The Earth's Gut for BfW 1.16

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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

Anonymissimus wrote:
StandYourGround wrote: 1)- In "Lost", Dulatus spawned in the water, even though I had done the cave scenario, and not the mountain one.

2)- While the undead spawns were too much in the last version, now they are pushovers that serve best for farming XP before finishing. I used nearly all the turns to gather XP, and only ever saw two spawns total: the one that was already out before I joined the fight, and another that came later. As a difficulty meter, this is the first time I ever played this scenario through without even the threat of losing the ulf to a surprise dread bat. (I also noticed that Dulatus was met with about half as many bats as normal at the beginning of the scenario.

3)- In the beginning of "Unusual Allies", a level 1 Hamel spawns at the keep. Oddly, I can recruit/recall (only trolls) with either the new Hamel or Dulatus on the keep! :| (Cool in a way, since I didn't even know that could be done in Wesnoth) In addition, the death of this new Hamel does not trigger a scenario lost.

Enduring bugs from last version:

4)- Killing the yeti in "Up the Mountain" does not grant any XP.

5)- The Dwarvish Scout unit line have the incorrect base frames, though the animations are correct.

6)**IMPORTANT The Hamel bug is worse than I thought. When I got to the second scenario, the new Hamel replaced Dulatus as the leader, and Dulatus was in the recall list. When I saw this, I went back to the last turn of the previous scenario, and used a little debug witchery to kill off the second Hamel before finishing. Even then, the result was the same in the second scenario. :x
Well, since you're not in danger of loosing units it has to be made more difficult by other means. :lol:

1), 3) and 6) could be caused by the fact that you haven't used the latest version (0.0.13a). It's the severe bug mentioned above. Savegames from a few versions before probably also don't work.
4) seems to be an engine bug:
http://gna.org/bugs/?15203
5): Don't know about that, but the Dwarvish Scout is no longer a custom unit, since it is included in mainline in BfW 1.7. If you experience problems, it should be the mainline unit's fault.
As for 2): I've lowered the difficulty after your last feedback. The difficulty also seems to in general vary a lot in that one.

A short summary of this post could be "For every problem that you face in this campaign, simply blame the engine, blame mainline, but don't blame me!" :lol:

Did you use an old savegame from 1.6 ? That could e.g. explain the problems with the scout...

/edit
1) should work better now
3) and 6) do (no longer ?) happen in my tests
5) happened for me too, but went away after deleting TSoG and restarting wesnoth so it's an image overwrite bug from that add-on
1) I have been using 0.0.13a, on a fresh start of the campaign.

2) Perhaps to make my problem easier to understand, the first version of Dwarven Kingdom I played had a nicely challenging balance, while somewhat frustrating at how hard it was to preserve the ulfserker, but still enjoyable. The first 1.8-based version I played had the undead and trolls apparently spawning too early. This had the effect of the undead apparently beating the trolls much sooner, and resulted in such a thick swarm of undead on me immediately, that it was impossible (sans debug) to continue. In the latest version, It seems that the undead presence overall has been at least halved, keeping them in a stalemate with the allied trolls, making it far too simple to tip the balance and wipe them out. What I think would solve the problem would be to have the undead numbers increased to about the strength they were in the earlier version (before 1.8 compatibility), and the undead and trolls not spawning at least until the caged troll is first discovered. This would give more time to make it to the keep and begin an attack. A slight increase in the original troll recruits may be helpful, as it will help the AI trolls hold out longer before the Undead start to gain too much ground.

3) Not much to say on this one. I'll be glad when it's fixed, but I think the code that caused this really should be preserved and developed. Having the capability of multiple recruiting leaders on the same team could be quite fun. I can already think of how interesting it would be for IftU if Galas would have to be on the keep to recruit elves, and Mal Keshar to recruit undead...

4) Ah, well in that case, I'll blame the engine for this one. "BAD ENGINE! You should be ashamed!" :lol2:

5) I'll buy it. Until TSoG is updated, I won't be playing it. In the mean time, it should be a simple image swap to prevent that from occurring, anyway.

6) Okay... just downloaded 0.0.13b. I'll let you know later. Time for another playthrough...

EDIT: Just some other small things that annoyed me, that I have yet to see if the new version fixes:

I. In "Towards the West Gate", The dialog about how week the orcish units are is never spoken.

II. Even though Clarissa was leveled down the Red line, when she killed an undead unit in "Unknown Tunnels," she used the dialog that would only seem appropriate for a White Mage ("…May you be blessed by the light of white magic")

III. In "The Bridge is Broken", Clarissa happened to be the unit that was attacked by undead flying over the chasm, so she ended up talking to herself. In that situation, perhaps a nearby dwarf should speak the lines about the undead attacking (In a similar fashion to how you already have it configured so a dwarf will speak Clarissa's lines at the beginning if Clarissa died before this scenario). Considering that Clarissa was already far more knowledgeable in such matters, she would be unlikely to be so surprised anyway. :)

EDIT: (I do make a lot of edits, but only because I avoid making double posts)

I noticed the yellow glow from the fists of the ice troll seemed out of place, so here's a quick edit with a icy blue glow:
Attack Frame
Attack Frame
ice_troll-ranged.png (9.48 KiB) Viewed 4219 times
Is that an improvement?
Last edited by StandYourGround on January 29th, 2010, 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

StandYourGround wrote: I. In "Towards the West Gate", The dialog about how week the orcish units are is never spoken.
works for me
II. Even though Clarissa was leveled down the Red line, when she killed an undead unit in "Unknown Tunnels," she used the dialog that would only seem appropriate for a White Mage ("…May you be blessed by the light of white magic")
next rewrite to implement is the one for scenario #4 so you can change that dialog if you like
but the general sense of the event should stay
III. In "The Bridge is Broken", Clarissa happened to be the unit that was attacked by undead flying over the chasm, so she ended up talking to herself. In that situation, perhaps a nearby dwarf should speak the lines about the undead attacking (In a similar fashion to how you already have it configured so a dwarf will speak Clarissa's lines at the beginning if Clarissa died before this scenario). Considering that Clarissa was already far more knowledgeable in such matters, she would be unlikely to be so surprised anyway. :)
works for me
there is (has always been) an appropriate if clause
Is that an improvement?
nice
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

next rewrite to implement is the one for scenario #4 so you can change that dialog if you like
but the general sense of the event should stay
Sure. I guess Red-Mage Clarissa should simply say a more generic thing, since a blessing of fire magic doesn't seem to be a very restful or peaceful sounding blessing. ("You are free from your chains, spirit")

By the way, I never know how much is enough when rewriting dialog... I do what I can to make the dialog not seem very different, just improved. It's not my campaign, so I'm not just going to just change story elements or (re)define a character's personality traits, unless that was all right. In the scenario "Lost," for example, I would like to add a lot more dialog for Pelcatlus the ulfserker, always in a rushed, repeated, frantic style of speaking. His first conversation when Dualtus discovers him could be something like...

Pelcatlus: "Step away from my house, varmint! Away, away! Now, ya stinkin' smelly pests, or I'll... I'll lay me axe to ye, and ye won't live to see... to see... uh, Oh! Yer not, yer not..."

Dulatus: "I am not a blasted bat, if you just now noticed, fellow dwarf!"

Pelcatlus: "But yer not, I mean I have not, I mean... But... Yer a dwarf like me!"

Dulatus: "Indeed, or that which is left of one. I suppose I'm trapped down here with you..."

Pelcatlus: (laughs) "Ho, yes! Yes, down 'ere in my home, you are! Trapped down here in this god-forsaken pit, yes, indeed!"

Dulatus: "How long have you lived here, whoever you are..."

Pelcatlus: "Who am I? (laughs) Haha, you do not know? You do not know me, Pelcatlus the warrior!"

Dulatus: "I never knew a Pelcatlus..."

Pelcatlus: "Too bad! He would have loved to met you! HAHA, how silly, I'm Pelcatlus, of course! Lost down here after many years of fighting them bags o' bones that attacked us! Too bad, we lost the fights! Yes we did, fightin' them until we could fight no more, then gettin' lost in these rocks! If I ever saw one o' them again, I would attack until I could fight no more, just as before!"

Dulatus: "You were one of the dwarves that mined here before?"

Pelcatlus: "I was? Really? That's amazing! (laughs)"

-------

Basically, that conversation could take a while, but that's just because of how crazy and berserk poor Pelcatlus is, you know. :) I would also want to give him dialog for kills he makes, especially something very maniacal to accompany any encounter with a Dark Adept. :twisted:
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

StandYourGround wrote:Pelcatlus: "Step away from my house, varmint! Away, away! Now, ya stinkin' smelly pests, or I'll... I'll lay me axe to ye, and ye won't live to see... to see... uh, Oh! Yer not, yer not..."

Dulatus: "I am not a blasted bat, if you just now noticed, fellow dwarf!"

Pelcatlus: "But yer not, I mean I have not, I mean... But... Yer a dwarf like me!"

Dulatus: "Indeed, or that which is left of one. I suppose I'm trapped down here with you..."

Pelcatlus: (laughs) "Ho, yes! Yes, down 'ere in my home, you are! Trapped down here in this god-forsaken pit, yes, indeed!"

Dulatus: "How long have you lived here, whoever you are..."

Pelcatlus: "Who am I? (laughs) Haha, you do not know? You do not know me, Pelcatlus the warrior!"

Dulatus: "I never knew a Pelcatlus..."

Pelcatlus: "Too bad! He would have loved to met you! HAHA, how silly, I'm Pelcatlus, of course! Lost down here after many years of fighting them bags o' bones that attacked us! Too bad, we lost the fights! Yes we did, fightin' them until we could fight no more, then gettin' lost in these rocks! If I ever saw one o' them again, I would attack until I could fight no more, just as before!"

Dulatus: "You were one of the dwarves that mined here before?"

Pelcatlus: "I was? Really? That's amazing! (laughs)"
That is basically ok. Though in general, I do not want dialogs become so large that the player yearns for their endings like in "A gryphon's tale", where many dialogs simply are there to say anything, but not to say something meaningful, and the player needs to read it all because there can be hints on how to play the scenario.
And here in particular, you want to change Pelcatlus' origin from "washed down by the river" to "the original dwarves".
That is ok but keep in mind
-He shouldn't know much about the original events that made the surviving dwarves flee.
-I've set the dwarves' life span (200-250 years) to a bit less than the elves' one, that is too short...we could introduce some sort of magic that increases life expectancy like it is done with Kalenz (who is born at about 0 YW and still around at about 500 YW)...
[EDIT]
Pelcatlus should be the last survivor of a small colony that was left back trapped after the original events. The rare resources and the attacks have reduced the colony. So he has been born (dwarvish women ???) later. This also means that he knows the original events only from tales.
[/EDIT]
Furthermore, your dialog just gave me the idea that Pelcatlus could speak about himself (single person) as "we" - Gollum in Lord of the Rings does the same.
especially something very maniacal to accompany any encounter with a Dark Adept. :twisted:
good idea
there is already an easter egg that plays at the start of the attack so we could put it into an attack end event
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

I had actually already thought of having him refer to himself as "we", but I didn't include it because I thought it was too much like Gollum. But, I really do like the idea, so I will add it in. In the mean time, what do you think of the following in the spoiler box? I just wrote it up as a draft idea for a major plot device. It will change some storyline elements a bit (and also makes the previous dialog I was suggesting in the previous post somewhat obsolete), but it would make Pelcatlus a much more intriguing character, like the Cloaked Assasin from UtBS...
Spoiler:
Coming soon, my drafts on the name and purpose of the mysterious clan of necromancers, as well as an idea for how the final climatic battle scenario will take place…
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

I like it, partly. But it is probably way too complicated to implement that way - there are too many [if][have_unit] conditions, resulting in too many possible ways that the events could take place. Starting with Pelcatlus' appearance: Just in case the player doesn't take the villages, he never appears, currently. But the [if][have_unit] for Celylia and Clarissa are worse. We could work around that by making all three "must-be-alive" units, though...
What I don't like about the draft is that it does (not yet) include the Hammer of Thursagan, which is to be found by the original members of the dwarf settlement, corrupts them partly, and then returned to Kal Kartha by our heroes.
Also, keep in mind that implementing such a plot can last several years...(LoW was developed at least 4 years until it finally became mainline I believe...)

EDIT
Most of my thoughts so far for the complete plot (that is, until the campaign's end, but not very detailed) are in a code box on side 2 in this thread. Much of it also becomes visible in scenario #13.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

Interesting points, and I think I can answer a few of them. In "Lost", you could have Pelcatlus charge out of a mushroom patch as soon as Dulatus enters his living area. It makes sense, considering Pelcatlus' dependence on mushrooms. As for the plot being incomplete, this is intended to be a minor plot. The lich that made the mind-control potion is a minor figure, perhaps slightly detached from the clan as a rebellious upstart (after all, he's making potions to enslave his foes rather than killing them). I think you might like my draft for the true boss, coming soon. It definitely involves portals, and I could easily add a hammer for flavor. :)
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

(a rare case of double-posting, to bump the topic with my plotline contributions....)

Before I dive in to describing my take on the lich clan and what purpose they serve, and if/how this is related to the Hammer of Thursagan, here are some suggestions to possibly make the previous plot suggestions fit better with the campaign and hopefully make them easier to code (I hope):

For Pelcatlus' (or Mosh as we know him so far) insane rampages before his final recapture: After Pelcatlus disappears partway through "Unusual Allies", he reappears about every other scenario, attacking anything he finds until he is subdued. In what would basically be a small mini-campaign, Hamel is to make the decision of whether or not to pursue Pelcatlus and make sure he is dealt with before trying to take on the undead masters of the caverns:

- If no, then everything proceeds normally until the encounter with the first ancient lich, who has Pelcatlus at his side, directly controlled. Pelcatlus can be freed if he is still alive at the end of the battle, and he will tell his tale then.

- If yes, then we enter into an optional scenario where Hamel & Co. have tracked Pelcatlus down, and cornered him in a small cavern. For the safety of the group, only Hamel, Dulatus, and Aiglathing enter to fight Pelcatlus. Pelcatlus is aware that he's trapped, and fights more carefully, using a rage attack instead of berserk. Unknown to the party, Celylia enters without permission (if she is still alive) and flanks Pelcatlus, slowing him before he can get too far. This makes the battle fairly tame, and Pelcatlus is quickly subdued and cured by Celylia. The narration for the next scenario will include Pelcatlus' story. With this setup, Only one if/have needs to be there, at the start of the scenario. If Celylia is not alive, then the heroes have to rough it without her, using Aiglathing to slow him if we can move him close enough safely. Once he is defeated, he will simply be killed, as keeping him alive is far too dangerous. (for following scenarios, the if/have will be whether we have Pelcatlus, and that will be only for dialog anyway)

- For the first ancient lich encounter (again, a minor battle. This ancient lich is not the BIG BAD, just a troublesome minion along the way to the BIG BAD), it would be somewhat more complicated, since there are 4 possibilities:
1. Pelcatlus was not pursued when the option was given, and was captured by the ancient lich before the scenario. In this case, he is already in a secondary keep, recruiting walking corpses for protection.

2. Pelcatlus was pursued and killed, because Celylia was not alive. In this case, The scenario is a basic battle, with only the ancient lich's army to deal with.

3 and 4. For both of these, Pelcatlus is a loyal unit on Hamel's side at the start. If Clarissa is not alive, the lich will assume control of Pelcatlus, and move him to his secondary keep. If Clarissa is alive, Pelcatlus is petrified by her to stop the lich, and the spell cannot be broken unless by Clarissa's own choice, or her death.

If it is all to complicated, I understand. If I had the time, I'd love to figure out the code myself, since I think it would add so much to the plot. But now... The lich's story....
Spoiler:
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

Dude, that's all way too much and complicated. You've great fantasy, but there's a reason why there are so many campaign upstarts with stories which never get finished. This campaign is already overloaded with complex wml I fear...
Maybe I can strip down the Pelcatlus side-story to include it...
-make him a must-have unit in Lost (this already includes changing the event that makes him appear, change/add die event, change objectives, and testing all these...)
-make it clear to the player that Pelcatlus will disappear (I hate investing in loyal units which get killed wml-wise - see UtbS)
-he disappears at start of "Unusual allies"
-if <some condition>, the extra "taming" scenario takes place (about #18-#19)
<some condition> could be Hamel's choice, but the scenario needs to be very dangerous, then
if successful, story is told and Pelcatlus is on Hamel's side again
-in a later scenario (battle against corrupted hammer-dwarf-lich), Pelcatlus fights as enemy if not tamed
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

Heh, that simplification works fine. My story elements are in many ways very similar to UtBS. Pelcatlus us much like the Cloaked Assassin, and the Portal like the Central Body at the end of UtBS. I guess I can be too ambitious. It would make sn amazing Dwarvn Kingdom version 2. :)
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

You need to make your own campaign to get an idea. As a rule of thumb, look at the monster comic relief in scenario #3, that required an additional event and some other changes, can be done in two hours or so. That's about the complexity I'm willing to add...
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by StandYourGround »

Thanks anyway, at least for the chance to have some good fun writing, and being able to contribute to your campaign. I will soon get around to finishing dialouge rewrites. Do you mind if I still sneak in little bits of my plot ideas, as a way to add a little depth and tie some loose ends? I'm also coming up with "auxillary dialog" that does not add to the story, but rather develops the characters. I think I will post further updates in more of a script format, so you can see how the conversations will flow and fit with the scenarios.
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

StandYourGround wrote:Do you mind if I still sneak in little bits of my plot ideas, as a way to add a little depth and tie some loose ends?
I can't tell...I'll see.
Next rewrite to implement is scenario #5b. I suggest making Clarissa's special event type-dependant - some dialog for a white mage and some for the fire type.
Last edited by Anonymissimus on February 21st, 2010, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by RockScorpion »

Possible bug: in "Save the Heir" after bring Konrad to the icon the objective changes and I must resist for 5 turns, but after the 5 turns nothing happens.
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Re: Campaign: Dwarven Kingdom (BfW1.7.x/1.8.x)

Post by Anonymissimus »

RockScorpion wrote:Possible bug: in "Save the Heir" after bring Konrad to the icon the objective changes and I must resist for 5 turns, but after the 5 turns nothing happens.
Thanks a lot. I've uploaded a fix (an unsatisfying, though...).

@SYG, I've fixed the Hamel bug. It did only appear in 1.7.13. Again it was the engine - not necessarily a bug, though.
New version is up, rewrites until scenario #7 are implemented. When doing the rewrite for scenario #8, please make only some extra dialog and the special event when Pelcatlus kills a DA. Anything else will probably require too much changes for now, sry. Maybe when the campaign is finished, then...

EDIT
Bug reported RockScorpion is completely fixed.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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