"The fellowship of the Clay" Humans gaining ground story

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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Reval » November 5th, 2010, 11:34 am

Dear bvanevery,

bvanevery wrote:I am playing on Wesnoth 1.9.1 development version. I finished your 1st scenario. Then it said "The End;" I didn't get a 2nd scenario. I see that there is actually a 2nd scenario installed on my hard drive, so something must be wrong with your code. I hit "update add-ons" before writing this and no scenario update was loaded.


Since scenario 2 was still under development at the time of the upload, we made scenario 1 also the final mission. The next upload will also include alonger scenario 1. As it turns out, the mounting/dismounting ability of the hero has more pitfall than we initially thought of (e.g. taking care of the MP not to let mounting/dismounting reset them so that indefinite movement is possible). Though even more scenarios are almost done, I guess releasing them makes only sense, if there is a true chance that people can use thier savegames afterwards.

bvanevery wrote:I didn't have a problem with "protect the peasants," although I didn't notice the "death of a peasant" loss condition on my 1st play. Assuming the player doesn't cheat and start moving the peasants before getting Snow-White, there is only 1 peasant who can't run out of range of the orcs on Turn 1. He will be attacked by 1 wolf but it's broad daylight so he's not likely to die on the 1st attack.


Though we didn't do much balancing yet, this was exactly the idea: Some danger, but doable. ;-)
Still, proposals are welcome.

bvanevery wrote:Because I am an experienced Wesnoth player, I set up a screen of spearmen, archers, and my leader to guard the peasants as they run to safety. I even took advantage of AI stupidity, knowing that it would prefer to attack archers, so I put the archers at the ends of the lines where only 1 wolf can reach them instead of 2. This minimizes the number of units attacking any 1 of my units. Thus I took no losses, everyone got back to the castle safely, and it was only a matter of time before I picked off the paltry orc raiding party. If I have a complaint, it's that I had to push around way too many units for not a lot of actual fighting.


True, that is why the next update will drop the "get peasants somewhere" while they still have to survive.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Ceres » November 20th, 2010, 2:50 pm

TfotC 0.1.3 got just released.
Currently there are two playable scenarios, but more are on their way.

The hero is now able to mount and dismount, and actually the only two problems are that because of rounding Clydes hitpoints after mounting/dismountimg decrease by one, and after dismountig both units have the same percentage of HP, independant how many they had before.

Do not hesitate to report bugs, so that I can fix them, as far as I'm the one who does most of the coding.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bigkahuna » November 21st, 2010, 1:25 am

I'm really impressed with the progress in the campaign. I looked at your mounting mechanism and it looks pretty cool :) Good luck getting everything up and running.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bvanevery » November 24th, 2010, 5:18 am

I don't understand the purpose of the ghost in scenario 1. The implication seems to be that I should lead him somewhere. However, there's nothing in his dialogue that suggests where I would lead him. If I lead him to the scenario's exit hex, he's not present in the next scenario. Killing him is easy enough, but that's not leading him. What's the point of killing a random ghost that randomly appears for no good reason? If there's a reason for this ghost to appear, you're not making it clear.

Scenario 2, "Magic Invitation," is extremely easy to beat on Normal difficulty. Is that deliberate? I started with 317 gold, recruited some Mermen Hunters to assist the 2 powerful Mermen that showed up to assist me, and basically walked all over the enemy with 230 gold remaining. I didn't even bother to capture more than a few villages right by my castle.

Seems like there should be 6 directions to dismount, not just "to the left" or "to the right".

I guess Scenario 3 with the bats is not finished? Only the initial bats came after me. Once I killed the necromancer, I was told something about a bookshelf that I hadn't actually seen yet, perhaps because it is obscured by fog? Then I emerged victorious. The End.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Reval » November 24th, 2010, 9:48 am

Thank you for your continous feedback, bvanevery

bvanevery wrote:I don't understand the purpose of the ghost in scenario 1. The implication seems to be that I should lead him somewhere. However, there's nothing in his dialogue that suggests where I would lead him. If I lead him to the scenario's exit hex, he's not present in the next scenario. Killing him is easy enough, but that's not leading him. What's the point of killing a random ghost that randomly appears for no good reason? If there's a reason for this ghost to appear, you're not making it clear.


Ok, there is no real purpose for him except having another fight and another moment to demonstrate Clyde's character. Actually, there was another one (namely that Clyde learned to dismount after the figth) but we moved that moment to scenario two. We will think about making it more explicit.

bvanevery wrote:Scenario 2, "Magic Invitation," is extremely easy to beat on Normal difficulty. Is that deliberate? I started with 317 gold, recruited some Mermen Hunters to assist the 2 powerful Mermen that showed up to assist me, and basically walked all over the enemy with 230 gold remaining. I didn't even bother to capture more than a few villages right by my castle.


Ok, we will boost the nagas a little. Any specific sugestions? Like some villages in the see or making the blackwater soldier staying close to the city? I think he and his friend have already quite an impact.

bvanevery wrote:Seems like there should be 6 directions to dismount, not just "to the left" or "to the right".


Absolutly rigth! It is point two on our to do list but we want to do it rigth and prefent dismounting into a wall.

bvanevery wrote:I guess Scenario 3 with the bats is not finished? Only the initial bats came after me. Once I killed the necromancer, I was told something about a bookshelf that I hadn't actually seen yet, perhaps because it is obscured by fog? Then I emerged victorious. The End.


What do you mean with "only the initial bats"? I fear that you did not had to go into the cave, rigth? (Because there would have been more.) If this is the case, than the reason is that we have trouble with Batryn's AI: On my system he does what he should, namely staying in his keep, while for Ceres, he runs out of the cave. The book shelf is rigth behind his keep (and rigth now, you also have to go there, before killing all the enemies). If you don't bother, you can try another difficulty level - I have the impression that this has an impact on his AI, otherwise stay tuned for the nex update.

Thanks again!
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Ceres » November 24th, 2010, 1:02 pm

bvanevery wrote:Seems like there should be 6 directions to dismount, not just "to the left" or "to the right".

Yes, that is planned. Its a kind of placeholder.
bvanevery wrote:I guess Scenario 3 with the bats is not finished? Only the initial bats came after me. Once I killed the necromancer, I was told something about a bookshelf that I hadn't actually seen yet, perhaps because it is obscured by fog? Then I emerged victorious. The End.

I fixed that now. Seemed like he was running outside because he had canrecruit=no, and counted as a normal attacking unit for the ai. Now his recruit list and the max_moves are modified, and he stays where he is. The bookshelf needs some work, thanks for reminding this :).
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bigkahuna » November 24th, 2010, 11:33 pm

Try this. I added some new code (see the comments), but kept everything else the same. What it will do is let the player dismount wherever he wants as long it is a hex away from Clyde.

In the section of new code, there is a commented-out spot that says 'terrain=????'. I STRONGLY SUGGEST that you put there the terrain codes that you do NOT want Clyde to dismount onto (cave walls, etc) in this form:

terrain=Blah,Blah,Blah (i don't know 1.9 terrain)

Once you have the terrain codes plugged in, take out the # symbol and it should work.

Test this code before junking the rest :) I would hate to see it go to waste if I screwed a part up.

Code: Select all
#define TFotC_DISMOUNTING
                [event]
      name=prestart
      [set_menu_item]
         id=dismount
         description= _ "dismount"
         [show_if]
            [have_unit]
               id=Clyde
               type=Mounted Knight of the Light
            [/have_unit]
            [or]
               [have_unit]
                  type=Mounted White Knight of the Light
                  id=Clyde
               [/have_unit]
            [/or]
            [or]
               [have_unit]
                  type=Mounted Bright White Knight of the Light
                  id=Clyde
               [/have_unit]
            [/or]
         [/show_if]
#New code. What it does is stores the current location of Mounted Clyde and the area immediately adjacent.
#Then, it ONLY lets you select the area around Clyde, so that you don't dismount both units on top of each other.
         [filter_location]
            x,y=$stored_mounted.x,$stored_mounted.y
            radius=1
            [not]
                                                                               #terrain=?????
               [filter]
                  id=Clyde
               [/filter]
            [/not]
         [/filter_location]
#End new code.
         [command]
            [store_unit]
               [filter]
                  id=Clyde
               [/filter]
               variable=stored_mounted
               kill=yes
               mode=replace
            [/store_unit]
            [set_variable]
               name=mounted_percent
               value=$stored_mounted.hitpoints
               divide=$stored_mounted.max_hitpoints
            [/set_variable]
            [set_variable]
               name=stored_horse.hitpoints
               value=$mounted_percent
               multiply=$stored_horse.max_hitpoints
            [/set_variable]
            [set_variable]
               name=stored_clyde.hitpoints
               value=$mounted_percent
               multiply=$stored_clyde.max_hitpoints
            [/set_variable]
            [unstore_unit]
               variable=stored_horse
               find_vacant=yes
               x,y=$stored_mounted.x,$stored_mounted.y
            [/unstore_unit]
            [switch]
               variable=stored_mounted.type
               [case]
                  value="Mounted Knight of the Light"
                  [set_variable]
                     name=clyde_type
                     value="Knight of the Light"
                  [/set_variable]
               [/case]
               [case]
                  value="Mounted White Knight of the Light"
                  [set_variable]
                     name=clyde_type
                     value="White Knight of the Light"
                  [/set_variable]
               [/case]
               [case]
                  value="Mounted Bright White Knight of the Light"
                  [set_variable]
                     name=clyde_type
                     value="Bright White Knight of the Light"
                  [/set_variable]
               [/case]
            [/switch]
            [unit]
               side=1
               id=Clyde
               type=$clyde_type
               name= _ "Clyde"

#New code: the $x1 and $y1 stands for the co-ordinates on which the player clicks.
               x=$x1
               y=$y1
#End new code.
               canrecruit=yes
               experience=$stored_clyde.experience
               moves=0
               [modifications]
                  {TRAIT_FEARLESS}
               [/modifications]
            [/unit]
            [modify_unit]
               [filter]
                  id="Snow White"
               [/filter]
               moves="$($stored_mounted.moves-1)"
               hitpoints=$stored_horse.hitpoints
            [/modify_unit]
            [modify_unit]
               [filter]
                  id=Clyde
               [/filter]
               hitpoints=$stored_clyde.hitpoints
            [/modify_unit]
            [set_variable]
               name=beside
               value=1
            [/set_variable]
         [/command]
      [/set_menu_item]
   [/event]
#enddef
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Ceres » November 25th, 2010, 2:46 pm

Thanks bigkahuna for this code. If I understood right; it works like
-right clicking on a hex adjacent to Clyde
-show mounting-item if the chosen hex is not a cave wall etc.
-create Clyde at the chosen point

It seems also to disallow the player to dismount by clickimg anywhere else at the map.
Does not look like anything will be screwed up by this code, so it will be tested immediately :).
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bigkahuna » November 25th, 2010, 3:00 pm

Ceres wrote:Thanks bigkahuna for this code. If I understood right; it works like
-right clicking on a hex adjacent to Clyde
-show mounting-item if the chosen hex is not a cave wall etc.
-create Clyde at the chosen point

It seems also to disallow the player to dismount by clickimg anywhere else at the map.
Does not look like anything will be screwed up by this code, so it will be tested immediately


That's exactly right! Except for this:
-show mounting-item if the chosen hex is not a cave wall etc.


You'll have to put those terrain codes in yourself (I already have the terrain key plugged in there). So find out the codes for cave wall, water, etc (all the ones which would be strange unmounting onto) and plug those into the 'terrain=' key. When you have them all, just take out the '#'.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bvanevery » November 26th, 2010, 2:03 am

Reval wrote:
bvanevery wrote:Scenario 2, "Magic Invitation," is extremely easy to beat on Normal difficulty. Is that deliberate? I started with 317 gold, recruited some Mermen Hunters to assist the 2 powerful Mermen that showed up to assist me, and basically walked all over the enemy with 230 gold remaining. I didn't even bother to capture more than a few villages right by my castle.


Ok, we will boost the nagas a little. Any specific sugestions? Like some villages in the see or making the blackwater soldier staying close to the city? I think he and his friend have already quite an impact.


You need massively more recruitment on the enemy's part. All he's got are Nagas, which can only melee, which are easy prey for Mermen Hunters that have missile weapons. Either massively more recruitment or an actual force mix, i.e. some Nagas with ranged weapons.

bvanevery wrote:I guess Scenario 3 with the bats is not finished? Only the initial bats came after me. Once I killed the necromancer, I was told something about a bookshelf that I hadn't actually seen yet, perhaps because it is obscured by fog? Then I emerged victorious. The End.


What do you mean with "only the initial bats"? I fear that you did not had to go into the cave, rigth?


On that play only 3 bats appeared, the ones that came when the Elves appeared.

stay tuned for the nex update.


I'm playing it now, on Normal difficulty. Now there are plenty of bats. Too many for 26 turns in caves. That's an extremely short time for marching through caves. Part of the problem is you give bad / misleading advice for the scenario objectives. You say "dismount and follow the forest path." This leads me to believe that recruiting is not particularly necessary, that I'm just supposed to walk Clyde up the forest path and wait for something to happen. There are lots of villages along the way that I could take, for the money, and that can waste time. Why put so many villages there if I'm not supposed to take them? Once the Elves meet me, and I am attacked by bats, I see that I'll actually have to go to this cave and fight somebody. But at that point it's even more of a waste of time to turn around and go back to the castle to recruit. So I press forward... and due to blackness, I have no idea how extensive that cave system is.

I suggest: don't put a recruiting castle at the beginning. The player certainly doesn't need to recruit anything to kill the 3 bats. Put a recruiting castle near the mouth of the cave, or just inside the cave. Otherwise, I think you're pretty much forcing a replay. Not many people are going to get through this without additional recruits, and you have to go back to get recruits, so either way the player runs out of time.

Actually I'm starting to wonder if your scenario is winnable. Admittedly I've been greedy on the past few replays, trying to explore the map and take all the villages in addition to getting through the cave. However, I would have thought that bringing 3 extra bowmen to kill bats would have been enough. It isn't. The bowmen miss a lot and it's rather easy for the bats to bottleneck the small entranceway. On yet another replay, with 3 extra Bowmen and no fooling around grabbing villages, I didn't even capture the first 2 villages in the cave until turn 16. I made it to the western side of the bridge and saw the Necromancer on turn 26, then I lost.

On yet another replay, I recruited 3 bowmen and went immediately to the cave with everybody, including my horse. By some great luck I got the 1st village "for free," there were not bats there yet. Despite this, it took me until turn 16 to get past the 2nd cave village, just as before. This time I am within sight of the bridge on turn 26, haven't seen the Necromancer yet, and I am Defeated.

Ok, as far as I'm concerned your scenario is unwinnable on Normal difficulty. Too many bats that are too difficult to hit, getting in the way of serious choke points, Elves that are worthless for movement in caves, and a leader with no ranged weapon. Clyde gets torn up any time the bats come. Then he has to heal, which makes him pretty useless for pressing the offensive.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Ceres » November 26th, 2010, 9:50 am

Thank you for the Feedback :) .
Yes, we're aware that the campaign strongly needs balancing. Scenario 2 should be harder, there should be more villges for the nagas, and maybe we've to add additional recruits.
In the third scenario, the Sorcerer will get less gold, maybe the tunnel entrance will be made wider, and perhaps also a second castle in the forest near the cave.
As far as this campaign is still in the scenario coding phase, there may be other unbalanced parts, don't hesitate to report them.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Reval » November 26th, 2010, 10:27 am

bvanevery wrote:I'm playing it now, on Normal difficulty. Now there are plenty of bats. Too many for 26 turns in caves. That's an extremely short time for marching through caves. Part of the problem is you give bad / misleading advice for the scenario objectives. You say "dismount and follow the forest path." This leads me to believe that recruiting is not particularly necessary, that I'm just supposed to walk Clyde up the forest path and wait for something to happen. There are lots of villages along the way that I could take, for the money, and that can waste time. Why put so many villages there if I'm not supposed to take them? Once the Elves meet me, and I am attacked by bats, I see that I'll actually have to go to this cave and fight somebody. But at that point it's even more of a waste of time to turn around and go back to the castle to recruit. So I press forward... and due to blackness, I have no idea how extensive that cave system is.

I suggest: don't put a recruiting castle at the beginning. The player certainly doesn't need to recruit anything to kill the 3 bats. Put a recruiting castle near the mouth of the cave, or just inside the cave. Otherwise, I think you're pretty much forcing a replay. Not many people are going to get through this without additional recruits, and you have to go back to get recruits, so either way the player runs out of time.

Actually I'm starting to wonder if your scenario is winnable. Admittedly I've been greedy on the past few replays, trying to explore the map and take all the villages in addition to getting through the cave. However, I would have thought that bringing 3 extra bowmen to kill bats would have been enough. It isn't. The bowmen miss a lot and it's rather easy for the bats to bottleneck the small entranceway. On yet another replay, with 3 extra Bowmen and no fooling around grabbing villages, I didn't even capture the first 2 villages in the cave until turn 16. I made it to the western side of the bridge and saw the Necromancer on turn 26, then I lost.

On yet another replay, I recruited 3 bowmen and went immediately to the cave with everybody, including my horse. By some great luck I got the 1st village "for free," there were not bats there yet. Despite this, it took me until turn 16 to get past the 2nd cave village, just as before. This time I am within sight of the bridge on turn 26, haven't seen the Necromancer yet, and I am Defeated.

Ok, as far as I'm concerned your scenario is unwinnable on Normal difficulty. Too many bats that are too difficult to hit, getting in the way of serious choke points, Elves that are worthless for movement in caves, and a leader with no ranged weapon. Clyde gets torn up any time the bats come. Then he has to heal, which makes him pretty useless for pressing the offensive.


Hi bvanevery,
as allways, your feedback is very valued. We also discussed that the time limit for Sc3 is very hard and we will definitly increase it.
But I can tell you that I was able to play Sc3 on hard in 22 turns - though I certainly know how to do it. (I use two bowman and Clyde and Legomir should be kept together - with Clyde's inspire ability, Legomir should be able to kill a bat every turn). The necromancer only starts to release his bats after you have met Llegomir. So, if you mount at that point, ride as close to the cave as possible and dismount, you should be able to have three units in the cave when you meet the first bats. Another hint would be to advance Clyde to level 3 - he will get a week ranged magic attack and his inspire ability is even more powerfull. It is acutally possible for Clyde to become level 4 in scenario 3 depending on expirence gained in Sc 1&2. You should know that if you have Clyde mounted and earn XP, all the XP are on Clyde's (and not Snow-White's) side - but I admit that he might be overpowerd on level 4...
Another keep in the cave (it isn't thaat extensice, is it?) migth be a very good idea though.

Because the details of the mounting mechanism (XP, MP, HP...) are pretty complex: Do you think they should be explained somewhere? Maybe in a book that can be found or by the stable lad?
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Reval » November 27th, 2010, 1:20 pm

bigkahuna wrote:Try this. I added some new code (see the comments), but kept everything else the same. What it will do is let the player dismount wherever he wants as long it is a hex away from Clyde.

In the section of new code, there is a commented-out spot that says 'terrain=????'. I STRONGLY SUGGEST that you put there the terrain codes that you do NOT want Clyde to dismount onto (cave walls, etc) in this form:

terrain=Blah,Blah,Blah (i don't know 1.9 terrain)

Once you have the terrain codes plugged in, take out the # symbol and it should work.

Test this code before junking the rest :) I would hate to see it go to waste if I screwed a part up.



I don't know if Ceres (he was pretty impressed by your idea as we are allready afraid of not having enough space for our rigth-click menue :lol2: ) has written to you about it, but I'll ask you for another hint anyway:
There are two mayor problems with the code as it is now:
Both are due to the following piece of code:
Code: Select all
         [filter_location]
            x,y=$stored_mounted.x,$stored_mounted.y
            radius=1

1.) At a biggining of a scenario, there is no location stored so that you can dismount to any place of the map
2.) The location isn't updatet for every turn/every movement of Snow-white of Mounted Clyde. This causes that you will only be able to dismount to some fixed area of seven hexes later on.

Any ideas?

Best
Reval
Last edited by Reval on November 29th, 2010, 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby bigkahuna » November 27th, 2010, 4:07 pm

I fixed the code, sent it to Ceres, he tested it and said it worked. He's been offline for like 24 hours, though. He'll update the campaign. Before he does, I did make another mistake with it. Send this patch to him and tell him where it goes.

Replace the [not] clause with this:

Code: Select all
[not]
    [filter_location]
         #terrain=??? ##(add terrain codes that you don't want him to dismount onto)
    [/filter_location]
    [or]
        [filter]
            id=Clyde
        [/filter]
    [/or]
[/not]


And the whole point of the code is that he can ONLY dismount one hex away, no matter the horse's movement points. If you want him to be able to dismount farther away, then change the radius.
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Re: "The fellowhip of the Clay" story about humans gaining g

Postby Reval » November 27th, 2010, 4:37 pm

bigkahuna wrote:I fixed the code, sent it to Ceres, he tested it and said it worked. He's been offline for like 24 hours, though. He'll update the campaign.


No, he won't. That is my job. 8)

bigkahuna wrote:Before he does, I did make another mistake with it. Send this patch to him and tell him where it goes.

Replace the [not] clause with this:

Code: Select all
[not]
    [filter_location]
         #terrain=??? ##(add terrain codes that you don't want him to dismount onto)
    [/filter_location]
    [or]
        [filter]
            id=Clyde
        [/filter]
    [/or]
[/not]


And the whole point of the code is that he can ONLY dismount one hex away, no matter the horse's movement points. If you want him to be able to dismount farther away, then change the radius.


Ok, then I know that it is theoretically fixed. Of yourse a rider can only dismount next to his horse, that is why this setting is the only one making sense.
Thanks again for your help. So everyone can expect an update as soon as Ceres is back.
The Wesnoth Unit Quiz by Flametrooper:
You Scored as Arch Mage - Arrg, just Arch?!?

The Fellowship of the Clay
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