Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
19
19%
Reaper
9
9%
Scythemaster
5
5%
Shadowalker
6
6%
Shadow Prince
11
11%
Siege Troll
4
4%
Sky Goblin
2
2%
Snow Hunter
12
12%
Soul Shooter
3
3%
Swordmaster
13
13%
Troll Boulderlobber
1
1%
Warlock
7
7%
Werewolf Rider
3
3%
Zombie Rider
3
3%
 
Total votes: 98

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

@Aevyn
Aevyn wrote:In college, but I found myself reinstalling Wesnoth to play LotI whenever I needed a break from studying.
Despite studying a hard subject at college, I have found enough time to write LotI. College doesn't consume as much time as it might seem.
Aevyn wrote:Anyway, the dragon leaders within this scenario like to move around a lot and every time I play it, one Dragon leader always steals another's keep, thus preventing one of the two from recruiting.
This can be fixed.
Aevyn wrote:I mean, it's a bit obvious you switched some letters around in "The Hero" and it sort of takes away any seriousness involved with the character.
I wasn't able to invent anything better so far. They all call him Stormrider anyway. If you have a better idea how he should be called, write about it.
Aevyn wrote:Why isn't this mainline yet? Disappointed
There are many reasons. The text revisions are far from complete and therefore any translations would be meaningless. The code, although it helped a lot of people to learn various tricks, is still far from being clear enough. There are still a lot of bugs creeping around. And there are a few powerful people who would very likely oppose it.
Aevyn wrote:Make all loyal units appear by default in all campaigns (Like in Chapter 3).
Some chapters have an experimental recruitment/recalling system, but I don't want to spread it into the entire campaign. I added the loyal trait to recruits just to add a small new feature, inspired by the old versions where the loyal trait was available as any other trait.
Aevyn wrote:Have the one strongest unit appear at the start of the scenario and allow dialog from this unit as the story progresses (sort of like an army leader).
Can you first tell me the mathematical definition of the 'strongest unit'?
Ever since lesser gems were eliminated for crafting higher classed weapons, I have a major overabundance of obsidian gems.[/quote="Aevyn"]They were eliminated because many higher recipes were limited by the lower gems. But now it seems that there was a reason for them being required. I might add a few lower gems to the required materials of higher recipes.

@Raijer
Raijer wrote:I know you probably don't want to do that, but is there a possibility that you would create a "leader only" mode, that could be switched on/off at the start of each chapter ?
While leader-only gameplay is possible, it is not recommended. If I added some features for it, I would have to balance it, and that would be quite a problem, because it would need stronger, but less numerous enemies, and I finishing the balance would require a player really experienced with LotI gameplay, which I am not.
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Aevyn »

Despite studying a hard subject at college, I have found enough time to write LotI. College doesn't consume as much time as it might seem.
That's true. If someone knows how to manage time well, they can find time for a lot of things. But anyway, I'm also working on several projects (including a particularly annoying Java project) in addition to the normal Chemistry college workload, so life is a bit busy. LotI is my break when I'm stressed or during those frustrating times when I can't find the source of a bug.
Some chapters have an experimental recruitment/recalling system, but I don't want to spread it into the entire campaign. I added the loyal trait to recruits just to add a small new feature, inspired by the old versions where the loyal trait was available as any other trait.
Fair enough! The idea was a long shot, but thought I'd present it anyway.
Can you first tell me the mathematical definition of the 'strongest unit'?
Well several approaches can be taken when it comes to determining the "strongest unit". The simplest formula would be one that totals the amount of experience gained by all recall units. This is assuming that a variable exists that stores each unit's total experience gained (I'm not familiar with Campaign/Scenario development). Instead of simply calculating the "strongest" based on only experience points, we could use level as a factor as well.

Lastly, this might be too much, but you could always modify the simple cumulative formula to give preference to certain units. For examples, units with the leadership ability fit the image of a "commander" moreso than those without. Though like I said, this is probably unnecessary.
They were eliminated because many higher recipes were limited by the lower gems. But now it seems that there was a reason for them being required. I might add a few lower gems to the required materials of higher recipes.
I have to admit, I do enjoy there being less of a requirement for some higher classed crafting weapons, but yea... I'm getting quite the collection of obsidians and opals. Oddly, every other gem is pretty scarce. Perhaps it's just my luck.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

Your definition of the strongest unit is still quite unclear. Total experience isn't counted anywhere, but it can be just be calculated from the AMLAs taken in the past. There are tons of various leadership-like abilities in LotI - generic leadership, protecting nearby units from damage, increasing the damage of nearby units by a fixed value, adding a weapon special to adjacent units... and this is further complicated by abilities that decrease the damage of nearby enemies (or allies in the case of Knight of Magic) or decrease their resistances, whose code is almost identical. And each one fits the player differently, so their importance can vary. And items are another question - a unit with good gear is usually stronger than a unit with a lot of AMLAs taken. Ranking items by quality and how much they fit the unit brings whole new levels to this problem.

Also, think of the case that a new unit is introduced (for example the latest one, Champion) - you find it very powerful, save exp for it, get tons of AMLAs and then you realise that you were ignoring some important advancement options and limited its potential - thus, you make a new one and give him all the top items the old one had, keeping the old one only for the case that he might be still needed. The old one would be recalled and recalled for many scenarios, getting more experience because of being on the map and being attacked by enemies from time to time.
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Aevyn »

Very good points and it appears I didn't think about it in depth from a programmers perspective.

Well then the simple solution that won't require a complex formula would be:

Give the player a method to define a "primary unit" or a "favorite unit" that will accompany the main characters. If we're concerned about an unwanted unit being this special character, this feature would prevent the issue and give the most control to the user. Anyway, in terms of actually implementing this, I believe the simplest way would be to add an item in the right click menu named "Make Primary Unit". However, there may or may not need to be a restriction set as to how often the player can change their primary unit.

Anyway, this is for your consideration. I always liked the few times when official campaigns included characters you created into the story and/or had them at the beginning as a leader figure. I think it would add one more unique attraction to the campaigns and yet another interesting and compelling twist.

PS: If this were added it could actually be expanded upon with many possibilities. There could be benefits for being a primary unit. As an example, the can be given generic leadership or made loyal.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

There is one complication about menu items - there can be only seven of them. Given that LotI already uses three (help, items and altering advancement), some chapters use extra ones (configure autorecall), some scenarios have their specific menu items (building igloos), some external hacks (like No Randomness Mod) have some because they need to be controlled somehow, the space there is quite limited.

This new feature would change the add-on quite largely, pretty much all scenarios. Possibly changing the balance, having a unit automatically recalled is like having 20 extra gold in each scenario. And requiring a change in the dialogues of 200 scenarios.

I think that the story leaders are the ones who are leading the army (that's why the're called leaders, right?), because their ancient wisdom is way beyond the understanding of their mortal generals. Usually when attacking, the leaders are in the front lines. I somehow don't think that they need to choose their champion.

And so far, you were the only one suggesting this, I see no support from the observers and it was never suggested before. If I disagree with a change, I do it usually only if there is a lot of people telling otherwise, sorry.
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Aevyn »

No need to apologize; Was just a random proposal! I had no idea of the menu item limit and yes, it could potentially change a lot. Nevermind! Expect more bug reports from me once I finish my current campaign.
lynx
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by lynx »

I find it odd that you don't have anything to do with the lowest gems. Everytime I get a new faction, Konrad's might is on the menu for most of them. Marksmanship is really important in some scenarios.
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

So it's decided: Higher items will cost some low level gems again, but not as much as they did before.
Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Konrad2 »

reoirting typo : thrid (and last) Gladiatrix Scenario, vitra says "...told us to practise harder.."
but it should be practice
also i would recommend to make those units of side 2 and 3 standing on the map randomly loyal, because they consume a lot of income

also if you will ever consider the idea of appointing strongest unit, dont give them benefits of being primary unit, would be the same like giving a strong unit an even greater buff for no cost. senseless.

for srongest unit...you would rly have to decide for yourself wh that strongest unit is, i have 3 powerful units who could beat each other. So who would be strongest ^^
Aevyn
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Aevyn »

lynx wrote:I find it odd that you don't have anything to do with the lowest gems. Everytime I get a new faction, Konrad's might is on the menu for most of them. Marksmanship is really important in some scenarios.
And yea that's true, Konrad's Might marksmanship does help a lot, but it also requires topaz. I personally devote topazes to Lightning Agility primarily, Defensive Stance, equality, and a couple others. Right now I'm in Campaign 4 with 70 obsidian gems doing nothing while every other gem is less than 8 in amount. Oh and I was wrong above: I don't have an overabundance of opals; it's just the obsidian gems that are high.

I guess someone could argue that it's just the weapons I choose to craft that lead to obsidian madness, but honestly, if I had constructed more Konrad's Might weapons, I'd probably have 50 obsidians as opposed to the 70 I have right now. Or perhaps the obsidian drop rate is a bit too high. Understandably, it's the lowest gem and should be common, so perhaps this is the way it should be.
also if you will ever consider the idea of appointing strongest unit, dont give them benefits of being primary unit, would be the same like giving a strong unit an even greater buff for no cost. senseless.

for srongest unit...you would rly have to decide for yourself wh that strongest unit is, i have 3 powerful units who could beat each other. So who would be strongest ^^
Yea, I retract the idea, though I regret using the word "strongest" or mentioning that it can have extra buffs. The original idea was simply to give a random unit contribution to the story that appears at the scenario start, but as Dugi pointed out, that's a free 20 gold across most of the scenarios if that unit stays on the map with Efraim and Lethalia. The concept I was trying to achieve is similar to a scenario in Campaign 6 where Efraim needs to get into a library and at the start of the scenario, a random recalled unit has a conversation with him.
Jeffers0n
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Jeffers0n »

In scenario Long Way Home, it is possible to recall undead units
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

Konrad2 wrote:reoirting typo : thrid (and last) Gladiatrix Scenario, vitra says "...told us to practise harder.."
but it should be practice
Practice is a noun, practise is a verb. In American English, practice is used in both cases, but I've written LotI dialogues in British English.
Jeffers0n wrote:In scenario Long Way Home, it is possible to recall undead units
That is intentional, for gameplay reasons. You might have placed many items on undead units (and/or let them get a lot of experience), and you would have to fight without them in the finale of chapter 1. There is an explanation that they used some illusion magic to make them appear human.
Jeffers0n
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Jeffers0n »

There is an explanation that they used some illusion magic to make them appear human.
Then why shouldn't they recruit Undead if they can make them appear human?
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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Dugi »

How would you mask new human soldiers raising from the ground? They would have to appear somehow with no obvious origin.
But the actual reason is that the removal of undead from the recall list was quite unpopular so I left them there, but I didn't want them to keep recruiting undead for the rest of the campaign, they weren't meant to be witching all the time, and trying to conceal it nonstop.
Jeffers0n
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (now complete)

Post by Jeffers0n »

How would you mask new human soldiers raising from the ground? They would have to appear somehow with no obvious origin.
I hadn't thought of that. Anyway, when starting from chapter one Efraim has no traits, but starting in later chapters he has.
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