Legend of the Invincibles

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Elvish Nightprowler
17
14%
Elvish Overlord
8
7%
Elvish Seer
17
14%
Elvish Warlord
5
4%
Exterminator
14
12%
Forester
3
2%
Goblin Ravager
0
No votes
Goblin Warbanner
0
No votes
Grim Knight
0
No votes
Faerie Incarnation
17
14%
Infernal Knight
5
4%
Lich King
7
6%
Lunatic Knight
10
8%
Monstrosity
0
No votes
Orcish Nightblade
0
No votes
Orcish Strafer
4
3%
Pilum Master
4
3%
Orcish Warmonger
4
3%
Phantom
3
2%
Predator
3
2%
 
Total votes: 121

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arobinson
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (chapter 6 is out)

Post by arobinson »

dugi wrote:
For Lethalia I think that you could remove the axe and just stick to one melee attack (and no fire damage upgrade).
IMO, she deserves to have a decent melee attack. Efraim can be equally powerful in magic (after adding a few AMLAs), and he has a strong melee attack. Can you better explain why do you want this?
The elves "hate" metal as described in more than one campaign, including the mainline campaigns and no spell-caster ever uses a metal weapon or metal armor in the game. Typically fantasy themed stories have a notion that metal blocks magic and therefore spell-casters wear robes or leather and use staves or wands (some have "orbs"). Therefore, it does not seems logical to me that Lethalia would choose to learn to use a heavy, unbalanced metal weapon like an axe. What fits to me is the staff (already there) and the faerie touch (BTW, Lethalia's staff attack is already adequate and she need not have anything better, especially with the "focused" trait attainable and after playing a few times, I have not upgraded the axe and have only used the staff as it did not seem "right" to have the axe). Now both the ancient lich, the shyde and the sylph have a "touch" attack, oo it would make more sense to me, being both a lich and a faerie unit, that she would have a touch attack that could upgrade to draining. I believe this would fit her race and "class" better.
dugi wrote:
For Ephraim, I would think that he should keep his initial attacks even after becoming a lich. So, he would still have skirmisher, crossbow and shadow wave, but not others. Whirlwind would be okay, but I'd say remove the knives. With fewer attacks, it would also mean fewer equipment that they could wear and thus not become as powerful.
I removed skirmisher because he was very good at running through the enemies and killing leaders who were quire well protected. That is why I don't want to return it. Why crossbow and not knives? Crossbows are more powerful (Doomsday machine with shockwave). And less stylish than knives. And I replaced shadow wave with wave of fear because I didn't want him to deal arcane damage so easily, because it would make all undead enemies easy from the start (he can drain them, and having also arcane damage?; I could not remove arcane damage from Lethalia, because it was her best attack from far).
The issue I saw with dropping the skirmisher, is that it was a talent that he had. The story does not seem to justify why becoming a preserved lich would remove such a talent. Does he become slower once dead?

As for the crossbow, my rational is this: Ephraim is of noble blood and trained as a fencer. He knows magic as well, so digging into his possible past, perhaps he was gifted with magic, but his noble parents believed that he should be more "proper" and learn the art of fencing. As for a crossbow, fencers use this weapon, so it fits with his first class, but he knows magic. So the question would be, why would someone gifted in magic and being a noble, choose to study something so weak and under-handed as throwing knives? With that point of view, it would seems that a sword and magic is enough attacks, there would be no reason for him to waste his time in learning to throw knives. Now he is only given one magic attack at first, the cold attack, but in wesnoth, lawful mages usually have a magic missile, or a fireball spell. So, would it be better to give him a fireball spell before being a lich or an arcane attack after becoming one? That would fit the lich role since they have both the shadow wave and chill tempest.

So my point was more of skills that fit his implied background and what skills he had before he became a lich rather than ones that affect gameplay.
Running Wesnoth 1.12.4 on Mac OSX 10.10
Campaigns:

Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles (chapter 6 is out)

Post by Konrad2 »

For Ephraim, I would think that he should keep his initial attacks even after becoming a lich. So, he would still have skirmisher, crossbow and shadow wave, but not others. Whirlwind would be okay, but I'd say remove the knives. With fewer attacks, it would also mean fewer equipment that they could wear and thus not become as powerful.
I removed skirmisher because he was very good at running through the enemies and killing leaders who were quire well protected. That is why I don't want to return it. Why crossbow and not knives? Crossbows are more powerful (Doomsday machine with shockwave). And less stylish than knives. And I replaced shadow wave with wave of fear because I didn't want him to deal arcane damage so easily, because it would make all undead enemies easy from the start (he can drain them, and having also arcane damage?; I could not remove arcane damage from Lethalia, because it was her best attack from far).
this for giving him arcane damage :)

for skirmish i would think that because he became that powerful, the enemies give him more attention so it is impossible for him to sneak unignored between them

for the knives you could say that they were so easy to learn and handy (knives are small, crossbows not) so that he prefered them instead the crossbow

for lethalia i think that she is able to use the axe exactly because she is so powerful
she know that she is very powerful with magic but she need a good melee attack to
what should she do? she just take a axe which is weaking her a little little bit and cos she is so powerful she can still use strong magic

just a few thoughts :D i hope you and dugi might agree with it

@dugi even if the villages dont give income they cover for the gold those soldiers want

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

@arobinson Your arguments are very good. (note that I wrote almost all of this before I read Konrad2's reply)

The elves cannot hate metal, as they carry steel swords and so on. But I suppose you meant that the fearie-shaped elves hate metallic objects. I wrote myself in the description of Elvish Overlord that they have to use swords made of a special material that does not cause pain to them. But, Lethalia (as a unit) is an undead, and the undead have no problems of this kind. I decided to give her an axe as an additional attack because a person of a great age and power should have found some time to learn to fight with a melee weapon, and I chose axe because Efraim uses swords and they should not use the same kind of weapon for (quite obvious) gameplay reasons.
When speaking about other fantasy games, I would rather say that it's not metal that blocks spellcasting, rather its weight that makes it hard to move the hands to cast the spell correctly. Logically. I haven't played really many games, but in the games I have played: In Morrowind and Oblivion, there is also a class using heavy armours and battleaxes, and also good at spellcasting. In D&D, sorcerers and wizards can not cast in armour, unless they use Still Spell, whose usage is annoying and slightly crippling the spellcasting; but clerics (and clerics are more keen at necromancy than wizards/sorcerers there) and druids can cast in full armour, having no issues with it (and Lethalia is in this something similar to a druid, when thinking about that). And after all, all spellcasters had no issues to use any weapon, just that they might need to learn to use it, and they lacked the strength to carry it. Neither of these restrictions applies to Lethalia.
And, the axe attack is not an insane primary melee attack because the staff has drain, and a plenty of other weapon specials, while the axe gets just some damage (and whirlwind with some damage penalties, but that is nothing compared to explosive faerie fire, and other attacks that may deal even more damage). You have a choice, damage (and hunt for weapon specials from items to get something), or a load of weapon specials. More a warrior combat style or more a mage combat style.

I know that the removal of skirmisher cannot be logically justified, but he just cannot have it, because he would kill leaders too easily.

About the crossbow attack, you might be right, but I want to make that sword mage advancement line because he of him. He would have fireball instead of shadow wave, use no throwing knives because he would not advance through shadowalker. But I don't know why you consider the throwing knives to be inferior to crossbow, crossbow is a very slow weapon, and much easier to use than knives. And knives are more useful if poisoned. And as Konrad2 said, smaller and therefore more comfortable to be carried around as a secondary weapon.
@dugi even if the villages dont give income they cover for the gold those soldiers want
Really? Well, then it's better than I thought.

Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

btw, when will you add the other new advancements?

bug: when delly (preserved lich) attacks, her images in fight look like efraim sometimes and the attacks she "seems" to use (their images) are always mixed like: she use sword attack and you see whirlwind, wave of fear, fireball, shadow wave

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

btw, when will you add the other new advancements?
I am working on it continually, and when I have an idea what advancements should I add, I add them.
bug: when delly (preserved lich) attacks, her images in fight look like efraim sometimes and the attacks she "seems" to use (their images) are always mixed like: she use sword attack and you see whirlwind, wave of fear, fireball, shadow wave
Looks like if her animations were written in a wrong order. I will correct it.

Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

would it be possible to let pikeman and his advancements use spears? i mean there isnt a great difference between a pike and spear and i never saw a pike as item drop but already saw 2 spears/lances

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

spear=lance=pike=javelin, the name is just symbolic.
You want Halberdier and his advancement to use pikes (i.e. spear=lance=pike=javelin=scythe=halberd)?

Xavion
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Joined: January 5th, 2010, 3:49 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xavion »

The spear problem was why I suggested a javelineer upgrade and while a pike isn't that different from a spear halberds and scythes are very different. Plus their unit descriptions mention stopping using spears for other weapons. I also had a think about upgrades for the javelineer and figured out that if you go to level 4 then level 3 should just be a boosted version but wither way for notable features of a max level version giving maim or pierce to thier ranged attack could be interesting and you could probably do something with their melee too.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Level 3 would be enough, just I have no idea how to name that unit, appearance may be just a more armoured Javelineer, and he might have, let's say, a weapon special trickery, that would decrease the enemy's terrain defences. And pierce might be worth giving him as well.

DuckyWucky2
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Joined: May 5th, 2012, 3:50 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by DuckyWucky2 »

In the Library Part Chapter 6, still can't use the whirl to pass the level!? Tried to reaad all the books, TWICE!

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

I thought I fixed it, but don't approach the whirl before reading all books. Touch it after that you read them all. I will fix it.

EDIT: It was fixed only recently, if had not updated it for a few days, it could have occurred. Works on the latest published version.
Last edited by Dugi on September 18th, 2012, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xavion
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xavion »

What would the trickery skill do?, and I'd have no idea what to call them either but maybe you could try making them a javelineer and the default a spear thrower for example but that's not a very good solution. THe thing which makes him different from most other ranged units is that they have a good melee and thier ranged is closer to iron maulers with low attacks and high damage so something that uses that could be good.

Konrad2
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Konrad2 »

dugi wrote:spear=lance=pike=javelin, the name is just symbolic.
i tried to give a pikeman a spear/lance and it said that he seem to prefer more advanced weapons
so i think there IS a difference

bug?: i found a heavy bow and gave it to a elvish marksman
now he has only 2 attacks with bow
i know 100% - 30 % = 70 % and 70% < 75 % (3 attacks) but the difference is smaller then between 70% and 50% (2 attacks)

Xavion
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Xavion »

I've just checked the code and it's actually spear=javelin=lance=spike=trident=trident-blade since it seems to filter based on the attack's name. I can't figure why they would done that to you though unless they're using integer multiplication/divison which always rounds towards zero. To know what the weapons can be used for check the items.cfg file in the utils folder and just search for the type and they should be listed below it.

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Dugi
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Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Dugi »

Oops, I wrote spike instead of pike there. That explains the problem. Will be fixed in the next update.
i know 100% - 30 % = 70 % and 70% < 75 % (3 attacks) but the difference is smaller then between 70% and 50% (2 attacks)
This is the way the game rounds numbers. I might make a special code to make it round in another way, but I also think that if that bow increases damage by 120%, decreasing the number of attacks severely is not a bad idea.

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