Legend of the Invincibles

[Aevyn]

I like Intoxicator, but it doesn't slow ranged?

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly, you're mistaken. Intoxicator does add the slow modifier to ranged weapons (and poison as well for that matter).

[dabber]

Aevyn, all that analysis of the Nightprowler is accurate, but most of that is not relevant to the unit value because others units can do the exact same thing. Other than Berserk shot for more Suck, a Juggernaut (or any other elf) gets the same benefits from the same combinations. The only thing the Nightprowler does differently is invisibility, and you didn't address why that is super valuable.

[nuorc]

Intoxicator does add the slow modifier to ranged weapons (and poison as well for that matter).

Ah, you're right. Once again I did not realize everything I looked at was a 'spell' (eg the Dragon Rider's fire breath).

[dabber]

I've figured out why Whirlwind is not doing the correct damage to secondary targets. The same bug should exist with all other area damage specials. And I have no idea how to fix it.

The problem is the damage dealing logic needs to know the unresisted damage of the attack, so it can "hit" the other units with the same thing. To calculate that, it takes the damage_inflicted (Wesnoth variable showing actual hitpoints removed from primary target) and divides it by the resistance of the primary target. Perfectly logical. It gets the resistance of the primary target from second_unit.resistance.$weapon.type, which is logically correct. Except that variable holds the BASE resistance of the target, not the current resistance. If the resistance of the primary target has been modified (such as Conviction or resistance penetrations), that variable is not useful.

[Dugi]

@dabber
I think that fixing that issue without expanding the WML code with lua is impossible. Custom tags make the code counter-intuitive, but I think that if it was used just once with a few warnings around, it should work.

You guys have a nice discussion around it, when you come to some conclusions, I will do the changes.

[Aevyn]

Aevyn, all that analysis of the Nightprowler is accurate, but most of that is not relevant to the unit value because others units can do the exact same thing. Other than Berserk shot for more Suck, a Juggernaut (or any other elf) gets the same benefits from the same combinations. The only thing the Nightprowler does differently is invisibility, and you didn't address why that is super valuable.

Summary: I think everyone is underestimating the power of berserk shot and it's net damage output in a short amount of time, with short cost. With it, nightprowler can kill practically anything in 1 turn while suffering minimal net damage.... in addition to being proficient in melee (and backstab) and being invisible. Juggernaut can't do this. No other non-essential unit can do this.

Consider: What's special about marrowrend, something I forgot to type in the previous post, is that it provides "anger" (Another crafted low cost weapon does that as well). Skipping math, it can attack 60 times in one turn excluding attack amount increasers from gear. Whatever unit is the target, whether normal or a boss, *will* die (even with just the normal "Anger" weapon) if correctly equipped. With the right modifiers you can take little damage back (and as I mentioned before, actually regain health). Furthermore there are modifers which increase damage with each hit and if that's not enough, lets not forget the "X chance to deal a devastating blow" on some items.

[EDIT] If it were me, I'd lower the NIghtprowler's berserk from (3) to (2). Furthermore I'd reduce it's max bow hits from amla to 6 (from the current 7). Those are pretty modest changes, in my opinion. Especially if berserk shot isn't a big deal for most people here anyway.

****Being invisible may not be as attractive to some, but I personally would think it's fun to equip guerilla and deflector of light and then pick off cpu units while they ignore me.

[Xargon]

Okay, it seems that Nightprowler simply gets AMLAs which are a lot better than those of other units, is that right? As I mentioned, my optinion on it was not well-grounded since I never leveled one. Many units get rather uninteresting AMLAs, so I did not expect that big of a difference here... imho, it looks like a unit that can get very strong on the offense with berserk shot and also a more than decent melee attack. The only problem is its resistances, but that's similar for all Elven units.

[Aevyn]

It's tiring for everyone to read/write essays of text during in depth discussions. Attached is a save file comparing damage output among units. Clear labels are included. 50+ of all gems included.

I used it to compare nightprowler damage output with other units. This is what I'll do in the future for balancing discussions in general.

[NicolasToulouse]

Hi Dugi, hi everyone,
I come accross the issue of Efraim not being invisible in woods in the scenario "Investigations". I understand the bug has been fixed in the updated version. Is there a way not to lose my advancement of the campaign and play with the updated version with the bug fixed, or do I have to start all over?
Thanks for your help,
Nicolas

[Raijer]

I'm not absolutely sure, but i think starting from the scenario just before "Investigations" should fix it for "Investigations".

[Mjames]

I didn't want to wade through hundreds of pages of comments to see if my comments were covered or not, but I have just finished the campaign. I think it was on one the most fun games I have ever played, and beats any other Wesnoth campaigns. The comments I have are about the crafting system. Many of the top gems are so rare, I wish there was a way to trade lower gems for higher gems. I also would like to have seen items that fit all the characters ie guns for the gunners. I noticed that some units like the mages of light could keep their staffs with the benefits, after transitioning to the next class, thus it was like they had two weapons. Lastly, what is next, I was kind of hoping for an endless campaign, at the end of chapter ten, like in nine, where the heroes are doomed to fight endless hordes of black souls. I just thought the end was a little lackluster, and anti-climatic.

[Aevyn]

--------------------------------
Bug: While testing, I found that physical resistance bonuses from armor will give half their intended value to impact resistance. The save from my last post can be used to confirm.
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Final Suggestions for Elf Race Balancing

Nightprowler: Reduce the Fury attack which uses Lesser Berserk 3 to Lesser Berserk 2. Reduce max bow hits from amla from 7 to 6 (This should also apply to Fury).

Juggernaut: Expand max amla sword hits from 6 to 7. Add AMLA for +8 regeneration

Elvish Overlord: Enable staff usage. Remove / Replace the two forest hiding amlas with one for Damage Aura(10) and one for +8 healing. Increase arcane resistance to 20%.

Elvish Seer: Change arcane resistance to 40%. Add Arcane resistance penetration amlas.(Consider allowing movement throughout unwalkable hexes as Lethalia does --- they have wings)

Elvish Assassin: Fine as is.

Gryphon Rider: Fine as is

Faerie Incarnation: Fine as is.

Elvish Warlord: Fine as is.

I believe each these changes would somewhat decrease the disparity between elf units and other popular units. I thought of everything with the background of each unit type in mind.

[Dugi]

Does anybody disagree with Aevyn's conclusions?
_________________
@Mjames
There is a way to trade lower gems to higher ones, you can trade lower gems for newly randomised ones. The transmute gems option in crafting does it.

Isn't it obvious which ones can use which items? If the unit has a sword, it can use sword, if it has a gun, it can use guns, the only exception are staves which can be used by any spellcaster unit.

Warning, story spoiler:

What's your problem about that ending? The protatognists end in a target-rich environment just for them to enjoy and everybody else gets a new world to lie in.

It will be a perfect place for us. Only you, me, and an endless supply of enemies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-mS8TLWA_E

[nuorc]

Does anybody disagree with Aevyn's conclusions?

I don't, but honestly I can't really judge it.

I just can say that in my current multi-ethnic posse I just use Gryphon Riders and Faerie Incarnations, all others just stay home on my recall list. But it could have to do with coincidence (available equipment), the current breed of enemies and me not giving enough love to the other elves.

Bug: While testing, I found that physical resistance bonuses from armor will give half their intended value to impact resistance.

I believe it's not a bug, but Dugi's decision; because ~'historically impact was used to break through armour'.

Spoiler:

If I knew how to search in pns I would've given you the actual quote...

Anybody else here feel like dwarves should maybe get ~2 more 'faster' AMLAs?

[Whiskeyjack]

Juggernaut: Expand max amla sword hits from 6 to 7. Add AMLA for +8 regeneration

Can you explain the thought behind the regeneration (not against it, just curious).

I still think that Faerie Incarnation should be nerfed down to +32 healing. It would still have double the healing of everyone else, but getting heavily damaged units back in the fight would be somewhat harder.