"The fellowship of the Clay" Humans gaining ground story

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Ceres
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Ceres » November 28th, 2010, 11:40 am

Here again.
Thanks for the village-storing-code, works perfectly.
But atm, the problems with the dismounting code are:
-if you start a scenario already mounted, there is no stored location and no way to dismount
-(missed this in my first test :oops:) if you move away, no new location is stored, you are only able to dismount to the place where you were before
-after having dismounted to there and mounted again, I was no longer able to dismont (like something with the beside-variable went wrong)

The first point is doable, with [if] and [store_unit].
The second is more problematic, because you'd need to store Clyde everytime he moves anywhere.

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by bigkahuna » November 28th, 2010, 2:36 pm

Ceres, my code blew up too. If you can wait for a bit I will fix it. For now keep what you had I suppose. Sorry :|
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Ceres » November 28th, 2010, 2:49 pm

No problem :wink:.
The first and the second thing can be fixed. The third point is the one which worries me, because I'm seeing no reason why it is like this: if you mount, there should be automatically shown the dismount-button. I hope it does not take that long to find the reason.

Edit: I inserted a moveto-event, and :inspect has shown, that re-storing everytime works. But something with the radius went wrong, there's still no button :hmm:

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Reval » November 28th, 2010, 9:38 pm

Ceres wrote: Edit: I inserted a moveto-event, and :inspect has shown, that re-storing everytime works. But something with the radius went wrong, there's still no button :hmm:
You already speculated that it migth be the besides varibale - maybe if you add a change of the variable when dismounting? Eventually they are besides when Clyde dismounts.

Edit: Ok, just saw that this is already done, hm, stupid problem :hmm:
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by bigkahuna » November 28th, 2010, 10:48 pm

Okay this is for one or both of you. If you've already fixed the first two problems, plug this in.

Code: Select all

			[filter_location]
				[not]
					x,y=$stored_Clyde.x,$stored_Clyde.y
				[/not]
				[and]
				    [not]
					terrain=""
				    [/not]
				[/and]
				[and]
				    x,y=$stored_Clyde.x,$stored_Clyde.y
				    radius=1
				[/and]
			[/filter_location]
Again, plug the terrain codes into the 'terrain=' key between the "" marks. This SHOULD WORK. I am almost positive it will take more than an [and] clause.

NOTE: Use this code to REPLACE the last [filter_location] key.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by bvanevery » November 29th, 2010, 8:35 am

Reval wrote:with Clyde's inspire ability, Legomir should be able to kill a bat every turn).
I failed to notice that Clyde can Inspire. To be honest, the entire concept of Inspiring is somewhat newfangled to me. I believe I've only seen it in add-on campaigns, and I only became familiar with it in Count Kromiere. I've never really done the stat comparison of Inspire vs. Leadership.
So, if you mount at that point, ride as close to the cave as possible and dismount,
Considering that you just told the player to dismount, and mount / dismount mechanics don't exist in any other campaign I've played, and this is only Scenario 3 of the only campaign that seems to do this, I think it's totally unreasonable for you to plan an early scenario in terms of mount / dismount tactics. Maybe after the player has been required to do it for awhile, and has been instructed as to how it's useful, it would be appropriate. For Scenario 3 I think you should plan for Clyde to be dismounted after you told him to dismount.
It is acutally possible for Clyde to become level 4 in scenario 3 depending on expirence gained in Sc 1&2.
Scenario 3 shouldn't be an implicit test of whether you've spent all your time leveling up Clyde in Scenarios 1 and 2. It's awfully early in the campaign to be running "did you level up your leader?" tests on the player.
Because the details of the mounting mechanism (XP, MP, HP...) are pretty complex: Do you think they should be explained somewhere? Maybe in a book that can be found or by the stable lad?
I think you should have a level that's a timed trial, that absolutely requires mount / dismount tactics in order to get through it in time, and that explains at various points how to pull that off. Until you've trained the player in what they can get out of mount / dismount tactics, it's unfair to expect the player to use such tactics as a matter of course.
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Reval
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Reval » November 29th, 2010, 10:03 am

Well, the inspire ability isn't part of the core abilities of Wesnoth. The main advantage of it is that inspire gives a bonus to firends of the same level. More as a consequence, the bonus is also bigger for a lower level unit next to the hero.

About mounting tactics: Since this is probably the biggest novelty of the campaign, it should be the case that it gives you an advantage. Meanwhile, I was a little concerned that it would just be a gimmick. Thus I am glad to have found that you really benefit from it when using it - either for means of transportation/speed or for the other effects it has.

On the other hand, my 'hints' where not supposed to imply that scenario 3 has to be played in this way. In fact, we took all your suggestions into account. So some of the changes for the upcoming update are:

- The stable-lad will explain some of the mounting mechanis to stress this aspect and to make is more transparent.
- The dismounting interface will be changend (thanks to bigkahuna here) in the way the thread already discussed, namely that a rigth-click on the field next to Snow-white will allow you to dismount you to that field. Though this makes a half dozen of menu entries unnecessary, we still have some problems with the code here.
- The enemy leader in scenario 2 also recruits some saurians now. They have a ranged attack and take some land villages.
- The round limit of scenario 3 is increased, the entrance to the cave is widened and there is a small keep close to the entrance to allow more recruitment
- The book in scenario 3 will be taken automaticaly if not taken earlier
- Scenario 4 will be added which is indeed kind of a "timed trial" since it is even called "the race" (though I guess you will find it to easy in the current state)
- Scenario 1 will have two more annimations and some other minor improvements

Thus I would suggest to start playing the campaign from the biggining when the nex update is on the server.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Ceres » December 7th, 2010, 2:28 pm

After some time working, 0.2.0 is out :)
Changelog:
But of course, it may be that we missed something, so feedback would be very appreciated.

Edit: Updated to 0.2.1 - and fixed scenario 5. Changed the gryphon to a normal unit, and fixed a problem with move_unit.

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Stormerdave » December 8th, 2010, 2:07 pm

Ok i just played your campaign as it is with the 5 working scenarios and these are some things i quickly jotted down while playing each scenario.


----scenario 1. the only problem i have with this scenario is there is so many units to move without any actual fighting, as stated in other posts too. maybe you could have just the top 2 peasants in the players control, and the rest as AI computer control. another way to solve this is to have another raid in another direction, like the south-western corner? then the other units down there can do something.

and also the map seemed to be a bit big for my liking, but i guess it wouldn't matter too much if you didnt have the control of so many units.


----scenario 2 is fine, but the unihorse snow-white died and i didnt lose... glitch?

and i think the range of units you can recruit is to large. i think you should take the horse units out, and make them available after the scenario is over. (maybe the guy who asks for help can be a mounted unit instead?)


----the scenario with the bats was interesting, and i didnt have a problem except that it was too easy and i didnt recruit at all.

and also the elvish ranger was pretty usless, but meh.


----number 4 has a glitch. when i played it, after the elvish outrider was attacked he didnt move until he was fully healed. is it ment to be like that?

I like the objective for this campaign, it is different and interesting.



----and the last playable scenario has something in it that i find really annoying. the gyphon seem to want to be killed and attacks the enemy even if it will die on the next turn! now im not saying its a bad thing, it just means you have to place your units more thoughtfully. was this done on purpose? also sometimes you wont make it to save the suicidal gyphon, and you will have to go back some turns to change the outcome.

maybe you can change the gyphon to a sleeping gyphon? and so then you have to beat the enemy to the gyphon before they kill it and then defeat the enemy leader.


Anyway these are some things i just noticed when i was playing the game. i know its not finished and that some things you may be doing for a reason, but its just a few things i thought i would point out.

anyway i liked the Campaign. it seemed in a few ways different from other campaigns and i would love to see it finished. if you need any more help I can if you want, but im not good with coding stuff or art, im only good for thinking of ideas and writing, which you guys seem to have under control.



I'm looking forward to playing the rest!!!
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Ceres » December 8th, 2010, 2:37 pm

Thank you for the feedback, nice to hear that you liked it :)

scenario 1 is an introduction, but of course, it's far too easy. Other raiding orc groups might be a solution.
Stormerdave wrote:scenario 2 is fine, but the unihorse snow-white died and i didnt lose... glitch?
No, that isn't supposed to happen - thanks for reporting.
Stormerdave wrote:the scenario with the bats was interesting, and i didnt have a problem except that it was too easy
I heard different opinions about the difficulty. But it may reqiure some further balancing with gold and villages. Walklas is maybe useless against a bat army, but there will surely be scenarios where is useful.
Stormerdave wrote:number 4 has a glitch. when i played it, after the elvish outrider was attacked he didnt move until he was fully healed
hmm, the outrider should fight a bit, to make the result more various. But it was not planned that he waits until he's fully healed.
Stormerdave wrote:and the last playable scenario has something in it that i find really annoying. the gyphon seem to want to be killed and attacks the enemy even if it will die on the next turn!
I thought I fixed that, but the gryphon's ai did never what I wanted it to do...I ought to change his max MP to 0.

More scenarios will be playable soon.

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Reval » December 8th, 2010, 2:38 pm

Thanks for your comments, Stormerdave! They are very much appreciated.

Stormerdave wrote:Ok i just played your campaign as it is with the 5 working scenarios and these are some things i quickly jotted down while playing each scenario.


----scenario 1. the only problem i have with this scenario is there is so many units to move without any actual fighting, as stated in other posts too. maybe you could have just the top 2 peasants in the players control, and the rest as AI computer control. another way to solve this is to have another raid in another direction, like the south-western corner? then the other units down there can do something.

and also the map seemed to be a bit big for my liking, but i guess it wouldn't matter too much if you didnt have the control of so many units.
As you say, others noeted the same. The reasons the scenario is at it is are: The Wehlot map is the central map of the campaign, it will reapear in scenario 7, 8 (just plot) and 17. True, your two suggestions would make it more intresting and we will think about it. My concerns are however that it would just seem artificial if just the units in the north would be controlable and another raiding party migth result in a quite difficult scenario 1 which is basically intended to be a nice starter. :)

Stormerdave wrote:----scenario 2 is fine, but the unihorse snow-white died and i didnt lose... glitch?
Absolutly! (fortunately you seem to have reloaded.)
Stormerdave wrote:and i think the range of units you can recruit is to large. i think you should take the horse units out, and make them available after the scenario is over. (maybe the guy who asks for help can be a mounted unit instead?)
Definitely worth thinking about. Bur did you really recruit more than one or two riders? We guessed that people will mainly recruit merman as those are most usable in the scenario...
Stormerdave wrote:----the scenario with the bats was interesting, and i didnt have a problem except that it was too easy and i didnt recruit at all.

and also the elvish ranger was pretty usless, but meh.
As the campaign description says, we indeed focused on centering the campaign around the main heros. Because of that, recruits are - at least in the first missions - more 'nice to have' than absolutly needed. That is also the reason for Walklas beeing a Ranger... :)
Balancing of this one seems to be harder though as we hear complaints fromboth directions...

Stormerdave wrote:----number 4 has a glitch. when i played it, after the elvish outrider was attacked he didnt move until he was fully healed. is it ment to be like that?
Hm, very interesting... he never did that when I playtested... we'll investigate
What was you final result and on what difficulty did you play?
Stormerdave wrote:I like the objective for this campaign, it is different and interesting.
Since we really wanted to have some variety from the usual slaughter missions, we are very happy to read that!
Stormerdave wrote:----and the last playable scenario has something in it that i find really annoying. the gyphon seem to want to be killed and attacks the enemy even if it will die on the next turn! now im not saying its a bad thing, it just means you have to place your units more thoughtfully. was this done on purpose? also sometimes you wont make it to save the suicidal gyphon, and you will have to go back some turns to change the outcome.

maybe you can change the gyphon to a sleeping gyphon? and so then you have to beat the enemy to the gyphon before they kill it and then defeat the enemy leader.
On what version did you play? Because we did encounter that absolutly stupid behavior of the gryphon and really hoped we fixed it with 0.2.1.

Stormerdave wrote:Anyway these are some things i just noticed when i was playing the game. i know its not finished and that some things you may be doing for a reason, but its just a few things i thought i would point out.

anyway i liked the Campaign. it seemed in a few ways different from other campaigns and i would love to see it finished. if you need any more help I can if you want, but im not good with coding stuff or art, im only good for thinking of ideas and writing, which you guys seem to have under control.
I'm looking forward to playing the rest!!!
Well, as already, we like to have continous feedback. :wink:
So far, I also think we did manage to advance the campaign pretty steady. Since all maps are already done and the mission plot is also fully laid down, something pretty bad has to happen to stopus from finishing...
Scenario 6 is already in the making. ;-)
Thanks again for the feedback!
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Stormerdave » December 9th, 2010, 2:45 am

Reval wrote:Hm, very interesting... he never did that when I playtested... we'll investigate
What was you final result and on what difficulty did you play?
I think i just played normal, the middle option i cant remember. the final result was that i won by about 4 villages, but if he didnt stop to heal it would've been really close
Reval wrote:On what version did you play? Because we did encounter that absolutly stupid behavior of the gryphon and really hoped we fixed it with 0.2.1.

I played the latest version i think. 0.2.2. and i had to reload many times before i won :/
Ceres wrote:Definitely worth thinking about. Bur did you really recruit more than one or two riders? We guessed that people will mainly recruit merman as those are most usable in the scenario...
I recruited about 3 riders. i just found it a little too easy. maybe have 2 different enemy leaders, one in the water and one in the swamps? this could make it a little harder. but thats just me :)
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Lord-Knightmare » January 1st, 2011, 4:43 pm

I ran into a problem in Scenario 2.
I can't dismount.

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by Reval » January 1st, 2011, 5:12 pm

Lord-Knightmare wrote:I ran into a problem in Scenario 2.
I can't dismount.
Since scenario 2 is the first one where it should work, I guess you weren't yet able to dismount at all, rigth?

Two thinks that I suspect first: It works only after you moved your unit for the fist time (since it is a movoto event) and you have to right-click on a hex next to Clyde to get the dismount option.
You have the newest version, rigth?

Let us now if you figured it out.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Post by king_scrooge » January 8th, 2011, 4:30 pm

This campaign looks like it will be cool once completed, currently I find it to be the easiest campaign. I am glad that you are working on increasing the difficulty. While playing I found the grammar quite atrocious, while personally my grammar is far from perfect I could do better than what has been done. I would be glad to help you with it if help is needed.

No offense to you, or ceres, but when I played it I expected to find it was made by non-english speaking people just because of the poor grammar.

Good luck on the campaign reval and ceres! :wink:

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