The Earth's Gut for BfW 1.16

[spir]

Thanks for the positive and comprehensive feedback.

My pleasure! (really!)


Right. I share and/or understand your replies on:
* naming
* style/translation (if ever the campaign is successful and will be translated anyway, you may consider writing the original version in german, with or without styling help)
* more "fleshy" characters (unKISSy coding issue)
* the survival scenario (but surprised you dislike it so much -- I enjoyed it, and my trolls loved it )
* all points about the berserker (and yes, keep the unit type)
* unprobable alliances

The balancing task is the most comprehensive part of campaign making, even more than debugging I believe. There are even severe balancing issues in mainline campaigns like e.g. LoW...Is there a way to balance scenarios other than by playtesting ? That'd be very helpful. I play a specific scenario, and change gold/income/turns a bit until the next time-consuming trial...

Well, I'm designing a tool script that (hopefully) may be a fair help for such tasks, see statistics on multiple and variant scenario auto plays. Actually, I started weeks ago, and it is designed, but the implementation was delayed because of very interesting issues on WML semantic level. A couple of days, if you're interested.

I'd recommend making the elf shaman a sylph and the mage a great mage since their loyal trait is most useful then. However, on hard the dwarf healers aren't recruitable, so one may want to have another healer.

Right, I may follow your hint when replaying (which I'll probably do soon to try the alternative branch after yeti and test the new scenario). But this I guess only makes sense for the player on replay, when fully aware of the dwarf shaman/healer line capabilities and of the still-to-come elf shaman ally, don't you think so? When I first played I think I still did not have any darf healer (level2) when met the mage.

[spir]

[double posting erased]

[Anonymissimus]

Well, I'm designing a tool script that (hopefully) may be a fair help for such tasks, see statistics on multiple and variant scenario auto plays. Actually, I started weeks ago, and it is designed, but the implementation was delayed because of very interesting issues on WML semantic level. A couple of days, if you're interested.

As far as I can see that is ai vs ai ? It'd be little help since humans play much better than ais...

Right, I may follow your hint when replaying (which I'll probably do soon to try the alternative branch after yeti and test the new scenario). But this I guess only makes sense for the player on replay, when fully aware of the dwarf shaman/healer line capabilities and of the still-to-come elf shaman ally, don't you think so? When I first played I think I still did not have any darf healer (level2) when met the mage.

Right. In HttT I made Elrian a white mage when playing first. And I left Isle of the Damned without Moremirmu. And and and...
I want people to play again, don't I ? Such as needing to replay the whole campaign just because of some diverging campaign paths.


Changed my mind on the healer line names. If it's based on science, it'd probably be better to avoid the term "rune" at all, since the runelore is currently lost anyway (in 515YW when the campaign is set.)

1: Dwarvish Medical Student = Zwergenmedizinstudent
2: Dwarvish Internist = Zwergeninternist
3: Dwarvish Head Doctor = Zwergenchefarzt
The description focuses on science then, no longer any connection to the elf shaman.
"Due to their general lead in technology, some dwarves have also developed special techniques to cure their people. Little is known about it or even understood by other races, but they make heavy usage of bandages, medicinal herbs and else."
So it matches the thunderer's gun description, that it is not understood by other races that are using magic instead. I think that's right now.

[spir]

1: Dwarvish Medical Student = Zwergenmedizinstudent = Etudiant en médecine nain
2: Dwarvish Internist = Zwergeninternist = Interne nain
3: Dwarvish Head Doctor = Zwergenchefarzt = Médecin chef nain.

Sounds wrong to me in all 3 languages (ich kann auch Deutsch lesen).

I guess you're erring on this point. That the BfW dwarves are supposed to develop a kind of proto-techno-science, even more advanced (if only for the sake of our gaming needs ) than in the fantasy worlds, is right. That they have the same cultural references as ours (!) to the point of naming healers with the same titles is wrong. They have wordings of theirs -- that fit their collective lore and individual mindsets; or better: Weltanschauung.
There is nothing wrong anyway in naming a dwarf skill or status using "rune" even if the purely "runic" knowledge is lost for a while: that they cannot eg read runes anymore does not mean "runesmith" has disappeared from their lexicon, and even less "rune".
Also, don't forget that languages are extremely conservative. They are living folk memories, even when individuals or whole people have forgotten all of their own history details. Millenaries after your tale, wesnoth dwarves will still have "rune" at every corner of their language's set of idioms, whatever happens to rune art; even is no one knows anymore what this very word alone is supposed to refer to...
This does not mean anyway you should use "rune*" .

I started to replay already, so one more thing: In the first scenario (I mean 1st battle), there is now shroud kind of licking the cave rock. While it's certainly a good idea, the visual effect is ugly to my eyes, for any reason. Looks frightening and... ghostly. What do you think? Don't know your intent, and no idea how you code that in WML, but have you tried FoW instead?
Also, you write "save" for "safe" (also later in the campaign) and "here" for "hear" in the story.
HTH

[Anonymissimus]

1: Dwarvish Medical Student = Zwergenmedizinstudent = Etudiant en médecine nain
2: Dwarvish Internist = Zwergeninternist = Interne nain
3: Dwarvish Head Doctor = Zwergenchefarzt = Médecin chef nain.

*sigh*
Yes I agree that these names are too human-like, too "modern".
But if I use "rune" in the names I have to explain
-why the word is in the name, what runelore has (had) to do with healing
-why the word is still there and the healers can still heal, although runelore is currently lost

I started to replay already, so one more thing: In the first scenario (I mean 1st battle), there is now shroud kind of licking the cave rock. While it's certainly a good idea, the visual effect is ugly to my eyes, for any reason. Looks frightening and... ghostly. What do you think? Don't know your intent, and no idea how you code that in WML, but have you tried FoW instead?

Fog of war isn't suitable for a cave scenario, or does your abbreviation mean something else ? (Fog in caves ? They have constant climax...)
I thought that it looks weird being able to "see" cave wall that is unreachable/hidden behind rock and thus can't be "seen".
Implementation is easy, it's store_locations for [not]terrain=cavewall and then looping over that array removing shroud at single hexes.

and "here" for "hear" in the story.

where is that ?

[StandYourGround]

What about some of the other ideas I gave for the dwarf healer? Here is a modified version of one of my previous submissions, with draft unit descriptions:

Alchemist, Potion Smith, Medicine Master:

Level 1 - The practice of Alchemy among Dwarves began as an attempt to produce gold and other valuable resources from worthless rock. A dismal failure, the practice was shunned and mocked by many. Despite that, many dwarves continued in the study and medicine was discovered. As a matter of tradition, any dwarf who enters the medical profession begins as an Alchemist and is expected to be able to make medicines and clever concoctions of his own before he is allowed to learn more tricks of the trade. An Alchemist has learned the basics of medicine, and can heal a unit +4 and prevent a poisoned unit from weakening. (Heals +4)

Level 2 - The first "Potion Smiths" were mockingly named by rival Runesmiths who believed that devoting one's time to the study of mixing potions and leaves was worthless. As time passed the name stuck, and became a title of honor for an Alchemist whose skills had earned him renown on the battlefield. Defeating the effects of poison is the accomplishment of any Alchemist who becomes a Potion Smith, and their skills make them in high demand, especially when fighting Orcs. (Heals +4, cures)

Level 3 - The dream of every Alchemist is to become a Medicine Master. These dwarves represent the pinnacle of medical knowledge, and sometimes retire from the battlefield to teach young Alchemists. Still in high demand on the battlefield, Medicine Masters are revered by even the strongest Dwarvish Lords, and protecting a Medicine Master in battle is considered an honor for only the bravest of dwarvish warriors. (Heals +8, cures)

----

Do you like that?

[spir]

1: Dwarvish Medical Student = Zwergenmedizinstudent = Etudiant en médecine nain
2: Dwarvish Internist = Zwergeninternist = Interne nain
3: Dwarvish Head Doctor = Zwergenchefarzt = Médecin chef nain.

*sigh*
Yes I agree that these names are too human-like, too "modern".
But if I use "rune" in the names I have to explain
-why the word is in the name, what runelore has (had) to do with healing
-why the word is still there and the healers can still heal, although runelore is currently lost

Right. Thought that, too. The reason why wrote "...doesn't mean you should use 'rune*'". Unfortunately, I don't know dwarvish culture enough to find other candidates... but someone else will probably help on this, no?
Here is my track of thoughts: dwarves are deeply related to caves, mineral, rock, ore, etc. Their medecine should be based on this, on mineral elements (think at oligo-elements); as opposed to elvish lore, for instance. The equivalent of our "chemist" in dwarvish culture may be a "mineralist", but the notion needs a proper dwarf name. Maybe "ore<something>".
The notion of "ore", in a dwarf's mouth and in a figurative sense , can also include any kind of underground resource, don't you think? Including special (healing) water sources, vegetals such as mushroom, even substance taken out of animal life. Well, I like "ore" as a candidate for naming dwarf medical art.

In the meanwhile, rather keep shaman/healer than words of ours.
my 3 cents

Fog of war isn't suitable for a cave scenario, or does your abbreviation mean something else ? (Fog in caves ? They have constant climax...)
I thought that it looks weird being able to "see" cave wall that is unreachable/hidden behind rock and thus can't be "seen".
Implementation is easy, it's store_locations for [not]terrain=cavewall and then looping over that array removing shroud at single hexes.

Don't forget "Wesnoth is not realistic", may help you. On a surface scenario, units shouldn't see behind the smallest hill, should they? Ditto underground. You're inventing this problem, or am I wrong? You don't need to hide out of sight parts of the cave.
What "exists" in the world of Wesnoth is what's good for the game. Also, how it is implemented is the best manner for gameplay to be good. So if you really want this, choose the best solution. Neither shroud, nore FoW (yes, was fog of war) perfectly match your idea anyway, if I understand it correctly.

and "here" for "hear" in the story.

where is that ?

Code: Select all

line 234 in 01t...cfg
		[message]
			speaker=Dulatus
			message= _ "Among the rare things that I here from the surface, there's a rumour that the old king of Wesnoth is dead. He was betrayed by his own wife and son. The son fell during the following battles, but the wife took the crown and started building up a terror reign."
		[/message]

and "save" is at line 433
		[message]
			speaker=Relgorn
			message= _ "OK, that's finally old enough for your first own command. Listen carefully now. Take a few of your friends and leave the caves at the west gate, the tunnels there should be save."
		[/message]

(sorry, my previous post was misleading, as I earlier spoke of the first fighting scenario)
By the way, I notice in /scenarios a # 16?
Also, a question if you don't mind: Is the logic (and implementation) of most of your scenario configs as complex as the one for "Up the Montain", or is this one special?

[spir]

What about some of the other ideas I gave for the dwarf healer? Here is a modified version of one of my previous submissions, with draft unit descriptions:

Alchemist, Potion Smith, Medicine Master:
...

Waow, this looks like a big step toward solving one of Anonyssimus's naming issues! I also find the descriptions sound good.
"Alchemist", "potion", "smith" are really anchored in dwarf lore in a way or the other, and "potion" even fits the story (actually the only time when healing concretely appears in the campaign).

Some comments that may reflect only my personal feeling. I find that:
* "Alchemist" sounds much more prestigious than the other words, so that I would rather use it for the highest level than the lowest. (Maybe it's because english is not my native language.)
* "Medecine" is weak in evocation power compared to the other words.
* The series of words does not seem to form a whole progression.

An alternative using mainly the words:
Potion Smith, Potion Master, Potion Alchemist.

[Anonymissimus]

@StandYourGround
Yes! These colourful descriptions are probably way better than anything I could write (I'm a coder, you know), except for the parts where you actually name the unit's abilities (heals +4 etc.). That is covered by the SPECIAL_NOTES etc macros, wmllint wants me to use them.
Best proposal so far; you may want to revise it after reading spir's suggestions. I will take that then, unless there's again someone who complains.

By the way, I notice in /scenarios a # 16?

That needs work until it's free for the player.

Also, a question if you don't mind: Is the logic (and implementation) of most of your scenario configs as complex as the one for "Up the Montain", or is this one special?

This is the most complex one I think. It was written at the point when I was about to really understand usage of macros. Also, I didn't yet use fire_event and nested events at that time (Both really help a lot if you need logical event structures.), resulting in a lot of bool variables. I could write it in a better manner now, probably, but I don't dare to touch it. Other scenarios may have more "content", but I managed to code them easier then.
After that scenario, I came to the conclusion that I need to design scenarios in such a way that there are not that many possible orders of occurences of several events, while the way a specific event is executed also depends on what and in which way events have already been executed previously.
E.g. scenario 7 is similar, but I make heavy usage of nested events. It has up to 4 steps of events nested into each other I think.

[StandYourGround]

I only included those in parentheses to help make certain that my descriptions match the units and their abilities as they are in your scenario. Feel free to remove them.

Revisions coming soon...

----

Okay, first some comments. I'm aware that my original idea didn't seem to have a very smooth progression from unit to unit (Alchemist, Potion Smith, Medicine Master), but I don't think it really needs to (ex. Shaman, Druid, Shyde...). That aside, I prefer Alchemist to be the L1 unit, since it ties well with the concept of a Dwarvish tradition of using the title "Alchemist" for initiates into medical research. It sounds more fantastical than "Medical Student" or "Pharmacist", and does well to indicate the idea of someone in a fantasy setting who is an apprentice in the field of pharmacy, and it's less of a mouthful than "Apprentice Alchemist". As for the suggestion of "Potion Smith, Potion Master, Potion Alchemist", while it is pretty good, I prefer to avoid unit progressions that end up sounding like "Big Fish, Bigger Fish, Biggest Fish".

I want to keep the idea of "Potion Smith" starting out as an insult directed at Alchemists from rival Runesmiths, and evolving over time to become a badge of honor to accomplished Alchemists. Since it is a badge of honor, it is not appropriate to use for a Level 1 unit who is merely an initiate. I will change the L3 unit to "Master of Alchemy" or "Master Alchemist". I like the first suggestion "Master of Alchemy" better, because it sounds grander and the way it rings together with Master of Arms from the Loyalists, as that particular Loyalist line is described as being the basic philosophical rebel of Loyalist warrior culture (agility over armor), as the Alchemists are (or at least started out as) the philosophical rebels of Dwarvish culture, where having strong units may be more important than healing the weaker or weakened ones who tend to get in the way, slowing down the battle and/or consuming valuable resources.

My proposed revised unit title line is thus "Alchemist, Potion Smith, Master of Alchemy". In that progression, "Potion Smith" sticks out, but that is intended. It is also implied that the Potion Smiths may have a more grandiose or "official" title (like "Advanced Alchemist"), but Potion Smith is what everyone calls them due to tradition anyways, again as a badge of honor for accomplished Alchemists.

Revised descriptions below (I removed the term "medicine", as more fantastical or archaic terms sound better. Aside from that, not too much was changed, as the original descriptions still fit my ideas):

-----

Alchemist:

The practice of Alchemy among Dwarves began as an attempt to produce gold and other valuable resources from worthless rock. A dismal failure, the practice was shunned and mocked by many. Despite that, many dwarves continued in the study and discovered ways to use their potions for healing. As a matter of tradition, any dwarf who enters the profession begins as an Alchemist and is expected to be able to make potions and clever concoctions of his own before he is allowed to learn more tricks of the trade. An Alchemist has learned the basics of the practice, and can heal wounded units around himself, while preventing poisoned units from weakening.

Potion Smith:

The first "Potion Smiths" were mockingly named by rival Runesmiths who believed that devoting one's time to the study of mixing potions and leaves was a worthless endeavor. As time passed the name remained, and is now given as a title of honor to Alchemists who have advanced their skills sufficiently to earn them renown on the battlefield. Defeating the effects of poison is the accomplishment of any Alchemist who becomes a Potion Smith, and their skills make them in high demand, especially when fighting Orcs.

Master of Alchemy:

After having at least five decades of experience, an Alchemist may finally be able to earn the title "Master of Alchemy", awarded yearly to elder Alchemists who have proven their worth on the battlefield. The rare few who attain this level of experience often retire to train initiate Alchemists, while some remain on the battlefield for even several more decades. Masters of Alchemy are revered by even the strongest Dwarvish Lords, and protecting a Master in battle is considered an honor for only the bravest of dwarvish warriors.

[StandYourGround]

Sorry for the double post, but this made more sense to say in a separate post from my last...

Reading earlier in the thread, I see mention of looking for someone with ability to write storytelling prose. One of my many hobbies that I enjoy is writing (you might have guessed already, but anyway). Poetry, prose, stories, anything. I even like to take challenges for poems or stories on tight deadlines. If you want me to go ahead and just rewrite all the dialog and story in your campaign, fine. However, if you'd like to test me first or see some of my other writings, PM me with details. I am also sometimes reachable on AIM under the screen-name "Geek".

Maybe I could make this a favor trade... Perhaps if I come up with a great story for a campaign, you could code it...

[Anonymissimus]

I prefer to avoid unit progressions that end up sounding like "Big Fish, Bigger Fish, Biggest Fish".

like young wose, wose, elder wose, ancient wose ?!
In German language, I could'nt even think of enough different words for that units.

Reading earlier in the thread, I see mention of looking for someone with ability to write storytelling prose. One of my many hobbies that I enjoy is writing (you might have guessed already, but anyway). Poetry, prose, stories, anything. I even like to take challenges for poems or stories on tight deadlines. If you want me to go ahead and just rewrite all the dialog and story in your campaign, fine. However, if you'd like to test me first or see some of my other writings, PM me with details.

Maybe a bad idea as long as we (I) don't know the whole story of the campaign...
If you have suggestions like the ones for the healer line, that's fine I think.

[StandYourGround]

Okay, what I really meant and poorly expressed late at night was not really rewriting per se, but "translating" your story and dialog to something more storytelling.

For example...

Code: Select all

Long ago, members of the historic Knalga race were living together with the humans at the surface. Trade, peace and growing wealth dominated the lives of the two races in their city called Dwarven Doors.

Such prosperity is a source of envy...One day, blinded by their apparent secureness, the inhabitants of Dwarven Doors were overrun by their orcish enemies. The humans were put to slavery for a long time...but this is part of another story.

The Knalgan inhabitants instead were forced to retreat. After a long hard fight, they fled into their old chambers, into the legendary dwarvish mines, where few surface beings ever dare to go.
It was in 515YW that one day, Relgorn, lord of Knalga, and his friends were discussing the situation...

Not bad at all. Perhaps a little rushed in the opening, but I wouldn't change too much. But this:

Code: Select all

The small group stepped blinkingly into the sunlight...

Might sound and read better as:

Code: Select all

The small group hurried out of the caves, into blinding sunlight...

Just stuff like that. I might also try to introduce a stronger Scottish accent to some of your dwarvish characters, in keeping with general Wesnoth dwarf lore. Basically, all I would do is correct small grammar problems here and there, and try to add a little color to the storyline sections, and maybe a little extra Wesnothian lore here and there.

That aside, any more comments or criticisms about my proposal for the Dwarf healer line? Spir?

[Anonymissimus]

Not bad at all. Perhaps a little rushed in the opening, but I wouldn't change too much.

OK...keep in mind that
-The first scenario is story-only, thus there's no need for a lot of story text.
-I generally prefer cutscene scenarios over story text, because such long texts may be hard to read for a non-native speaker if there's no translation available. I find for example UtBS without translation particularly hard since it has so long story texts. Watching a map with some units, messages and some action is more fun and easier to understand. But it is more effort for the scenario designer - usually. For me, writing the story or dialog is rather the most difficult part I think.

Just stuff like that. I might also try to introduce a stronger Scottish accent to some of your dwarvish characters, in keeping with general Wesnoth dwarf lore.

Is that scottish accent ?

[message]
speaker="Hamel"
message=_"Aiglondur, what ye ha' found is disturbing, for all it seems a small thing. I make known to ye Angarthing, loremaster in training, who recognized the mark on it."
[/message]

Note that this also makes the text a lot more difficult to understand for non-native speakers (non-scots ?)
Btw what do Scots think about being compared with dwarves... ?

Basically, all I would do is correct small grammar problems here and there, and try to add a little color to the storyline sections, and maybe a little extra Wesnothian lore here and there.

Ok, well, then go on...
Do you want to be added to the credits ?

[StandYourGround]

Well, if my dwarf healer names and descriptions are added, that should be worth a spot in credits, but I'll do grammar fixing for free.