Re: Swamplings - v1.1.7 - for 1.8 and 1.9

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GangrN
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by GangrN »

I fully agree with hermes23's advice: one does not stress the point that "Dire cave" is aesthetically very brilliant, due partly to the fountains, but partly to the mermaid and skeleton episodes.
Maybe you should give opportunity to the player to be trapped by the mermaid?
As for the skeletons, it's difficult. one sees that setting a path to the skeletons fortress would break the rythm of skeleton awakening; on the other hand, the way it is now is boring, mainly because of the turn-by-turn format (it's looong until a skeleton comes up to you, especially if it chooses to regain the towns you captured first).
Mybe the fortress should be nearer so that the skeletons get only one move to attain the enemies - or you could just make them move like a wraith, after all they are not just standard skeletons. And, since they fight alone, maybe you could give each of them a special attack, like arrows of sorrow with slow, or blade of resentment with poison for example (I rely on you for this since you are much more inspired than I am).

Concerning the rat, and since I am the one who said rats should be better swimmers:
I don't think the rat should have that much cover; I think they should have better move in the water, since they are good swimmers. Since they are very small, they should not be much hindred by the swamps, but mountains should slow them (since you have to go up and down and when you have tiny legs it's loooong). In fact I think they should have a 4-hex move and a 1-hex cost everywhere they go, except in mountains and hills where move cost should be 3 and 2.
Meanwhile, they should have ambush in towns sine they can easily hide in a hole. Their defenses should be 50% or more in swamps and forests where you cannot see the ground, 40% in most terrains and only 30% and 20% in water and deep water (they can swim well but cannot dodge as fast as on dry terrain, after all)
Should have this:
Terrain type Cost Defense
Frozen 3 20% (no cover and it's slippery)
Castle 1 60-70%
Sand 2 30% (no cover)
Town 1 70% (plenty of holes, sewers and the like)
Plains 1 40%
Hills 2 40%
Mountains 3 40% (you have to walk twice as long and terrain does not provide much cover for small things)
Swamp 2 50-60% (not seen from above but plants are a hindrance)
Cave 1 60% (plenty of holes to hide, not hindred by terrain)
Deep water 2 20% (can swim everywhere, but cannot dodge)
Shallow water 2 20% (the same as deep water since they are not afoot)
Reef 2 30%
Forest 1 50% (only 1 move cost since they are not hindred by underbush because they are small)
Mushroom 1 50%
Then, depending of the size of your rat, it could as well have ambush in forests, mushrooms, towns, castles, and caves (and you can nerf damage), and skirmish everywhere since it runs past enemies' legs.
:eng: It's a "realistical" point of view, don't feel it a strain.
Regards,

GangrN

gitanomad
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by gitanomad »

While a rat may not be so difficult to hit when in the water, the force of the hit could easily be lost; what I mean to say is that maybe you're more likely to just submerge the rat for a short time before it bobs to the surface again rather than do it much damage. Since coding special resistances for certain types of terrain is probably a big headache, this could be reflected by a higher defense rating... Regardless of verisimilitude, keeping a low hit-point rat alive is hard enough, and I don't mind giving them a slight advantage in certain areas.

Thanks for one of the best campaigns out there!
vcap wrote:Concerning the rat, and since I am the one who said rats should be better swimmers:
I don't think the rat should have that much cover; I think they should have better move in the water, since they are good swimmers. Since they are very small, they should not be much hindred by the swamps, but mountains should slow them (since you have to go up and down and when you have tiny legs it's loooong). In fact I think they should have a 4-hex move and a 1-hex cost everywhere they go, except in mountains and hills where move cost should be 3 and 2.
Meanwhile, they should have ambush in towns sine they can easily hide in a hole. Their defenses should be 50% or more in swamps and forests where you cannot see the ground, 40% in most terrains and only 30% and 20% in water and deep water (they can swim well but cannot dodge as fast as on dry terrain, after all)
Should have this:
Terrain type Cost Defense
Frozen 3 20% (no cover and it's slippery)
Castle 1 60-70%
Sand 2 30% (no cover)
Town 1 70% (plenty of holes, sewers and the like)
Plains 1 40%
Hills 2 40%
Mountains 3 40% (you have to walk twice as long and terrain does not provide much cover for small things)
Swamp 2 50-60% (not seen from above but plants are a hindrance)
Cave 1 60% (plenty of holes to hide, not hindred by terrain)
Deep water 2 20% (can swim everywhere, but cannot dodge)
Shallow water 2 20% (the same as deep water since they are not afoot)
Reef 2 30%
Forest 1 50% (only 1 move cost since they are not hindred by underbush because they are small)
Mushroom 1 50%
Then, depending of the size of your rat, it could as well have ambush in forests, mushrooms, towns, castles, and caves (and you can nerf damage), and skirmish everywhere since it runs past enemies' legs
.

vcap
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by vcap »

Making the rats able to move in deep water would make the sewer part of scenario 5 a significantly different affair though; especially crossing the south part of the bridge would be much more dangerous with the rats able to fight 3 to 1 or more. When i said rats were not much a threat i was working under the assumption that, for the most part, the player would be able to pick them one by one; in groups they can become quite dangerous (this observation also apply to skirmish and ambush, to some extent).

======

Boru, Cat's anti-bat repellent is a nice touch (albeit a little bit of a tomato surprise).
In my case, it did not do her any good in the end, though.
Spoiler:
A similar misfortune happened to Shining in scenario 1.
Spoiler:

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boru
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by boru »

GangrN, I will give your Dire Cave suggestions some consideration. I did intend to open the cave entrance to the 7 Bones sooner in the new update, but somehow this detail got lost in my long long list of planned improvements. Arrows of Resentment ... hmm ...

A lot of what you say about the rat-stats are already there. For example, they already have 4 movement per turn. Ambush and skirmish for a unit that already has 4 attacks? That won't happen for the level zero. For the Bosavi ... I'll think it over.

Your suggestions on movement and defense boil down to this: +10 defense in villages, +10 on hills, -20 on mountains, +1MC+20 cave, deep water no longer impassable, -30 shallow water, +1MC forest, +1MC fungus.

For village, hills and forest, we are in agreement. Mountains, I don't agree with your premise that mountains do not provide much cover. Generally there are lots of loose rock and crevasses. But the smallfoot defense doesn't make as much sense for a rat as it does for most smallfoots (humans), so I'll change mountain defense from 60 to 50. Cave movement should not be the same as a human, so I will change the movement cost to 1. I'll have to do some testing on cave defense, because changing this may completely unbalance the sewer battle. Maybe the Bosavi ought to have better cave defense ... I'll think it over.

Now as for deep water. Did you know saurians can't swim in deep water? Only aquatic units can: merfolk, naga, cuttlefish, and units with the submerge ability.

Gitanomad's point about shallow water is exactly what I was thinking of. An opponent could hit a rat in water but the hit would not have the same damage as it would on other terrain. Again, this is very different from the typical smallfoot - a human standing in shallow water would not have the same defense. It's possible I've set it too high at 50, but 20 is too low. I'll change it to 40 for now and see how that plays.

That leaves us (naturally) with fungus. Why would rats be as fast in fungus as they are on a flat terrain? I would think they'd be slowed somewhat, so the movement cost of 2 will remain for now.
===
Gitanomad, thanks for your comments and I'm glad you enjoyed the campaign so much! Comments like yours keep me going.
===
vcap: aside from your points about rats in deep water being unbalancing, it would be unrealistic to have them on terrain where semi-aquatic races like the saurians are prohibited. Maybe a few skirmishing/ambushing bosavi will appear in hard games, but I think the difficulty of the sewer battle is pretty good for easy and normal.

I concede that the bit with Cat's bodyguards is a surprise, but how is it a tomato surprise? That is, how would it cause you to play the game differently, now that you know what's coming?

I think putting a few hills around her keep will help somewhat, or set her to passive_leader, but if you go after her with three bloodbats, few leaders could stand against that. Certainly not a Rogue. I could give her 20 bodyguards of course, or 200 ... How about a superultra Rogue with 4000 hitpoints?

Looks like Shining ought to be set to passive_leader as well.
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

vcap
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by vcap »

boru wrote:I concede that the bit with Cat's bodyguards is a surprise, but how is it a tomato surprise? That is, how would it cause you to play the game differently, now that you know what's coming?
Because, I now know not to attack her with bats (unless i happen to have a couple of strong blood bats, at night, and she has not good defense). I would be more inclined to use the land forces instead.
boru wrote:I think putting a few hills around her keep will help somewhat, or set her to passive_leader, but if you go after her with three bloodbats, few leaders could stand against that.
With 70% defense, she would have had a good chance to survive my turn. She probably still would have died soon afterward, but her bodyguards would at least have had a chance to put a dent in my aerial forces.
boru wrote:Looks like Shining ought to be set to passive_leader as well.
Definitely.

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boru
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by boru »

vcap wrote:
boru wrote:I concede that the bit with Cat's bodyguards is a surprise, but how is it a tomato surprise? That is, how would it cause you to play the game differently, now that you know what's coming?
Because, I now know not to attack her with bats (unless i happen to have a couple of strong blood bats, at night, and she has not good defense). I would be more inclined to use the land forces instead.
As you probably know, this is exactly why I added bodyguards. There was a complaint or two that this scenario is much too easy because Cat is vulnerable to bats, so this is an attempt to correct that. Okay, I will de-tomatofy the effect by just making the bodyguards appear in the first turn.
vcap wrote:
boru wrote:I think putting a few hills around her keep will help somewhat, or set her to passive_leader, but if you go after her with three bloodbats, few leaders could stand against that.
With 70% defense, she would have had a good chance to survive my turn. She probably still would have died soon afterward, but her bodyguards would at least have had a chance to put a dent in my aerial forces.
In 1.0.9 this is how the bodyguards will be set up:
Spoiler:
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

vcap
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by vcap »

boru wrote:In 1.0.9 this is how the bodyguards will be set up
Perfect!

GangrN
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by GangrN »

vcap wrote:
boru wrote:In 1.0.9 this is how the bodyguards will be set up
Perfect!
Perfect!

As for the rats crossing deep water: I fully agree.
For the rats in shallow water: ok for your theory. I still think that 30% cover applies.

ok for the mushrooms, too. After all, there could be little mushrooms near the ground, too, and maybe you don't sneak in it like in conventional underbush. Ok for mountains, but in that case, be sure to remember that there are much more crevasses and boulders and holes in caves, since the rain/sun/snow alternance did not disrupt them.


As for*
Ambush and skirmish for a unit that already has 4 attacks? That won't happen for the level zero. For the Bosavi ... I'll think it over.
I think they should have very low damage, of course ^^
It depends on what you think: is the "rat" unit a swarm or a lone? If it's a lone, it should have 1-1 or 1-2 (who could care for a lone rat, even if it's the size of a cat? it could be a threat for a drunk student or a lone damoiselle, but not for a tough warrior - but it would be very hard to hit) and even as a swarm, it should have 1-4 or 4-1, so ambush and skirmish would not be overpowered at all ^_^
It's not a power-up, it's another, "naturalistic" rat concept: feeble, low damage and hp, but uncatchable and very hard to hit, a perfect companion to practice the art of backstabbing since it distracts opponents and runs past their legs :eng:
Regards,

GangrN

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boru
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Re: Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by boru »

I appreciate all your input on this, but unfortunately those changes would completely unbalance the battle in the sewer. The rats would surround Clammie, Greta and Kennison and they'd be stuck until the number of turns ran out. I have to balance what's realistic against what is fun, and fun comes first.
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

GangrN
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Re: Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by GangrN »

Having a skrimisher companion would be fun :mrgreen:, and it would not be overpowered for lvl1 - look at saurians.
But again, it's your game.
Regards,

GangrN

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boru
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Re: Swamplings - v1.0.8 - 14 scenarios complete

Post by boru »

Skandix says he wants to be the only skirmishing companion, but I'm ignoring him.

I'll test skirmish on Bosavis and we'll see how it goes.

I won't have internet access for the next few days. I'm not sure when I'll be back in touch.

Thanks again for all the ideas.
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

Tet
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Re: Swamplings - v1.1 - for 1.8 and 1.9

Post by Tet »

i resently downloaded and played on 1.8 a week ago. after the direwolf cave i noticed a missing unit file. goblin knight 2sw was missing. replacement was easy.

the new goblins do not apear totally balanced. i noticed some riblib or however you call getting worse on advancement. picking up the spear in direwolf cave is a challange if everybody is allready a rider.

direwolfs as wolf advancement are lacking the poison.

Some main sprite differentiation would be great for advanced pillager and spearmen.

The regular wolf rider do not get swampsavy upon advancement.

The bosavi amlas were all available only once.

There was definetly a problem with my recall list. Unit did not show up there at all after szenario. At one point I had 2 Kennisons on the list.

One more thing: the skeleton boss did not get out of the cave in direwolf cave. I had to fly in and kill him with bats. Very disturbing. Maybe make him more aggressiv.

Great campaign with lots of entertaining dialogs and great utilisation of user made content.
My Temple Project: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=29800
This is "must-play" campaign! Don´t read the thread, unless you need help. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31895

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boru
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Re: Re: Swamplings - v1.1 - for 1.8 and 1.9

Post by boru »

Tet, thanks very much for your comments. I don't have time to answer each point right now but I will give you a detailed reply when possible.

EDIT: Okay, it turns out I have some free time after all ...
Tet wrote:i resently downloaded and played on 1.8 a week ago. after the direwolf cave i noticed a missing unit file. goblin knight 2sw was missing. replacement was easy.
Okay, I'm not sure how that happened but I'll fix it in the next update.
Tet wrote:the new goblins do not apear totally balanced. i noticed some riblib or however you call getting worse on advancement. picking up the spear in direwolf cave is a challange if everybody is allready a rider.
You're correct that the custom units are not totally balanced yet. I'm still trying different things with them so if you have specific ideas about certain units I'm interested in hearing them. Which unit do you think gets worse on advancement?
If you only have wolf riders in your game, the multi spear is useless, but you can recruit a goblin from one of the keeps and send him to get it (don't send him without support troops though).
Tet wrote:direwolfs as wolf advancement are lacking the poison.
This is intentional. The mainline description of the direwolf rider explains that the direwolf's poison is not a natural poison, but one that is added by the goblins.
Tet wrote:Some main sprite differentiation would be great for advanced pillager and spearmen.
Eventually this will be done. But I'm picky about the art in my campaign so it may take a while.
Tet wrote:The regular wolf rider do not get swampsavy upon advancement.
Actually I never considered that. I think Eeep is the only swamp savvy wolf rider in the game. Okay, swamp savvy does not really change their stats too much. The only scenario it would really be useful in is Thunderstruck. I'll probably add it, if it does not make Thunderstruck too easy in my testing.
Tet wrote:The bosavi amlas were all available only once.
They worked when I tested them, but I've made a lot of revisions to the bosavi since then so it's possible something got broke.
Tet wrote:There was definetly a problem with my recall list. Unit did not show up there at all after szenario. At one point I had 2 Kennisons on the list.
If you can tell me when you first started noticing problems, that would help me fix them. There were a lot of problems with this in the past but I thought they were all fixed.
Tet wrote:One more thing: the skeleton boss did not get out of the cave in direwolf cave. I had to fly in and kill him with bats. Very disturbing. Maybe make him more aggressiv.
Tyranny already is at aggression=1 which I believe is the top value. I think I will need to experiment with caution now, because he does appear to act unusually cautious.
Tet wrote:Great campaign with lots of entertaining dialogs and great utilisation of user made content.
I'm very glad you enjoyed it. Thanks again for your comments.
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

Tet
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Re: Re: Swamplings - v1.1 - for 1.8 and 1.9

Post by Tet »

boru wrote: If you can tell me when you first started noticing problems, that would help me fix them.
Defineteley in "Mr.Blydd". 2 Kennisons. I recalled both. I lost one without noticing. I lost Misri (on wolve) without noticing, not even noticing a dialog. After that it was more crazy. units did not change to my side. Units I have seen at the end got lost. It might have todo with dialogs poping up after recalling and/or after smacking end boss.

I would allow this spear for Eep, Misri and what was the boss again?. Even on wolve. Can you take the spear and change to wolve rider afterwards?

I customized my goblins (only in 1.6) long ago and gave every single one a spear with an attack less strong than the regular one additionally. On wolves the fighting values are resembling the animal. The rider is only the "bus driver". I did not like that. So a lvl 1 rider got a lvl0 spear attack and so on. I would consider to make wolf rider race goblins instead of wolves. Maybe a doublicate of wolves called goblin_rider or so.

Do you have a excel sheet with the main stats of all your goblins? If so please post it. That makes sugguestions much easier.
My Temple Project: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=29800
This is "must-play" campaign! Don´t read the thread, unless you need help. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31895

vcap
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Re: Swamplings - v1.1 - for 1.8 and 1.9

Post by vcap »

Tet wrote:i recently downloaded and played on 1.8 a week ago. after the direwolf cave i noticed a missing unit file.
Which means that you used the same version of Swamplings all along, correct?

(i ask because switching versions along the way can lead to that sort of troubles wrt recalling units).

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