Very good. This add-on will be running much more nicely on 1.13 than on any other version. Looking forward to see it done (these forums seriously need a thumbs up smilie).

Thanks for that tip, that pip thing should help with many python programs.

The item list is not accessed on so many places, there is usually a macro to deal with that. I haven't decided yet, though.

[dffou]

@dffou
That looks like a problem with the main AI, because the unit vs unit calculation should not be affected by this change. Can you please provide a save file where it can be reliably replicated?

Here it is, just end the turn and the problem will come.

Also, there are 3 demons, two of them have furious trait, if I killed both of them by debug order, there wouldn't be any problem, and if I left one of them, problem came, if I only left the one who has chilling trait and take off Efraim's Marrowrend knife(so that the demon would attack him by infernal chill), there wouldn't be any problem neither.

[lhaire]

I noticed at the start of Apologies scenario Efraim loses all of his previous advancements and basically seems to start over again wrt experience (only other difference is that soul eater is replaced by redeem). Is this intended for this scenario? It seems such a shame for him to lose all the advancements he gained earlier

A suggestion for the item inventory - the grouping by category is great. However, how about grouping items which are the same together and put the number beside in brackets instead of listing them in the order in which they were added. For example, in armours if you have 3 mithral armours the inventory would say Mithral Armour(3) instead listing all 3 separately. I find that after I accumulate a lot of one category it's quite difficult to keep track of everything you have and how much of each you have. Another suggestion is to list the items in alphabetical order instead the order in which they were added.

P.S. highly addictive campaign! I can't even imagine going back to any other Wesnoth campaign after playing this one. And there's enough variety that you can play several times without it getting boring. Keep up the great work!

[Dugi]

Here it is, just end the turn and the problem will come.

Thanks.

I noticed at the start of Apologies scenario Efraim loses all of his previous advancements and basically seems to start over again wrt experience (only other difference is that soul eater is replaced by redeem). Is this intended for this scenario? It seems such a shame for him to lose all the advancements he gained earlier

It's intentional.

A suggestion for the item inventory - the grouping by category is great. However, how about grouping items which are the same together and put the number beside in brackets instead of listing them in the order in which they were added.

This doesn't look like a bad idea, I'll think of it. It could reduce the time needed to list the items as well.

P.S. highly addictive campaign! I can't even imagine going back to any other Wesnoth campaign after playing this one. And there's enough variety that you can play several times without it getting boring. Keep up the great work!

Thanks

[Paulomat4]

This doesn't look like a bad idea, I'll think of it. It could reduce the time needed to list the items as well.

I think that's a really nice idea. Having multiple armors from the same type was the one thing that always bugged me about the inventory.

[fdsfsfdsjkljkl]

OK, so I've got the proof of concept fully working in 1.13. Here are the pre advance and advance events necessary to implement this process:

Code: Select all

#ifver WESNOTH_VERSION >= 1.13.0
    # When a unit is about to advance, give it the AMLA it actually needs
    [event]
      name=pre advance
      first_time_only=no
      [store_unit]
        [filter]
          x,y=$x1,$y1
        [/filter]
        variable=advancing_unit
        kill=yes
      [/store_unit]
      [lua]
      code=<<
        function clear_advancements(unit)
          for i = #unit, 1, -1 do
            v = unit[i]
            if v[1] == "advancement" then
              table.remove(unit, i)
            end
          end
          return unit
        end

        unit = wesnoth.get_variable("advancing_unit")
        if unit.advances_to ~= "" then
          return
        end

        unit = clear_advancements(unit)

        local u = wesnoth.create_unit { type = "Advancing" .. unit.type }
        for i, v in ipairs(u.__cfg) do
          if v[1] == "advancement" then
            table.insert(unit, v)
          end
        end
        wesnoth.set_variable("advancing_unit", unit)
      >>
      [/lua]
      [unstore_unit]
        variable=advancing_unit
        find_vacant=no
      [/unstore_unit]
      [fire_event]
         name=advance
         [primary_unit]
           id=$advancing_unit.id
         [/primary_unit]
      [/fire_event]
    [/event]

    # After the AMLA has been selected, we need to clea the advancements which weren't selected.
    [event]
      name=advance
      first_time_only=no
      [store_unit]
        [filter]
          x,y=$x1,$y1
        [/filter]
        variable=advancing_unit
        kill=no
      [/store_unit]
      [lua]
      code=<<
        unit = wesnoth.get_variable("advancing_unit")
        unit = clear_advancements(unit)
        wesnoth.set_variable("advancing_unit", unit)
      >>
      [/lua]
      [unstore_unit]
        variable=advancing_unit
        find_vacant=no
      [/unstore_unit]
    [/event]

This system works, however there a few issues which I either haven't tested or haven't yet addressed:

1. I'm not firing a post advance event at the end of my advance event. Adding the code for this is easy, but it causes problems in the update_stats event. I don't fully understand what update_stats is doing, so I don't want to mess with it too much.
2. Right now, units are marked as being subject to the AMLA workaround based on the presence of the "Oops, something went wrong" advancement in their unit type. Previously, any unit which had that advancement would be replaced with an Advancing{TYPE} when the advance event fired. However, the new system clears out all advancements from a unit. This problem can be fixed by using a simple "uses_amla_workaround" variable in the unit_type of units which are subject to the AMLA workaround system. Advancement code can then check for that variable instead of checking for the presence of the "something went wrong" advancement.
3. The old system had a clever way of allowing units which advanced when defending to defer AMLA selection until the player turn. This system would have to be reimplemented here.

You'll probably want to tackle these issues yourself, since I'm not too familiar with how a lot of these systems function. Please let me know if you have any questions about the portion I wrote!

[Dugi]

Nice work, man!

1) How do these problems manifest? From your words, I can't tell if it happens always or just sometimes (sometimes is worse, because it's harder to replicate). Update_stats does pretty much all the stuff that is not supported normally, like most special calculations regarding effects of items, custom AMLA effects and such.
2) That "Oops, something went wrong" advancement can't be removed, you have to leave it there (then can easily rely on it being there). If it wasn't there, the advancing-related events would never fire (if something hasn't changed since my last investigation).
3) It was implemented because it was necessary, if a unit advanced via unstore_unit while it was the enemy's turn, it picked a random advancement even in singleplayer. Now it's no longer necessary as far as I know, but implementing it is easy. All that has to be done is to check if it's the player's side and if isn't, it's marked and marked units' advancements and experience are then manipulated to give the player another choice.

[Whiskeyjack]

What happened to the discussion about a general rebalance of all units? No one interested anymore?

We left at this point with Elves already done:

Spoiler:

Humans Part 1

Units up for discussion:

Duelist Wizard: High survivability. Proposing slight default resistance reduction from 60% in arcane/fire/ice to 40% in each respectively.

Destroyer: High berserk attack amount. Proposing reduction to 8 times max. May need an additional ability to make it more diverse.


Blackguard: Very Generic; needs creativity. Thinking.

Elder Mage: No changes needed

Pilum Master: No changes needed

----------------------------------------------------------
My opinion:
Green = No Modifications Needed,
Orange = Needs slight nerf
Blue = Needs improvement
.

I can not say much about Blackguard and Destroyer. Duelist Wizard felt pretty right to me, but most people see the unit as very strong so a nerf might be necessary. I would propose to only nerf the resistances to 50% not 40. Pilum Master is pretty in place in my opinion. As a level 3 it can´t compare with the other end level units, but especially in part I it´s a very interesting option to get a unit with a couple AMLAs before most of the others even reach MLA.
@Dugi: About Elder Mage: Whats the status with this unit? It was discussed to give it AMLAs to get an explosive attack for thematic reasons (combined with a damage nerf to recompensate). If this has not already happened, I would propose to add the whole explosive attack as a weaker second ranged option per AMLA (but with both increasing from the same AMLAs afterwards; I would propose something like 16-3 instead of 16-5 on the normal fireball), because I think the EM should not lose his single target fire power.

New:
Exterminator: When skilling the charging backstab and using the units own set it is quite strong, otherwise not so much. Fine in my opinion.
Shadow Prince: I think this unit could use a buff as well. At least I couldn´t make it work as I was unable to get it to a decent damage level. It might be buff enough to add a strong meele staff to the game (you can craft some very strong ones at high cost, but I think a drop would be nice - and its not like it could be abused by other staff users ). There are some that give both meele and magic, but I feel like they are a little of everything and in the end not very usefull for anything. (I think the biggest problem with the damage is not the numbers per se, but the hit chance. Only way to get marksman/magical for at least the meele attack is Konrad´s Might and that does not come with enough of a damage boost to make the unit viable - perhaps get magical for the ranged attack and/or marksman for meele per AMLA after investing some points respectively?).

Spoiler:

Not entirely sure about the item part, staves are primary mages weapons for a reason.

Dragon Rider: This unit really needs a buff in my opinion as it can´t even keep up with the better level 4 units. It suffers from not having a weapon for the bite attack, being not very strong with the charge but with doubled retaliation and a mediocre ranged attack, a leadership AMLA that would be a duke if you had wanted it. Another usefull thing might be to allow it to fly over chasms.

@Dugi:

Spoiler:

I´m still hyped about my idea from earlier, but this is probably to much work? I would be happy to contribute to this, but I have no artistic skill whatsoever and no experience with usefull programs.

Not sure if this is a viable option (with sprites and everything), but how about giving Dragon Rider only Dragon Legacies and changing the type of dragon the rider has with getting the first (Ice, Darkness, Fire - and perhaps a unique Earth one (since there are earth dragons in your campaign already) only for this unit) and thereafter getting unique paths for AMLAs [@Dugi: different from the usual legacies - I could contribute concrete ideas as well if apreciated ]? Right now I think for one of the few level 5 units you can get, this unit is way to weak. I feel like it can´t compete with most of the level 4 fighting units, if you want leadership, you take Duke and the AMLAs do not feel interesting and somehow not rewarding at all. In part I it´s still a strong unit because you do not get that far AML, but I stopped using it in part II altogether, because with a lot of AMLAs other units seemed considerably stronger (Elvish fighting units, Celestial Messengers, Dwarvish units, some of the human fighting units, mages).

When I imagine a dragon rider I think of a beast right in the center of the fighting wrecking whole lines of enemies and standing strong where normal warriors falter.

PS: If I annoy you with all my ideas (especially for the dragon rider) Dugi, please say so. I love your campaign and all the awesome stuff you build and it always gets me thinking about new possibilities, but I do not want to be a pain in the neck if you feel its to much.

[Dugi]

I am not annoyed by your ideas. I don't know why the discussion about units' balance faded, I noticed it too but didn't take any action yet.

Regarding the balance, I don't have much to say, (warning: honest admission ahead) you are much closer to the gameplay as I am, I am working on something else and much of this campaign was significantly different when I was playing it last time. All I know is that there is a staff for Shadow Prince, it is strongly melee oriented. Your input seems valid to me, but it's very possible that there are errors I haven't noticed. I shall wait for input from more people and then I will do the changes. If you want it faster, you can PM them

With the Dragon Rider, yes, I know the suggestion, but I think that I'd rather let him have all the legacies. Doing that should not be hard, just adding a check that if a a unit is a Dragon Rider and its AMLA containing 'legacy' doesn't contain 'dragon', it should be replaced by one containing 'dragon'. Unique unit-specific legacies don't look like a very good idea to me, only very little units would come to them. Of course, I don't disagree with the idea that Dragon Rider should be boosted somehow. Maybe giving him a low damage breath attack with the hose weapon special would be make him unique enough.

[chyn]

Well... I've recently finished your great campain, which is highly addictive and mostly too awesome to desribe. But, there are some things. I belivie most, or all of them already was mentioned in this forum, but I don't have the balls to read it all
Items: There's so many of them, I can't even. It's probably good, because of the variability of units, but it's quite unpleasant when you are waiting for the last item to your set and still nothing. In the second part I wainted for scepter of the kings or heart of ice for at least half of a game, and destruction set (dark gloves, dark sword etc) wasn't completed in all second part... I was thinking about crafting. That's a nice idea, but why you cannot craft items, which you can normally drop? Maybe the possibility of crafting things I need to complete the set, or crafting whatever should fix this thing. Otherwise, I didn't find crafting really usefull. Sometimes I built something, mostly purity armor to change my "bad guys" into lawful fuckers with illumination. And the thing with black pearl. It's so damn rare I didn't have any in first part of campain. In second part I was able to build Dugi's ward in last chapter... (and I don't find the armor so damn epic to be so damn rare.)
Also it's really anoying when you're dropping axes all the time, but you don't have any unit's which is using axes, or xbow is really favourite one too. why so many xbows?
I'm still thinking about dropping just the gems, and crafting everything. Or dropping just some more rare weapons. You know, you don't need 5 polearms, 6 axes and 4 xbows when you are in need of swords, or maces, etc...
Units That was the best part of the game. New units, leveling after last level, so damn amazing. But some units are really lame. which is same. You should think of little balance for example, almost all elven units on 4th level are lame. (except elvish overlord and faeri incarnation, that unit is awesome ) try to compare elvish assasin with dwarven technocrat. Give the dwarf some items for more attacks and elvish assasin can go teach in kindergarden or something
Huamns? well, thats better than elves, but still some units lame. usable are fencers (maybe that sword mages, but you can give away theirs antisocial trait, they are not so great to be handicaped) really great are destroyers or black guards (I prefer destroyers, they're naturally lawful) maybe Archer with good gear is not so bad. not good, not bad, just ok. When i take a look at outlaws, I would pick shadow prince as the best one. But still not good one. Rogues just maybe. And the rest is so lame I prefet not to talk about it
All the swordmans, elven juggernauts, elven captains etc. I don't find them good. The best one is Duke, than Dragon rider (but he really needs more items, mabye "claws" usable for bite attack too? and he should be able to somehow increase his breath attack with items, otherwise it's not really good and you have to spend lot of levels just to make it usable)
Orcish unit's are kindy ok. I guess. there wasn't much opportunities to try them. Most of all I was using the orcish assasin, but there was some bug with him, 'cos when I put some throwing knives to him, he wasn't using them crosbow guy is good, much better than human, or elven archers. And trolls are good. When you exp them enough to regenerate 24HP per turn, not bad
Undead unit lame. Like really. All the [censored] demons or whatever can kill any undead because of their vulnerabilities. Only one good unit is arch-necromancer. Or maybe Lich if you give him enough items to make it at least to 0% vulnerability
dwarvish units rulez. Definitely. As I mentioned earlier, Dvarwish technocrat is probably the most badass unit. Than dwarven battlerager - this guy with little equip and few levels is undestructible. And dwarven protector. With good gear maybe dwarven destructor, 'cos no one can stop him with his defenses and awesome attack due to items...
well.. that's probably all for the units.

Soul eater/redeem
great idea, but I have one little advice. What if you can get some improvement when you reach Soul eater/redeem level, rather than next possibility of improvement when level up? For example, when you get "arcane defense" in redeem, you would instantly get some improvement to arcane defense, rather than waiting for next level to get it. Also spiritual transformation is not so good, as description say I expeted something... more badass... So is particle storm. Not really good. Actually I used spiritual transformation only when i needed to hit arcane (or what type it was, i cant remember) and there wasnt really good time to use particle storm, hitting with sword was better.
I'm not sure, if it's because i make it somehow (wrong items, wrong leveling, etc) but I found Efraim much more powerful than Lethalie. In both campains...

Game itself
I found the story line really catchy. I played this thing everyday for almost one month. (wow) Maybe i missed more connection to original wesnoth, especially in first campain. It was so awesome when i met princess Ashenviere, and help her to get the throne, so I was thinking why there is not more connection like this one? (I know it's kindy too late to change this, just saying my hints from the game)
So the game for really cool until Akula came. It was my first WTF moment in the game. I have nothing against the tentacles porn in late 5th chapter, but. Why the [censored] i have to summon all the [censored] lvl0, lvl1, etc minions, just to reach my elite-specialist-comando of world-saving? It was really annoying. And when I reach them and set the automatic recall in Akula's chambers, then the game started to get boring. Just come into map, kill everything and spent most of the time just by walking. And that's the same in 9th chapter - in inferno (which was much worse, much more walking, much more boring).
How to fix it? MAybe set the autorecall with less unit, something like 5 or 10 should be really enough (moving all 22 units is worse than boring...), or remake this chapters at all. I would go with this possibility. Set some cool missions, with lots of enemies everywhere but diferent type of goal, not "go there and go there" all the time.
Also, when I encoutered the Tentacles freaks I also encountered Lua error for the first time.

On the other hand. I'm really happy with the mighty spells which Letha+Efraim had in chapter 5. Love them.

Then the campain 2 appeard. Well... It was too much. I'm really sorry to say that, but I had to erase my memories of reaching the tower of *badgirl* Lethalia. I found this part of game really unnecesary and rather boring. The only thing is which came from this part is Vritra. Also, when Efraim and Lethalia stuck in inferno, I would expect some armageddon from Vritra, if we consider her nature...
I already mentioned chapter 9. In my opinion it's the worst chapter you have made. Sorry to say that... Yeah, there was some great plot-twist in the end, but the rest was just unnecesary torture of players... Also I found Lilith bugged, every time she was about to attack this error appeard and she wasn't attacking at all... just moving and defending herself

lilith

It's the same jsut like Akula's place. Less soldiers in autorecall, or remake it with cool mission etc... I think this is not playable. (but still great idea how to make it different)

Last scenario was nearly the easiest scenario in the game. Like really, there is world saving attempt and I am even able to kill black souls leader? They should siege me hard, and I was there, blocking tham like nothing...

Well...
1) Less items/make them craftable/drop only high value artifacts
2) Balance units (thats really hard part, I know but still...)
3) Soul eater/redeem -> instaneous improvement rather than wait for level. Otherwise it's in my opinion useless
4) chapter 5 and chapter 9 improvement -> these two were really annoying/boring/torturing me...

Sorry for such long post, but at least your game forced me to make account and write it (which is compliment, wierd one but compliment) Your game is still great with so much heart touching moments and so much moments of great adventure. Thank you random citizen for your job. Thank you for spending one month on computer because of your campain (even though I have to study for my finals )

[Dugi]

@chyn
items - it's intentional that sets aren't easy to complete, their overall bonuses are usually strong and outbalanced by the difficulty to get all the items for it. Crafting was not meant to be a way to obtain items you want to find, rather like a way to provide some specific bonuses to units when you don't have items for it. Axes are not so common, they are less common than swords or armours, you just can't make much use of them because you don't like undead units (so it might be a problem of undead units). Similar thing for crossbows. There is only one droppable polearm, otherwise you can get them only from crafting. Reducing the number of crappy items - you can always smash them to get gems, no?
units - a rebalance of units' AMLA is being discussed in these days, your input confirms what others have told. These issues will be addressed, don't worry.
soul eater/redeem - making top soul eater and redeem AMLA more badass - okay, this was suggested before, seems it has more proponents. I think that it's not necessary to give instant bonuses for advancing redeem or soul eater, you get AMLA every time you level up and the units are strong enough already.
story - the first chapter had no relation with mainline, just third, fourth and fifth. Maybe that Akula surprise ghost onslaught could be changed somehow, but remember that she needs some minions, without them she would be pretty easy. Reducing armies' size in chapters 5 and 9 could be done, but I think that even 10 might be too much reduction. This will need further discussion. Regarding your dislike for parts of part II, well, I am not gonna rewrite everything there.
lua errors - they are being dealt with, I was reported them already, although your reports contain some additional information.
least scenario too easy - I've been making the black souls stronger quite recently, giving them lethargy weapon special, currently it's not as powerful as it's intended to be because of a bug, my current version has it already fixed; if you could give me the save file from the start of the scenario (LotI2-End_of_the_World.gz), I'd be able to check how much harder they became and if their count needs to be increased
finals - they await me too, finals, graduation finals, PhD admission examination,...

Others, what do you think about chyn's suggestions?

[Whiskeyjack]

1) Less items/make them craftable/drop only high value artifacts

I do not think this nessecary. In the beginning of both parts the randomness can get you somewhat (had a lot of crossbows myself), but you always get enough to play your game. Regarding the sets: I had to wait for the last items of some sets very long to, but I think the drop chances are very well placed here. Shouldn´t be easier to get the sets. By now, I have every set except the Pale Rider one full and some more than once, but I am very patiently farming all my enemies.

2) Balance units (thats really hard part, I know but still...)

See my last post to start participating...

3) Soul eater/redeem -> instaneous improvement rather than wait for level. Otherwise it's in my opinion useless

Not sure about this one. Its the way to distinguish Leth and Eph from their "mortal" (not so much) followers but in power on the battle field it never really shows. I agree that Leth is considerably weaker in part II. In part I she was a lot stronger than Eph on offense but also more vulnerable to enemies attacks. But that has to do with me playing Leth as a mage and Eph as a fighter. But I think all of this lies with the myrriad possibilities to skill and equip the two and only people like dabber who have played the campaign multiple times can even hope to give an accurate assessment of their power status.
I have to confess I was rather annoyed once I realized I had to decide between so many awesome options, as I could never hope to take even half of them.

4) chapter 5 and chapter 9 improvement -> these two were really annoying/boring/torturing me...

I agree somewhat that the Akula part was a pain because it dragged so long (I cleared all rooms anyway). Inferno on the other hand... perhaps a shortcut for people who just want to play through the campaign would be nice (since it reaaaaally drags), but I always saw it as a playground to experiment with all the different units and items and AMLAs and there is no better part in the campaign for this. (it would be nice if Orcs, Trolls and so on would be available in part II to be available for this, but debug can do the job otherwise...)
I do not know why, but jungle hell and that desert scenario combined hit me harder than all of Akulas cavern or Inferno (the only part of the campaign I really hated ).

[chyn]

Ok, I was thinking about it during the day and you are probably right about the items. Sometimes it's pain, but on the other hand it belongs to the game and it's allright - otherwise it'll be too easy. So sorry for that

I don't think we understoot each other with Akula topic. I mean, that you have to use one of the powerfull spells usable once per scenario to summon your previous leveled units. But I have summoned some lvl1 crap first, and had to go from map to map just to recharge powerfull spell to get my leveled units. Maybe, if you put some castle in the begining of Akula's cave and unlock the possibilty of summoning previously leveled units there, it'll be ok then. (Just like in inferno part, where you can summon your units and then put them in autorecall list)

I believe that 10 units in autorecall is really enough, 'cos it's enough to siege some castle. Look at Efraim or Lethalia, they are able to crush castles themself, and with support of small amount of units it should be really ok. And if you need more, you can still summon more from sieged castle
Additionaly, you don't need so many units, because you are not limited with time.

Also I remember, When you reach Uria in front of the entrance to her lair, Uria have to kill some of my units or something like that, to let Lilith appeard. But first time I killed her without any problems, so Lilith didn't come and I was really lost.
And with this scenario, It'll be nice to place some great battle here, maybe even the demon-rebels can come and fight too. Or at least more enemy players.

I agree that especially "jungle hell" scenario was really challanging. This one was cool

I don't think you have to make Black souls super-uber-powerful. Just little stronger and more of them
anyway, there is my save:

LotI2-End_of_the_World.gz

End_of_the_world

(425.53 KiB) Downloaded 153 times

(I hope it's the right file)

Good luck with you Phd

[Dugi]

I am planning to order the recalling of units in Akula's dungeon to recall the units with the highest level first.

I wonder what do the others say about limiting the number of autorecalled units to 10.

Strange, how did you kill her? It should be impossible to kill her, she always heals when you hit her, no? Lilith is supposed to come a few turns after realising that you can't damage Uria.
I think that placing the rebels there would not be good, allies in battles are rather annoying as far as I know and they are supposed not to be your allies, because you are the invader and they don't fight you because they profit from your presence.

I'll see what can be done to adjust the difficulty of that scenario.