Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

MarcinBX
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by MarcinBX »

nuorc:
about Efraim/Lethalia and books / legacies
Spoiler:
Attachments
legacy.jpg
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@HD-Berlin
You are allowed to keep the items because removing your items might badly screw up your strategies. I consider it an acceptable break from reality.

If the bats weren't activating events, they would be able to defeat the final enemy without having him start recruiting. The alternative to bats triggering events is too bad. It could be reasonable for bats to make the heroes think about what bats have seen assuming that they somehow know what the bats are doing (which they should since the bats do remove the shroud).

The problem with units marked as wearing items is related to unremovable items like books and such.

There is no check preventing units from appearing in the wall because it would be highly exploitable, you might block the spawn point with a unit to prevent units from spawning.

@braknor
I cannot figure this out. You see the effects of the next advancement that adds horrid, but it's described as the previous advancement. The code looks correct. Did you get the faster attacking advancement before or not?

@nuorc
Never seen that happen. That's weird...

@Ashes
I doubt I would be able to make something up for all the area names, but I will think about it.

@MarcinBX
Cool application of mathematics. I have never figured that out myself.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:@nuorc
Never seen that happen. That's weird...
So I tried it again; this time I could open the Items, but when I selected the unit info I got a Lua error.
Spoiler:
I have a cunning plan.
MarcinBX
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by MarcinBX »

Dugi wrote:@MarcinBX
Cool application of mathematics. I have never figured that out myself.
Thanks. I like math. I hoped that i will find book of magical swordplay but i didn't had luck. Luckily Legacy of Dark Dragon isalso good on Lethalia. :D

Thank You for Your wonderful campaign. I had and still have a lot of fun playing this campaign. That's the only campaign i play.

I still can't figure how to use some legacies maybe i will find this later. Or ask someone on forum.

EDIT:
I doubt I would be able to make something up for all the area names, but I will think about it.
I think that You can show some info during starting message about map where we have information like:
no income, no unkeep
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

nuorc wrote:So I tried it again; this time I could open the Items, but when I selected the unit info I got a Lua error.
That is very weird, they worked fine for me. Are you using most updated version that is available on github (or on the 1.12 server until now)?
MarcinBX wrote:Thanks. I like math.
Me too. Pleased to meet you ^_^
MarcinBX wrote:Thank You for Your wonderful campaign. I had and still have a lot of fun playing this campaign. That's the only campaign i play.
Thanks.

_________________
On this day, many years ago, one of the greatest men in history was born. Without his actions he has done in the distant past, our generation might live miserable lives full of drudgery and ignorance like most people in his era. He was not the first nor the last, but the distance he led mankind down the path from darkness into the light was enormous. To celebrate the birthday of great Sir Isaac Newton, I am making a special update with 15 new items (because without him, our generation would probably have no items, no LotI, no Wesnoth, no Dugi, no computers, ...).

With items, I tried to focus on item types that were not enriched by new content for long. It also contains all incremental changes done since the last update. However, LotI is not yet properly working on 1.13, Beelzebub still might be exploitable and chapters 4 and 9 were not changes, mainly because the discussion isn't over yet.

Merry Christmas to everyone!
ItsDaKoolaidDude
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ItsDaKoolaidDude »

Dugi wrote: On this day, many years ago, one of the greatest men in history was born. Without his actions he has done in the distant past, our generation might live miserable lives full of drudgery and ignorance like most people in his era. He was not the first nor the last, but the distance he led mankind down the path from darkness into the light was enormous. To celebrate the birthday of great Sir Isaac Newton, I am making a special update with 15 new items (because without him, our generation would probably have no items, no LotI, no Wesnoth, no Dugi, no computers, ...).

With items, I tried to focus on item types that were not enriched by new content for long. It also contains all incremental changes done since the last update. However, LotI is not yet properly working on 1.13, Beelzebub still might be exploitable and chapters 4 and 9 were not changes, mainly because the discussion isn't over yet.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs
Merry Christmas to you too, have a good week of holidays.
You spent the entire game, going in circles! It's like the equivalent of Homer Simpson doing cartwheels on the kitchen floor, and you still won?! -Johnny (BSC)
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:That is very weird, they worked fine for me. Are you using most updated version that is available on github (or on the 1.12 server until now)?
We were talking about 1.13, right?
Spoiler:
But your last post clarified we shouldn't expect LotI to function on 1.13, so I'll wait with complaints feedback until, uh, whenever. ;)
Dugi wrote:To celebrate the birthday of great Sir Isaac Newton, I am making a special update with 15 new items
Including an awesome magic apple of some kind?
Dugi wrote:chapters 4 and 9 were not changes, mainly because the discussion isn't over yet.
So I guess everybody here should try to give feedback on that...

----
Edit: I'm looking into my replays of chapter IV (to my surprise they work by and large), and wouldn't know what to suggest to improve it. What are the complaints people are having? Were there actually some specifics discussed? I'm sorry to ask this of you @Dugi, but could you maybe summarize where we are in this discussion? If it's decided that chapter IV will see some changes, you could maybe turn it into a new survey.

Regarding chapter IX, my initial proposal would have been to simply get rid of eight to ten chambers in the lower part, as I simply got sick and tired of storming yet another one and thus had a hard time motivating me; but ofc it would be kind of a shame...

So here's what I can come up with:
- reduce the time we have to fight the same enemies over and over (like that Abba-fan in his fluffy Bloodhound Gang costume)
- make the plants more diverse, maybe 'theming' the fields
- I liked the idea of 'Areas where infernal flora grows and expands out of the original fields'
- make the other enemies more diverse too; unfortunately your suggestions sound so unpleasant to me that I can't really decide what to vote for
Dugi wrote:There's been a suggestion to make demon traits constant for each area and let the player know it ahead somehow. I could make their traits constant (or maybe only 2 of them would be better), but I have no idea how to let the player know it ahead.
I think you could simply make it a line of Ephraim or Lethalia; you already do something like that when L. announces what kind of damage a certain enemy is vulnerable against in each round.


btw: @MarcinBX, thanks for your math example. I guess I'll stick with not giving books to E&L while continuing to AMLA them. ;)
I have a cunning plan.
ahmannar
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ahmannar »

Since Dugi talked about the rework of chapter 4 and i haven´t really played the campaign since the last time i gave this feedback, i´ll just post it again in the hopes that it might somewhat help this discussion:

"4th chapter->We start the 4th chapter with only our 2 heroes and the campaign has a mix of stand-alone levels with little to no replayability(like the infiltration on the castle with efraim or the one in his mind with lethalia), levels in where the opposition is too easy just for the heroes(all of the levels with efraim until he deals with the vampires can easily classify into this and the 1st one with lethalia surely classifies like this) and levels with huge armies that consist of throwing massed recruits(the ones against the kingdom of wesnoth). This creates some problems(at least, in my point of view):
-> A number of levels that consist of purely hack and slash with one unit with no tactical options at all;
-> The nature of the chapter makes that there´s no interest or benefit of maintaining any units alive. Since the units from the previous chapters will be always more useful than the ones we can get from just this one, there´s not even an incentive to preserve some for the next chapter, given the amount of casualties that exist;
-> This probably is too much personal, but the big battles that do exist consist mostly of "recruit large number of appropriate units, smash them all". The fact that there´s no need to preserve them along the chapter and that, when needed, there´s option to recruit high level units, it trivializes a bit these levels."
braknor
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by braknor »

Dugi wrote: @braknor
I cannot figure this out. You see the effects of the next advancement that adds horrid, but it's described as the previous advancement. The code looks correct. Did you get the faster attacking advancement before or not?
I think Gumbrul got one "faster attack" advancement before but I am not 100% sure about that. I also think I equipped him with an item that gave him one additional attack.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

nuorc wrote:When I tried LotI in 1.13.6 I couldn't even open the 'Items' in the context menu. So I considered it unplayable before I ever even saw the AI in action. ;)
I do not mean the uploaded version, I mean the github version.
nuorc wrote:Including an awesome magic apple of some kind?
I will not spoil about this. Discover the answer yourself.
nuorc wrote:I think Gumbrul got one "faster attack" advancement before but I am not 100% sure about that. I also think I equipped him with an item that gave him one additional attack.
I have no control over what is displayed there and some changes cannot be seen. The effects of items are reflected badly. But I don't think that this can be the case. Can you please upload the save file?

#Chapter 9
The propositions about the extra challenges were meant so that they would replace most of the enemies in the affected areas. The areas might end up easier.

[acronym=Abaddon was the Angel of Destruction or something in bible, it's not referring to any overplayed pop bands]Abaddon[/acronym] and the three others could annoy you less often, that would not be a problem.

Announcing the enemy theme at the start of scenario sounds a bit bad because it would not allow any planning. Just sending one of your guys ahead would be enough to check what enemies are there. The original suggestion was about letting you know the enemy theme before entering the area so that you could adjust what is automatically recalled.

#Chapter 4
My proposition:
Efraim and Lethalia may spawn doppelgängers in scenarios they are alone (except those where you make undead out of orcs), an A-team would attack you a few times to balance it
You may recall a certain number of powerful units from previous levels, a bit similarly to the mechanic in chapter 5
The guys from the first three scenarios would follow you
You would have less gold, forcing you to preserve the aforementioned recalls

Doppelgänger: Under some circumstances, the leader would create clones of himself/herself that would be the same except for lower hitpoints and damage. These clones would have inaccessible inventory, but would obtain AMLA. They would continue as regular units, based on the properties the leader had at the time of creation.
Why these abilities: They would start using abilities later available in chapter 5, but in a much more restricted way.
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nuorc
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nuorc »

Dugi wrote:I do not mean the uploaded version, I mean the github version.
I used the upload version. You only have the 1.13 version on github, right?
Dugi wrote:#Chapter 9
The propositions about the extra challenges were meant so that they would replace most of the enemies in the affected areas.
Ah, ok. As I suspect it would bring more variety into clearing the dungeons that sounds good to me.
Dugi wrote:The original suggestion was about letting you know the enemy theme before entering the area so that you could adjust what is automatically recalled.
How about making it a line of the unit that first sees the hex with the name of the destination?
Spoiler:
Dugi wrote:#Chapter 4
You may recall a certain number of powerful units from previous levels, a bit similarly to the mechanic in chapter 5
The guys from the first three scenarios would follow you
This might help to have units the player cares about. It probably won't resolve the bulk of ahmannar's points without massive re-balancing/re-designing of the battles.

I've watched most of my replays from that chapter, and really a lot of it was shuffling generic level 1 undeads around the map. In one scenario I started with 173 units. And the four allies were useless; they themselves stayed at their castle and whatever generic unit they recruited wouldn't matter much on the field. I don't like to play undead in LotI anyway as I think they're bland, they have no individuality and their restrictions compared to other units block most interesting development.

Maybe one solution could be to
Spoiler:
Dugi wrote:Doppelgänger
I don't know. I think I'd like strong, individual units better than weak copies of them.
I have a cunning plan.
seangregorycarroll
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by seangregorycarroll »

Posting to thank you and complement you on your incredible addition to "Battle for Wesnoth". "Legend of the Invincibles" is truly a masterpiece; I can only begin to imagine how much time and effort you have dedicated. I have barely scratched the surface but already am enjoying immensely.

If I may make a few suggestions (and this purely from a cosmetic view point)? I am 47 years old and in my own personal hobby of studying myth and folklore since I was a child, I noticed a few of your class titles could use some polishing IMHO. I will simply list my observations... feel free to ignore... just my two cents :)

-Predator: How about 'Raider'? Predator seems to carry a modern negative attachment.
-Forester: Seems rather mundane. To advance from 'Ranger' (which traditionally invokes awe) to 'Forester is quite a let down. Why not advance from 'Ranger' to 'Ranger Lord'?
-Exterminator: Again here to go from 'Assassin' to Terminix bug killer? :lol: How about 'Grandmaster Assassin'?
-Prophet: In all the 100s of books I have read, never have I seen any correlation between a Paladin and a Prophet... just not even remotely associated. My suggestion would be 'Paladin King'.
-Elvish Juggernaut: This one isn't so bad but it is quite a leap from any sort of Elven lore. A nice progression here would be 'Elvish Superhero'.
-Elvish Shaman progression: From a traditional folklore perspective, Sprites and Sylphs have little to do with the level of power of a druid or sorceress. First path, I would go 2 Druid to 3 Arch Druid to 4 Great Druid. Second path how about 2 Seer to 3 Conjurer 4 Spellbinder and then 5 Sorceress and 5 Enchantress.

Again, I know this is subjective and a matter of opinion. My perspective comes from traditional folklore and myth. Certain words and terms invoke awe and inspiration.

Thanks again for all your hard work!
The Roots of Violence: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, Politics without principles -Gandhi
ItsDaKoolaidDude
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ItsDaKoolaidDude »

seangregorycarroll wrote: -Predator: How about 'Raider'? Predator seems to carry a modern negative attachment.
-Forester: Seems rather mundane. To advance from 'Ranger' (which traditionally invokes awe) to 'Forester is quite a let down. Why not advance from 'Ranger' to 'Ranger Lord'?
-Exterminator: Again here to go from 'Assassin' to Terminix bug killer? :lol: How about 'Grandmaster Assassin'?
-Prophet: In all the 100s of books I have read, never have I seen any correlation between a Paladin and a Prophet... just not even remotely associated. My suggestion would be 'Paladin King'.
-Elvish Juggernaut: This one isn't so bad but it is quite a leap from any sort of Elven lore. A nice progression here would be 'Elvish Superhero'.
-Elvish Shaman progression: From a traditional folklore perspective, Sprites and Sylphs have little to do with the level of power of a druid or sorceress. First path, I would go 2 Druid to 3 Arch Druid to 4 Great Druid. Second path how about 2 Seer to 3 Conjurer 4 Spellbinder and then 5 Sorceress and 5 Enchantress.
-Raider: That might be ok.
-Ranger Lord: Why not Strider instead?
-Grandmaster Assassin: I could back that up.
-Paladin King: A bit of a meh for me. Why not Grand Paladin instead?
-Elvish Superhero: This is not an Elvish Superman, Sean. I would take either Elvish Legend or Elvish Blademaster.
-Elvish Shaman: Seems fine enough.
You spent the entire game, going in circles! It's like the equivalent of Homer Simpson doing cartwheels on the kitchen floor, and you still won?! -Johnny (BSC)
Whiskeyjack
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

ItsDaKoolaidDude wrote:
seangregorycarroll wrote: -Predator: How about 'Raider'? Predator seems to carry a modern negative attachment.
-Forester: Seems rather mundane. To advance from 'Ranger' (which traditionally invokes awe) to 'Forester is quite a let down. Why not advance from 'Ranger' to 'Ranger Lord'?
-Exterminator: Again here to go from 'Assassin' to Terminix bug killer? :lol: How about 'Grandmaster Assassin'?
-Prophet: In all the 100s of books I have read, never have I seen any correlation between a Paladin and a Prophet... just not even remotely associated. My suggestion would be 'Paladin King'.
-Elvish Juggernaut: This one isn't so bad but it is quite a leap from any sort of Elven lore. A nice progression here would be 'Elvish Superhero'.
-Elvish Shaman progression: From a traditional folklore perspective, Sprites and Sylphs have little to do with the level of power of a druid or sorceress. First path, I would go 2 Druid to 3 Arch Druid to 4 Great Druid. Second path how about 2 Seer to 3 Conjurer 4 Spellbinder and then 5 Sorceress and 5 Enchantress.
-Raider: That might be ok.
-Ranger Lord: Why not Strider instead?
-Grandmaster Assassin: I could back that up.
-Paladin King: A bit of a meh for me. Why not Grand Paladin instead?
-Elvish Superhero: This is not an Elvish Superman, Sean. I would take either Elvish Legend or Elvish Blademaster.
-Elvish Shaman: Seems fine enough.
- So "Raider" lost it´s negative historic connotation? :P (seems fine though).
- I like the Strider wink while I´m not particularly fond of the nobility connotation a title like "Lord" might hold.
- Grandmaster Assassin seems fine to me as well.
- Have to agree, King is just cringy for a unit type not actually a king. "Grand Paladin" or "High Paladin" might be alright.
- Elvish Superhero: I´m again with IDKD here, though I don´t really see a reason to change "Juggernaut" at all.
- Elvish Shaman: This is the part where I would have to disagree personally - you obviously ignore Wesnothian lore here: druids advance as they strengthen their connection to the Fae (or however it´s called, not sure if there is cannon of name and properties) - which is the reason they become more fae-like (wings and stuff) - as well as the fact that most of those unit names come from mainline.
Under blood-red skies, an old man sits
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.
Nitramar
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Nitramar »

Hi, like some others before me, I made an account just to post in this thread :)

First of all I'd like to thank you Dugi, as this is probably my favorite campaign (by far the one I have spent the most time on, at least). I don't remember how many times I have started it, I think might have finished chapter 2 twice. Playing on hard now after medium got too easy.

The reason I felt like posting here now is that I see you are considering to make some changes to chapter 9, I hope you do! Inferno is usually the point where I stop playing because after having beaten it once or twice, I don't feel like going through the trouble anymore, as it is quite tedious and repetitive (I have somewhat the same situation with the end of part 1 in Akula's dungeon, it just gets boring at that point too). Which is a shame because I really like chapter 10.

To clarify, the main problem I have with Inferno is the lack of variety: that it is (mostly) always the same terrain, the same enemies and very little tactics besides micromanagement for preventing my units from dying from random ice/arcane attacks I didn't remember to scan each and every demon for.

Also, I might be a minority here, but I don't quite like the explorative and non-linear progression of Inferno (or Akula's dungeon), especially having to revisit already visited areas just to walk through them (because of this, I usually have a very fast gryphon rider just to fly over any map in a couple of turns but it feels a bit silly). I also do *not* like the lack of turn limits. Turn limits, imo, are a great way to make scenarios challenging without having to resort to super strong enemies that can get lucky and kill you in one attack (this is ok now and then but gets annoying when its a rule rather than an exception), and usually requires the player to think more creatively about how to approach a scenario. They are also a straightforward way to prevent excessive exp grinding (which I find myself doing even though I don't like the idea of it). I realize, however, that turn limits could require some extra story justification as to why the player is in a hurry. The "tears in the fabric of space" idea sounds like a good compromise to me (actually it could be even more interesting than just a flat turn limit, but it should really make it difficult and eventually impossible to win as you spend more and more turns).

I like the other changes suggested a few pages back, as well. Basically anything to increase the variety of enemies and areas, and to make it easier to distinguish different demons from each other is great.

Another general suggestion I have, is to do something about Efraim and Lethalia's redeem spell AMLAs (espcially the more advanced spells that are more difficult to get), as they seem quite weak compared to weapons and basic spells (gossamer, at least). The main issue about these, I think, is that they require many AMLAs before they become useful, but at the time you unlock them you have already spent many more AMLAs on basic attacks and the new spells are just not competitive and worth developing (and spells are more difficult to boost using items than weapons). So, somehow, the skills you have aquired before unlocking the new spells should also affect them. I guess the simplest way to achieve this would be to add these advanced spells as bonus attacks of the basic spells (faerie fire / fireball) instead of new attacks, kind of like iceform or elvish seer's faerie sabre attack? Or would this be overpowered?

These are just my thoughts of course, think of them what you like :P. Overall, I think LotI is a very good campaign with excellent replay value, apart from those two chapters. It is nice to see it is still being developed and improved :).
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