Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these crafting recipes you are using or planning to use? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

The End of All that Is
2
6%
Gloombringer
1
3%
Soul Eclipse
3
9%
Guerilla
2
6%
Scaryface
5
16%
Thundering Revenge
2
6%
Marie Byrd
3
9%
Marrowrend
8
25%
Deathblade Inheritance
0
No votes
Soul Render
6
19%
 
Total votes: 32

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 15th, 2019, 4:15 pm

white_haired_uncle wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 3:39 pm
I don't think I really understand the penetration value. My assumption is it's the same as "reduces enemy resistances"? Anyway, in the attached, Tadae-lorad (36.61 in the autosave) levels up and I choose 'breathing fire faster / better fire penetration'. I don't see the fire penetration attribute change. 3.2.4.78.g2a1e4f5.

This may not be a LOTI specific question, but while I'm thinking about it, where does lightning fit in with resistance/penetration?
As you say, penetration reduces the resistances of enemies for the amount shown and stacks additively (if it wasn't changed recently). However, this interacts in a somewhat obscure fashion with things like resistance penetrating aura's and stuff, as only one of the values will apply and, if it wasn't fixed recently, this might not always be the highest value...

Example: a unit has 20% fire resistance. You equip an item with 10 fire penetration. Your unit will now deal damage to the enemy as if they had 10% fire resistance.

Lightning basically equals true damage. It is a seventh damage type for which no one has resistances so your attack deals exactly the damage it displays. This is usually stronger than other types of damage, however, if you stack enough penetration (craziest unit is possibly the Elvish Seer with Dark Dragon Legacy stacking arcane penetration items), you can move the enemy resistance into the negative, actively increasing your damage output. This is not possible with lightning. I usually combine it with units that can get high damage values but struggle to get resistance penetration (e.g., hammer attacks, units with a lot of sword/arrow hits). Note, that IIRC lightning does not work with suck but does so with leech, which makes it more usefull on heavy hitters than on units with a lot of attacks (because those profit more from suck...).

Edit: To more clearly differentiate penetration from reduction auras: reduction auras reduce the resistances of all adjacent enemies while they are next to the unit, penetration only of the combat opponent of the unit while in combat. So one benefits all your troops, the other doesn't. Also, as said before, they do not stack and do not always choose the best option for you.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle » February 16th, 2019, 12:35 am

Thanks for the descriptions, whiskeyjack.

In the attached game save...
Spoiler:
After the dialog, I got an invalid WML error which can be seen at the end of the log.

3.2.4.103.g5eb154d
Attachments
LotI2-Execrable Sanctum-Auto-Save5.gz
(768.06 KiB) Downloaded 62 times
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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bughunter
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by bughunter » February 16th, 2019, 1:15 am

Is there another thread for LotI player tips and AMLA build specs and gear reviews, etc, or is this it? (Just don't want to be off topic)
"Is this going to be a stand up fight, sir, or just another bug hunt?"
--Pvt Hudson (Aliens)

dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber » February 16th, 2019, 4:47 pm

bughunter, there are some links in the first post to wiki pages that cover some of those things. But the entries I see (ex Deadly Units) are from a long time ago, some of those builds are not as powerful anymore (for good reason).

Bish09
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Bish09 » February 17th, 2019, 8:19 pm

I am relativly new to this campaign, and i have a few questions. i am on Chapter 2 and having issues.
1. How am i meant to deal with enemy units who have values higher than my heros? the scenario in which you enter the temple had several units like this, such as a 12-6 grand marshal and a 12-7 elvish marksman. these units can wipe the floor with even my lvl 4 AMLA'd and geared units. how do i win?
2. the bosses. WTF. I killed bezulbub through sheer time, XP grinding elfrim to 5x berserk, and a faerie incarnation to -40 arcane aura to make faerie fire work better. but now i am up against Umbra as lillths avater, and he has an AOE that kills most of my lvl 3 units, or at least cripples them, and single target attacks that can instakill even my elites (lvl 4, AMLA'd and geared, mostly elvish troops).
3. how can i get the kind of damage levels you are all talking about? Lethalia has a 10-7 faerie fire and elfrim has a 10-4 with 5x beserk as their best attacks, and i skill cant even scratch the bosses without dogpiling them for 5 turns and hoping they target the cannon fodder.

this all pretty much sums up to "am i playing this right?". is it due to not having gained enough XP earlier? is it items? are some advancements the key to all power?

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 17th, 2019, 8:48 pm

Bish09 wrote:
February 17th, 2019, 8:19 pm
...
What difficulty are you playing on? ;)
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

Bish09
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Bish09 » February 17th, 2019, 9:00 pm

Not ashamed to say it, Easy.

white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle » February 17th, 2019, 9:32 pm

bish09,

I'm not very good, and I don't know if I am playing it right, but I have a few comments based on your questions. I do suspect there is no "right" way, it's probably more about matching your play style to how you gear and level units.

In part one, I level the heck out of my heroes. It gets to the point where Efraim is basically unhittable, and if he does get hit he just drains, absorbs, and then regenerates. Along the way, he'll get in trouble a few times and I'll end up using a healing potion. I'm not sure if it is intended to, but with the healing potion the extra 10 HP seems to be preserved even when you level up, so my heroes (and other crucial units I refuse to lose) end up with lots of HP. I combine this with as much regeneration and healing as I can for pretty much all my units (I don't like to micromanage too much, if tons of units are healers the odds that a damaged unit is next to a healer is pretty good).

I also tend to stick with a core of supporting units, with a combination of abilities (some healers, a couple nightstalk/ambush, etc), and then use fodder when necessary. By the end, I don't have many level 2 units, I have a dozen or so level 4 and many subsequent advances. This is where I wonder about my play style. Last time I finished part one, I had hundreds of pieces of gear in storage. It's nice to have all that stuff, for example I always like to have a woodland cloak (ambush) handy for the rare case when I just want to sneak my hero through the woods to get to the goal. But that's also a lot of gear that's sitting around doing nothing.

As far as damage levels, IMO it's about combinations of gear (and natural abilities), and a little about advancements. There's some examples of "boss killers" on a link in the first page of this thread. My personal go to right now is a scythemaster with a powerful scythe, marksman (Konrad's Might) or charge (Widowmaker), penetrate, and as many items to boost the number of melee attacks as possible. This guy can do hundreds of damage to multiple units (including flies!) and then step out of the way to avoid damage and allow another unit to attack -- and he takes no retaliation during a whirlwind attack. He also gets a book to allow some sort of ranged attack, because I hate being hit without retaliating (not critical to the boss killer concept, just a thing I have). I also like a good grand knight or paladin with marksman (at least) and lots of attacks, but when going after a "boss" I always want to have him slowed first (actually, I pretty much always use my female hero to slow/poison a boss at the beginning of each turn to reduce retaliation and negate regeneration[1]). There's also "devastating blow" which I though was supposed to be a small chance for an instant kill (can't find it on the abilities page), which might be nice combined with many attacks, but I've never seen it happen.

[1] I'm thinking I may be doing this wrong. If I make sure she has frozen aura, dark aura, and probably burns foes (love that one!), I wouldn't have to waste her powerful attack potential just to get a slow/poison. I think I may try taking a unit with a lot of HP, craft mastodon boots/gloves/helm and maybe armor, add dark/frozen auras and burns, plus powerful healing if possible and create the ultimate front line unit -- ignore the other weapon specials, the unit IS the weapon.
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

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edwardspec
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by edwardspec » February 18th, 2019, 5:00 am

Bish09 wrote:
February 17th, 2019, 8:19 pm
I am relativly new to this campaign, and i have a few questions. i am on Chapter 2 and having issues.
1. How am i meant to deal with enemy units who have values higher than my heros? the scenario in which you enter the temple had several units like this, such as a 12-6 grand marshal and a 12-7 elvish marksman. these units can wipe the floor with even my lvl 4 AMLA'd and geared units. how do i win?
Obviously regular humans can't hold their ground against a supernatural being.
They can, however, pack a punch and then be left behind the lines to be healed in safety, while your heroes (who can become very resilient, given how many protection items are there in the game - absorbs, drains, weapon suck, spell suck, murderlust, leaches, regeneration, defensive attacks like Lethalia's staff and spiderweb, etc.) are protecting them.
Bish09 wrote:
February 17th, 2019, 8:19 pm
2. the bosses. WTF. I killed bezulbub through sheer time, XP grinding elfrim to 5x berserk, and a faerie incarnation to -40 arcane aura to make faerie fire work better. but now i am up against Umbra as lillths avater, and he has an AOE that kills most of my lvl 3 units, or at least cripples them, and single target attacks that can instakill even my elites (lvl 4, AMLA'd and geared, mostly elvish troops).
Beelzebub is supposed to be immensely powerful and won't necessarily be defeatable at the earliest point where he can be summoned.
However, if you skip the monolith, you can summon him later, as many maps have monoliths and Beelzebub keeps following the heroes if you refuse. He is overpowered in Chapter 1, but becomes more manageable later. Being nuked with bug bites is how he gets defeated.

Umbra should be taken out by your heroes. Other units can shortly hold him off if heroes are in trouble.

Also, as with any boss battles, the location is important. E.g. Umbra's temple has some narrow passages where the enemies (no matter how numerous or powerful) can only target 1 of your units per turn.

Another important thing in boss battles are the potions (common mistake is to greedily accumulate them instead of using them...) that can benefit your heroes (not only healing potions - Spirits of a Madman's Alacrity, Potion of Mundanity, Creepy Potion, Otherworldy Cinders, etc. are super useful). They are not that necessary against enemy peons, and you'll find more before the next boss battle, so use them a lot.
3. how can i get the kind of damage levels you are all talking about? Lethalia has a 10-7 faerie fire and elfrim has a 10-4 with 5x beserk as their best attacks, and i skill cant even scratch the bosses without dogpiling them for 5 turns and hoping they target the cannon fodder.
Preserved Liches have soul eater advancements, they are more potent than the basic attacks like "faerie fire".
E.g. Fireball can be up to 12-7 (this is basic damage, before any bonuses from items are applied) with "guided" (guaranteed 90% chance to hit) and "explosive" specials.
That being said, if your heroes amass defensive advancements like Regeneration and Absorbs instead, they may take considerable beating and you'll end up hoping that the enemies target your heroes and not your other units.

Also note that less damaging attack can sometimes be preferable to high-damage attack. E.g. Lethalia's spiderweb can have drain, slow and firststrike - nothing like throwing her alone into a crowd of powerful enemy archers and seeing her take 0 damage.
On the other hand, faerie fire can be really deadly if you don't remove the "swarm" special from it.

white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle » February 18th, 2019, 3:53 pm

On the updated unit information:

1) Terraind > Terrain

2) Resist/Pen values missing

3) Terrain/Move values under Resist/Pen

4) I was going to say that lesser redeem was missing. I looked for it after I got my first one and I didn't see anything. But now I do. Odd.

5) I don't think this is new, but when Efraim switches from soul eater to redeem, he still shows a soul eater score.


I'd like to see back/exit options throughout most of the item menu screens. For example, once I go to item storage I can browse the various items but I can't go back and view unit information without exiting and entering item menu again. Often at the beginning of a scenario I will rebalance my unit gear and I'll find myself opening the items menu several times for a single unit.

EDIT: According to help, Arch Necromancer advances from Necromancer which advances from Necromancer.
Attachments
LotI2-Trolls-Auto-Save1.gz
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Last edited by white_haired_uncle on February 18th, 2019, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

dabber
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber » February 18th, 2019, 4:58 pm

Bish09, when the enemy is super nasty, plan your attack.
1. Passive buffs on your units (Leadership, Shield, Legacy of Kings, Tome of Bards, illumination, etc).
2. Passive debuffs on the enemy (Despair, Conviction, Frail Tide, penetrations, illumination).
3. Slow the enemy somehow. Slow aura is useful, distant attack with slow is awesome, AoE slow against another enemy, or just send in someone with a slow attack to get one hit.
4. Debuff the enemy via special attacks - doom, trickery, mayhem.
5. Look at enemy resistances and pick a damage type that hurts him more.
6. Look at enemy attacks and adjust equipment so you resist what you get hit by better. Or melee attack and maximize your dodge.


I have only played part 2 recently, so my units and equipment are more powerful, but I normally I kill Beezlebub in one round.
0. Don't touch the monolith until you have it surrounded and ready to mass attack.
1. I have two or three buffing units (Duke, Celestial Messenger with Legacy of Kings).
2. Maybe someone with Despair stands next to enemy.
3. A Duelist wizard attacks to slow. He has high inate resistance to elemental damage, so buffs and equipment easily maxes out his resistance.
4. A Swordmaster attacks with his doom attack (ideally with Stormrend sword for trickery and lightning damage, and with berserk helm). Struggle plus equipment and amlas for extra dodge means he is only hit by 10% of enemy attacks, so he is pretty much safe. Trickery and doom mean the enemy is easy for everyone else to wreck if the Swordmaster doesn't finish him.

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 18th, 2019, 10:31 pm

I wanted to write a reply yesterday, but then my internet connection gave out on me...

dabber already brought some great points to the table, so I'll only complement a few long-term aspects:
  • Power curve. With the amount of items, there simply is luck involved - I had a start to chapter one a couple months back, where I got a unit with highlander trait and two or three very powerful items (for this unit and my heroes) in the first two scenarios, which made the first ~ten scenarios free. This leads to snowballing as you can more easily accrue experience and items (the more enemies you kill, the more you will have of both). On the other hand, if you have bad item drops and are not effectively funneling experience for whatever reason this can go the opposite way and early chapters become more difficult. Ironically, this is at its worst on easy difficulty, as enemies will have less gold and you will, therefore, have less chances to gather experience. Without significantly lucky drops I found medium to actually be easier than easy early on because of this (once you get some item combinations and AMLAs this reverses as items are stronger and enemies weaker on easy).
  • Experience management. I also want to reemphasize the point of experience funneling. Losing units that wear items, having too many units among which you split experience, or wasting last hits on units you do not plan to advance (e.g., "cannon fodder") can all set you behind on the power curve considerably (if they accumulate). With the extensive AMLA system in LotI, experience management works a whole lot differently than in other Wesnoth campaigns. Again: Once you have a few well-equipped and AMLA'd units that can protect your other units this point somewhat becomes moot, but early on it is important to consider.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

white_haired_uncle
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle » February 19th, 2019, 1:00 am

Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Lightning basically equals true damage. It is a seventh damage type for which no one has resistances so your attack deals exactly the damage it displays.
It looks like that is true in the general sense, but I did find an exception in LOTI. In the attached, if you attack the succubus at 31.17 with the duelist wizard at 27.19 it appears that the despair ability applies to lightning.
Attachments
LotI2-Miracle-Auto-Save6.gz
(869.96 KiB) Downloaded 63 times
WARNING: I suck at BFW, I'm usually barely paying attention, and I often like to try stupid things just to see what happens. Then I cheat. Watching my replays is known to the State of California to cause permanent mental injury.

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack » February 19th, 2019, 11:52 am

Oh, right. Sorry, my use of "true damage" might have been misleading here - all effects that work exclusively on the damage number (so % reduced and increased damage, time of day, etc.) and have nothing to do with damage type still work with lightning. Only Resistance multipliers (resistance, penetration etc.) don't apply.
Under blood-red skies an old man sits in the ruins of Carthage contemplating prophecy.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi » February 19th, 2019, 10:29 pm

StellarStar wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 1:50 pm
I got <Lua> Repeated [endlevel] execution, ignoring again after I killed Akula in We walk in the shadows
There is no practical way to address these errors all at once. I have fixed this one, but I can't assure more of them won't appear. This is just a harmless thing that started showing an error message.
StellarStar wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 1:50 pm
Also I guess the units that you recall in chapter 4 will not be able to be summoned again in chapter 5. Why is it that some level 3 units can be recalled instead of some level 4 units? What are the criterias?
No, you can recall any, it's just random.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 3:39 pm
We have dosbox for Linux. We also have KVM/libvirtd and any Linux user that doesn't take advantage of that is missing out IMO.
I know, but those things are rather impractical. Virtualisation doesn't work with video cards unless some complicated and impractical tricks are used. Just let it be, I don't have much time for games lately anyway.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
February 15th, 2019, 3:39 pm
This may not be a LOTI specific question, but while I'm thinking about it, where does lightning fit in with resistance/penetration?
Lightning is a special damage type added in LotI, so this is LotI specific. Other parts of the question were answered by the other guys correctly.
white_haired_uncle wrote:
February 16th, 2019, 12:35 am
Thanks for the descriptions, whiskeyjack.

In the attached game save...
Spoiler:
After the dialog, I got an invalid WML error which can be seen at the end of the log.

3.2.4.103.g5eb154d
Her level was 0, so redeeming had a 100% chance. Some change between 1.12 and 1.14 caused her not to inherit the level from the base unit, so I fixed it.
bughunter wrote:
February 16th, 2019, 1:15 am
Is there another thread for LotI player tips and AMLA build specs and gear reviews, etc, or is this it? (Just don't want to be off topic)
If the wiki page isn't enough for you, you can start one. I will link it in this thread's initial post.

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