Legend of the Invincibles

[xuanquang]

@Dugi: thank you for the explanation. I have known more about how the game works. In my situation, I have an idea. Just keep playing the Annihilation some more turns. ( I played with this scenario until 1000th turn, and now I have dream item sets and super units )

[naikon]

1000 turns? OMG..

[Dugi]

1000 turns? OMG..

I wonder why did he do it, chapter 9 has scenarios that can be replayed and some of them are even designed to replayed indefinitely by those who want to hoard items

[xuanquang]

@Dugi & naikon: just prepare to pass "jungle hell"

[Dugi]

@xuanquang That makes sense, I am well aware that that scenario is hard.

@Dikkin Fixed the shield ability issue. It will be okay in the next version.

_________________
As quite a general request:
I have received a lot of feedback about bugs and various gameplay features, but I haven't received much feedback about scenario content as of times of late. I would be glad if a few people, especially those who played this campaign a lot, posted replies to these questions:
1) Are you noticing combinations of items that are exceptionally powerful and make some units particularly overpowered easily (I don't mean the cases if the unit is a leader that has a lot of AMLA taken using specially unlocked advancement paths or has some suitable legacy or has the highlander trait etc)?
2) Which scenarios that are particularly easy, usually passed just by sending units onto the enemies and crushing them like nothing (I don't mean scenarios in the open world parts of chapters 5 and 9, they are parts of the whole) and should be made harder?
3) Which scenarios are problematically hard, much harder than all scenarios around and being a troublesome issue for unprepared?
4) Which is the least interesting scenario (I don't mean scenarios in the open world parts of chapter 5 and 9, they are parts of the whole) and should get some extra content? Please keep on mind that sometimes the Defeat all enemy leaders objective is needed because I want this otherwise very common kind of objective appear from time to time.

[GodlyDragon]

Hi Dugi, I'm here to report some bugs:

1) Efraim Preserved Lich's Chill Tempest can be unlocked but not upgraded
2) Efraim and Lethalia Lighting and Thunder attacks get the physical item bonuses, not the magical ones
3) Lich King unit have an ordinary Lich resistances and Death Knight movement points
4) Shadowalker unit is Lawful, its description say it is equally good under the sun(s) than in caves, shouldn't it be neutral?
5) Corrupted Elvish Scout unit's sprite is abscent

I can also answer two of your questions, for the first one, give an Unprecious Ring, a Grey Cloak and a Doombringer sword to any sword using unit and it became a real killing machine. For your third question, Jungle Hell scenario is REALLY hellish.

I also have a question: Why is the experience modifier 125% in part 1 (even on easy difficulty)? Personnaly, I just find this frustrating and longer to upgrade my units.

PS: Best Campaign ever made on Battle for Wesnoth, continue your great work

[TheBlackThunderX9]

I haven't played the campaign in forever... Although for the first question, a single item, the cunctator's sword, can turn an orcish warmonger into the most devastating (item-efficiency, leaders excluded) unit ever, due to having base mayhem, and also being able to get doom after 2 AMLAs. Just about any sword using unit can become really effective, but the orcish warmonger is beyond effective thanks to that base mayhem.

[Hex]

Very interesting campaign indeed. I played through the first campaign of it in a very old version of LoI then updated it and am playing through again, you really have done alot with it

I see in your FaQ you explain resistances scales with units existing resistance. But the same is true with dodge chance, which makes less sense. It also means all dodge bonus is less then stated because even the worst defense is at least 20 for anything. Also this is true of dodge and resistance gotten from level upgrading, and that should definitely apply linearly IMO- apply by addition. Especially since there is no way to check what your dodge and resistances are going to be in a upgrade screen.(unit info screen only shows stock figures) Also stuff that gives dodge bonus is small in the first place making for really sad bonus sometimes.

Something I have recently discovered but could not find listed anywhere in info to tell you about it, there is a very small chance of getting a special trait when recruiting. I got this Heavy infantry which has this highlander ability, bonus to hp and strength plus bonus healing every turn. The bonus HP is listed twice, it says "5 more hp + 3 more when you level" twice in highlanders description. That mean 10 more hp and 6 more when you level, or is that a error? Along with the resilient trait, when I recruited it it started out at less then max hp, 43 of 51. Well thanks that, that I noticed the special trait.

I also got a loyal fencer. I could have gotten it from the campaign, but I don't think so (I don't know where I got it since I only spotted it latter in recall list) The description for it's loyalty ability does not tell you free upkeep, like the description of loyal units gotten from the campaign, the abilities description is blank. It also lacks a ring around the bottom of the activity circle (or whatever its called) to indicate that it is loyal, unlike loyal units gotten through campaign.

The legacy path thing was not very clear in its description to me. I did it with Delenia, I choose a find my legacy upgrade, which I thought was the advancement I would have to sacrifice. But she also did not level into a Shadow walker when she leveled next. Does this mean she will never level into a shadow walker because of that legacy? As a loyal unit, I'd have preferred being able to get to level 4 rather then Despair, which reduces damage by 10% of enemies around her.

The information guide talks about redeeming weapon specials and soul eater ability. But these explanations are very confusing. I see no sign of any mechanism like this. I don't know which scenario number I am on, but by counting different autosaves I think I am on at least 12. (which is what is mentioned in the guide, whether only on that one or every one after, I am not sure)

How do potions work exactly? You keep their effects on a unit till that unit levels? This includes at max level, leveling? The introduction tutorial mentions something about that, but strangely the info menu tells me nothing. Well considering how powerful some of these potions are, it's actually reason to not level a unit (if that is how it works) Like haste, which gives 2 speed and a extra attack, which is crazy powerful on a level three HI.

Does equipment level up in this game? I don't see any information about how this works anywhere. But I thought I saw someone mention something like that when glancing through this thread. Also the sword on my leader loses power when unequipped, power remaining lost even if reequipped right away back onto the leader. If there is something like that, the complete lack of information, including what levels items and what level and exp a item is at, is frustrating.

In the old version, you lost equipment when name units leave your party (like lichlord skel guy) and when the two of them become lichs, they not only lost all equipment, but all book knowledge, special upgrades etc. They were restarted with random new abilities(and definitely made weaker in the process) Is this fixed in this version, now that there is a inventory, do units that leave or get converted to liches send their items into inventory now? Do the converted liche guys keep their upgrades etc?

Knock back does not work with plague, though it does work with infect. With plague and knock back, the plague part simply doesn't do anything, no walking corpse.

How does multiple damage boosters combine together? If one item boosts damage by 20%, and another 30%, if they are both equipped, you get 50%? 30%, then 20%? Just the higher of the two, 30%?

Tears of the Dead item, it says it sucks two health with each hit. But this isn't true. No effect listed anywhere, no green healing numbers, no health gained. I tried with blades, with ranged pierce, and with arcane magic, none of them give health when they hit.

[Dikkin]

@Dugi
"Sets damage type to x" does not work with lesser berserk.

[Dugi]

First, please excuse me for replying so late, I somehow failed to notice your replies. I noticed Dikkin's and then I saw the rest. It doesn't happen to me frequently.
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1) Efraim Preserved Lich's Chill Tempest can be unlocked but not upgraded

Really... Fixed it, will be unavailable on the next version (because it's quite useless because he already has a cold damage attack).

2) Efraim and Lethalia Lighting and Thunder attacks get the physical item bonuses, not the magical ones

Oops, forgot to make lightning damage be recognised as magical. Will be working from the next version.

3) Lich King unit have an ordinary Lich resistances and Death Knight movement points

That's intended, because he is something between a Lich and a Death Knight.

4) Shadowalker unit is Lawful, its description say it is equally good under the sun(s) than in caves, shouldn't it be neutral?

It was like that for balance reasons, but that's no longer valid. I just forgot to change it afterwards.

5) Corrupted Elvish Scout unit's sprite is abscent

Fixed it, will be okay in the next version.

Thanks for the bug reports, it was quite a long time nobody told me about so many bugs in a single post.

I can also answer two of your questions, for the first one, give an Unprecious Ring, a Grey Cloak and a Doombringer sword to any sword using unit and it became a real killing machine.

Weakened them a little bit, not removing the weapon specials but decreasing some numerical bonuses.

For your third question, Jungle Hell scenario is REALLY hellish.

Do you suggest to make it easier or keep it as a challenge?

Why is the experience modifier 125% in part 1 (even on easy difficulty)? Personnaly, I just find this frustrating and longer to upgrade my units.

The first part is trying to be quite classical. Low level units can take items, and a couple of items can make a level 1 unit as strong as a level 2 unit. This means that you can train them easier because they are stronger. To counter this effect, I increased the experience they need to advance.
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Although for the first question, a single item, the cunctator's sword, can turn an orcish warmonger into the most devastating (item-efficiency, leaders excluded) unit ever, due to having base mayhem, and also being able to get doom after 2 AMLAs. Just about any sword using unit can become really effective, but the orcish warmonger is beyond effective thanks to that base mayhem.

I was noticing that that sword was quite strong. It was intended to be an item good for supporting units and not for attacking alone. So I decreased its damage (by giving it a negative damage bonus, -30% on easy, -50% on hard because it stacks additively with damage bonuses).

Thanks for feedback.
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Also this is true of dodge and resistance gotten from level upgrading, and that should definitely apply linearly IMO

No, it isn't. Any resistances or defence bonuses gained from advancement are additive. Only resistance bonuses to all physical resistances the armours give and defence bonuses from items stack in the unfavourable way.

The bonus HP is listed twice, it says "5 more hp + 3 more when you level" twice in highlanders description.

The trait description sucks in 1.10, it's problematic to set anything there because it's generated automatically (however, only some effects are listed) and all I can do is to write something before it. The trait descriptions are okay on wesnoth versions 1.11.8 and later.

The description for it's loyalty ability does not tell you free upkeep, like the description of loyal units gotten from the campaign, the abilities description is blank.

Fixed this one. The displaying of the loyal icon over his head was bugged, so I fixed it too. Will be okay for new units created on the next version.

The legacy path thing was not very clear in its description to me. I did it with Delenia, I choose a find my legacy upgrade, which I thought was the advancement I would have to sacrifice. But she also did not level into a Shadow walker when she leveled next. Does this mean she will never level into a shadow walker because of that legacy? As a loyal unit, I'd have preferred being able to get to level 4 rather then Despair, which reduces damage by 10% of enemies around her.

Delenia doesn't advance into a Shadowalker. She used to do that, but she no longer does. Legacy has nothing to do with it.

The information guide talks about redeeming weapon specials and soul eater ability. But these explanations are very confusing. I see no sign of any mechanism like this. I don't know which scenario number I am on, but by counting different autosaves I think I am on at least 12

Efraim should obtain it in scenario 12 (if I don't count tutorial as the first scenario). It will become quite an important mechanic afterwards.

How do potions work exactly? You keep their effects on a unit till that unit levels? This includes at max level, leveling?

Yes and yes. When the unit advances, the potion effect wears off. You can't prevent the unit from advancing, because most of these effects' usage requires actions that give experience (I think that there is one exception).

Does equipment level up in this game?

No. I never coded such an effect. Sometimes, I weaken some items between versions because some items were too strong or led to overpowered item combos. This can be also created by increasing the difficulty, some items' properties are difficulty dependent (usually stronger on easier difficulties). These changes don't take effect instantly when you update the add-on or change difficulty, but rather when you unequip the item from a unit.

Is this fixed in this version, now that there is a inventory, do units that leave or get converted to liches send their items into inventory now? Do the converted liche guys keep their upgrades etc?

Partially. They'll lose all the advancements, but not items (book knowledge will be reset, but they'll be able to take it again because they still have the book).

Knock back does not work with plague, though it does work with infect.

This is true. I never realised that this interaction can happen very easily. Fixed it, will be working from the next version.

How does multiple damage boosters combine together? If one item boosts damage by 20%, and another 30%, if they are both equipped, you get 50%? 30%, then 20%? Just the higher of the two, 30%?

They stack additively. Having bonuses -40%, 20% and 40% and 30% will result in a 50% bonus.

Tears of the Dead item, it says it sucks two health with each hit. But this isn't true. No effect listed anywhere, no green healing numbers, no health gained. I tried with blades, with ranged pierce, and with arcane magic, none of them give health when they hit.

The effect does not appear as a weapon special nor adds green numbers (in later parts of the campaign, it becomes increasingly common and it would be just a nuissance). But it adds hitpoints if damage is dealt with an attack that deals blade, impact or pierce damage, I am quite sure of that.

Thanks for the bug reports.
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"Sets damage type to x" does not work with lesser berserk.

I think that this was done on purpose, but I am not perfectly sure why, probably for balance reasons. The advancement code explicitly says that the new attack's type will be blade.

[GodlyDragon]

@Dugi: For jungle Hell, I mean that you could make it easier, the map is huge and the enemies are very powerful, I think it's the hardest map in this campaign. For the Lich King, souldn't it be the best of a Lich and a Death Knight?

[Raynee]

1. First of all I think LotI is the best wesnoth campaign ever.

2. One question in the last scenario of chapter 8 after Jungle Hell, Lethalia or Efraim are expected to get close to the portal to end the scenario. However I cannot see any portal, although I explored now the whole cave of the last enemy boss with Lethalia and Efraim. Even search in this forum did not help. Where is it?

3. Tip for beginners: I like the hit and run ability, which the Lunatic Knights (Advancement of the lancer) can learn. Together with at least two strong healers (Faerie Incarnation can learn to heal up to +40 or the quite rare ring which gives the same ability heal +40) and units with leadership ability (specially the Duke, who can learn other abilities benefitting the supported units) they make a strong and almost unbeatable team. I also tried to make each unit as fast as possible. Is there any other character, who can learn the ability Hit and Run?

[Raijer]

One question in the last scenario of chapter 8 after Jungle Hell, Lethalia or Efraim are expected to get close to the portal to end the scenario. However I cannot see any portal, although I explored now the whole cave of the last enemy boss with Lethalia and Efraim. Even search in this forum did not help. Where is it?

Did you go to the strange blue part that covers 5 hexes with Efraim in particular ? Might be a bug.

Is there any other character, who can learn the ability Hit and Run?

Well, knowing that the cunctator's sword has the hit and run ability, any unit with a sword can learn it. Giving the cunctator's set to a fast unit can pretty much kill a whole army without being touched (i did this with Efraim when there was only the sword, now i do it more with an elvish juggernaut)

[xuanquang]

@Raynee: Elvish Gryphon Rider, Orcish Nightblade also have "hit and run" weapon special. You can craft the weapon "guerrilla" in crafting menu so that any unit can "hit and run". The combination of a guerrilla and an intoxicator may work better than the single cuncator sword.

P/s: why does everyone like hit and run? Jump to center of enemies and show them who is the boss!

[Hex]

The information guide talks about redeeming weapon specials and soul eater ability. But these explanations are very confusing. I see no sign of any mechanism like this. I don't know which scenario number I am on, but by counting different autosaves I think I am on at least 12

Efraim should obtain it in scenario 12 (if I don't count tutorial as the first scenario). It will become quite an important mechanic afterwards.

How do you tell what scenario you are in? What is scenario 12s name and contents? Does a pop up come and alert you to the new mechanic and explain it?

Is this fixed in this version, now that there is a inventory, do units that leave or get converted to liches send their items into inventory now? Do the converted liche guys keep their upgrades etc?

Partially. They'll lose all the advancements, but not items (book knowledge will be reset, but they'll be able to take it again because they still have the book).

So the book which gets destroyed by reading, will regenerate in inventory for them to read again?

Does equipment level up in this game?

No. I never coded such an effect. Sometimes, I weaken some items between versions because some items were too strong or led to overpowered item combos. This can be also created by increasing the difficulty, some items' properties are difficulty dependent (usually stronger on easier difficulties). These changes don't take effect instantly when you update the add-on or change difficulty, but rather when you unequip the item from a unit.

Well then your update must not have touched the tutorial part of the game. You know the swords we are forced to make and equip in tutorial, lose substantial power when unequipped. MCs Krux sword goes from +5 damage to +3, and thieves twinkling sword goes from 30% bonus damage to 20%. And this is not from updating (had to start anew, previous version was too old to continue from) Or from changing difficulty.

Speaking of changing difficulty, how do you change difficulty? How do you know what difficulty setting you are on, if you forget what you choose from the start?

How do potions work exactly? You keep their effects on a unit till that unit levels? This includes at max level, leveling?

Yes and yes. When the unit advances, the potion effect wears off. You can't prevent the unit from advancing, because most of these effects' usage requires actions that give experience (I think that there is one exception).

Well you could give a level 3 a potion, the amount of experience required to get to level 4 for some units is astounding (I know its meant to balance out the power of level 4) especially without intelligence. And if you rarely attack or kill... Funny, benefiting from lacking intelligence.

Here is my suggestion, make potions last for one map or even a set number of turns, and leveling up would not cause you to lose the effect of the potion. That would help keep the balance. Still, some of these potions are crazy powerful.

Tears of the Dead item, it says it sucks two health with each hit. But this isn't true. No effect listed anywhere, no green healing numbers, no health gained. I tried with blades, with ranged pierce, and with arcane magic, none of them give health when they hit.

The effect does not appear as a weapon special nor adds green numbers (in later parts of the campaign, it becomes increasingly common and it would be just a nuissance). But it adds hitpoints if damage is dealt with an attack that deals blade, impact or pierce damage, I am quite sure of that.

No, it doesn't I spent quite some time getting unit damaged then attacking and looking for health gained, with physical damage. No health was gained. In fact none of the suck health items seem to work.

There is a unlisted thing with physical resistance. When a item says it gives X physical resistance, in fact it gives half of that number in impact resistance. So if ice armor gives 20 physical resistance, then it gives 10 impact resistance. If flying shoes give 7 physical resistance, it gives 3 impact resistance. And this is BEFORE you reduce it further from existing resistances. This should be mentioned in item description or changed.

I think elf fairy types should be able to use a staffs attack, even if they are at a level where their attack is using their hands. I mean at least the game does allow you to equip a staff, but you don't get the staffs extra damage, attack, drain or what not. They wouldn't suddenly forget how to use a staff just because they can also attack with their hands. Also, its not like there are any units that even use staff attacks past level 2. The staff attack would replace melee hand attack, with new staff attack being hand attack + item effects.

Item/unit information screen should tell you what category of weapons a unit can equip, it isn't always clear.

Some advancements and books, might allow one to equip weapons they normally don't have a attack for. If a unit lost the attack for that weapon type when advancing, it would use its previous attack it had before advancing+ weapon bonus. Otherwise it would be that weapons typical attack on a level 1+ weapon bonus. Also any "increase melee attack" etc advancement would also apply to this new attack, even retroactively. Perhaps even some or more units keep their ability to use certain weapons naturally, even when they advance out of using it.

You get items dropped by bosses that win the scenario, but do you get other items on map elsewhere also thrown into inventory?

Some other mechanic requests.

• A menu option to pick up items dropped on the ground. If you drop something on the ground then change your mind, you shouldn't have to reload the game or move off the space and back on again, just to pick it up. Also could apply for crafting material on the ground too, especially useful if a WC is made on that spot.
  
  When you recycle weapons you find, you should get half (rounded down, or up or down randomly) of the material used in it in the first place. Any noncraftables can be assigned material values for this. 1 random gem is so sad.
  
  Enemies should equip the equipment they drop, if they can. Perhaps allow it to cheat and have enemies equip stuff even when they normally wouldn't be able to. Then you can know what units to target and it naturally makes better equipment harder to earn.
  
  If one of your units dies with items on it, do you lose the items? I think you do. Instead their stuff should fall to the ground to be picked up again.
  
  Fog of war on scenarios, not just shroud. It would increase the difficulty of these too easy maps while also giving them a nice feel, potential danger and need to scout. Rather then reveal a area and you always know whats happening there.

Here are some spoilers for how to beat two scenarios, and also concerns about balance/in game guide.
Scenario with orcs and elves on both sides where you kill a orc charismatic and get them to fight each other. And the lava prison break one (in that order)

Spoiler:

Scenario with orcs and elves on both sides:
Hopefully you recruited a bunch in defeated castles of last scenario before coming here so you have a good list to recall from, you won't be able to recruit some of these for a long while or ever again.
The game dialogue suggests you go kill the orc on the opposite corner of the map and all the other orcs will fight. The in game guide also suggests this. Don't listen to em. In a older version orcs will start attacking you, even if you don't attack them, even if you sit on your castle doing nothing and passing turns, maybe this was changed in new version, I don't know. And they will attack you even more once you kill the charismatic leader. And you will be trapped surrounded by enemies, and any units you left behind will be split off from you. And to get them to fight each other, you have to wait for them to defeat the elves and be out of their way.

Instead, go left, a number of faster units that can crawl over the mountains with reasonable speed go over them, others going around, and attack the orc castle immediately left of you. If you strike fast you can easily kill the leader before the elves they are struggling with get worn down too much. Well a bunch of units go left, you only need so many units. Others, elves (and your elf girlfriend should go down immediately from start, grabbing houses along the way) elves, should defend the woods from the orcs down below. till the orcs to your left are defeated, then send a bunch of units and finish off those orcs. and get more elf recruits. Leave behind a few units after your attack on left orcs to defend elf town, you don't need too many. Make sure you get all the orcs down below, there are two or three leaders of em.

If you've followed my instructions, you should having a easy time of it. No particular instructions needed much after this point. Just be careful with final boss/leader, it's hard to approach and overwhelm with numbers with all the mountains and water, and you can easily accidentally lose a key unit or two if you aren't careful.

Scenario where you are breaking out of lave prison:
Key to this scenario is what you did before coming here. You need to smuggle in at least two items on MC and elf girlfriend to give to your new Lich allie.
1. Something that gives him plague or infect. It works really well with his leadership (and I recommend upgrading him to lich warlord for the magical attacks and leadership)
2. Something that gives him speed and/or reduced movement cost to 1 on cave, mushrooms, hills. With his 5 movement, and 2 movement cost on many land types, he will be crawling through at two hexs a turn through much of the map. Since your party can not move any faster then its slowest member (since splitting them up is way too dangerous here) And since despite 100 turn limit, the most likely way to lose on this map is to run out of turns. If you got a second movement item, give it to the elf.
Also giving MC something that changes alignment from lawful to chaotic would be useful too, being all fought UG.

In old version, you could take your time, capture everything and hold onto it. New version, recent version. The map spawns a bat or more every single turn, including level 2 bats. You can spend all 100 of your turns just killing them off, and if you don't kill em off, they just grow and swarm more. Any injured allie away from a house becomes unable to heal up except by waiting around every turn till you are out of turns. So in short, forget houses mostly. And don't take the first left/west fork, it just leads to a single house you can't hold and even more bat spawn (though it's just a bunch one time) It is possible to level up a WC and guard houses you grab at constriction points, but that takes way too many turns. Focus on getting lich to level 4.

Well, you could leave lich behind to kill bats as they spawn.

Pro tip: at the bridge, send a bat WC out to where the dragon castle is and another spot to the left. You can grab and store two different items on the map. Till your guys go down the path, there is no dragon.

Have a few WC you protect well (preferably bat types for their maneuverability and speed), you will need them to distract the dragon. Now this dragon is tricky. its movement is great, and passages are tight, its hard to get it in a spot where all three of your guys can attack him in a single turn after it has attacked a WC. I've tried a few times, my only "solution" has been cheating and reloading till you get lucky enough in combat and manage to kill it off with your MC.(hopefully you've been upgrading his magic attack or have arcane/cold melee) It helps if you use the flying bat trick early and reveal the space where the dragon spawns latter on, then you can plan movement better.

There is no early finish bonus, and 80% of gold carries over, so if you can hold houses, maybe with lich in bat spawn area, there is all the reason to wait to finish the area on the last possible turn for max gold and experience.

Suggestions, early finish bonus. Less gold carry over.

Dragon is there soon after start, just doesn't move till something gets in range.

This could be said for the next scenario as well, a bit of tweaking so that the guys in that area don't appear after you find them, but are there from the start, just in a safer spot. Maybe trapped by some rubble or blockaded with it to protect themselves in a room. (but on AI control and invisible till you find them) This way the scenario makes more sense but doesn't have to be changed much. And this way you can find them early without putting them in danger.

Bug report:
Foul potion/Unholy hunger states you lose 1 max health when you don't feed (well it says eventually, like that is clear in its meaning) In fact, it causes you to lose one max health each turn, even if you do kill, unless next to a healer (but you still lose that 1 max health when in a house) It also resets to the max health you would have had without the foul hunger potion, next time you level out of it, but you keep your current health even if its well above the now reset max.(least till you level or till end of scenario)