The tutorial -- too hard?

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ancestral
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by ancestral »

I agree with Dave.

Make it easier.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by xbriannova »

Hmm... I had no no trouble with the tutorial when I first started somewhere in 1.4+, but then again I must have belonged to that 38% who were victorious. Upon reading this thread I tried the 1.7.2 tutorial and I found it easy. But then again its because I had years of experience.

I agree. We should make it easier- I'm supporting this because I know that the world consists of people with different strengths and weaknesses. We should help everyone. I could only vaguely remember my early experiences, but I can recall how badly I was knocked around in multiplayer when I first started out and now here I am assassinating enemy kings by ambushing them as Elves.

Those who lost the tutorial could have easily been an equivalent of a younger me or a younger you. An extra nudge should push them in the right direction and before we know it, they'd come to gain years of fun, and they'd gain years of experience. Before we know it, they'd come to the forums and develop campaigns, give advice and push the boundaries of this game beyond what they are now.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Velensk »

I think that anyone who fails to read the messages in the tutorial should lose. It would be educational.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Exasperation »

I think that for scenario 1, the quintains' attack should be toned down a little. After reading this thread I went and tried the tutorial, and got killed by a quintain that got lucky. The following happened:

I attacked a quintain with Konrad and an elven fighter. It hit Konrad once with its retaliation, bringing him down from 32 (full) to 29. On its turn, it attacked the elven fighter. I attacked again, and it hit Konrad all five times (15 damage), then hit Konrad five more times on its turn (another 15 damage). Dead Konrad.

Now, in this case it was just really bad luck (about a 1/35 chance of 10 hits in a row) that got me, but figuring out the odds made me realize that a new player would probably be likely to overestimate Konrad's ability to survive - attacking a quintain with Konrad when he's at any less than full health provides a significant risk of death. If Konrad had taken 3 hits instead of 1 in that first exchange, leaving him at 23 hp (which is actually more likely, and would still seem like plenty of health if you didn't work out the probabilities), his odds of dying in the second exchange would go up to around 1 in 7.
Those quintains are a nasty opponent - in comparison with Konrad, they have almost twice the hp, do almost as much raw damage, and have magical attacks. I think bringing them down from 3-5 to either 2-5 or 3-4 would make them more appropriate as training equipment, by giving new players more of a chance to realize they're in danger and retreat when they get injured.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by xbriannova »

Now that you mentioned it, I kinda agree with you. Playing as Li'sar is particularly dangerous too as it took out half of her HP on just one turn alone. If things happened any differently it would have killed her.

Also, I feel like making the quintain a recruitable soldier :P There has to be space for them :lol2:
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by CMaster »

I just took a look at the new (at least to me) tutorial, here are my thoughts:

Those practice dummies are not too hard. If you manage to get yourself killed, you learn a mildly painfull lesson, yet it should be quite clear, how to avoid it. So the next time you try, you will not fail.

The way the basic concepts of the game are introduced is great, especially with the references to the current stats of the units involved.

Why can't Konrad (or Li'sar) level up?

And why don't the fighters in the first scenario have traits? It seems a bit silly to recall a unit in the second scenario that has no traits.

The map on the orc scenario is really easy. The huge amounts of forrest make it very easy to kill the orcs.

But the tactics suggested seem suboptimal. I followed them by and large, but they differ widely from what I would have done with my long experience of playing campaigns. So here are my thoughts, how the suggested tactics can be improved.

1. Recruitment: Elvish Archers in a forrest survive just as well as Elvish Fighters taking less damage through their higher dodge. True, they can't deal as much damage in return, however they can do enough damage with their bow to make up for it. This is why I would object to the suggestion of recruiting two fighters.

Also, one Elvish Shaman is good, two shamans are better. They are able to heal each other and are almost equally difficult to pick from a forrest hex as the archer. A hint about this special ability when used as a pair would seem in order.

A second reason for having two shamans is, that they can make the orcs less dangerous at night.

And a third reason is that the shamans can become immensely powerful once they level up. Of course this is irrelevant for the tutorial itself, but mentioning it in the tutorial can help new players with their first campaigns. It could also be hinted that all fully leveled shamans are able to fly. This should make shure that players will really try to level shamans.

So a better recruitment would be: 1 fighter, 2 archer, 2 shamans or 3 archer and 2 shamans.

2. The isle: The isle is tactically worthless. Even with that village on it. It would be better to line up on the river shore, give the orcs the isle (including the village) and let the orcs come to you. That way, there would be no need to fight on suboptimal terrain (probably with losses) to get the isle and the shore is at least as good a place to fight as the isle.

Suggesting the northern bank of the river as a fighting place would have the additional benefit of teaching the new player how to choose the battle ground. Rushing south to take the isle is all quite well, but the player feels like the oncomming orcs stop him from advancing further. If he stops at the shore to wait for the orcs to come to him, he has to stop himself, choosing his battle ground and learning that it is not always adviseable to push as far as he can.

All in all, it's a great tutorial, it just needs to improve the suggested tactics.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Yogibear »

Regarding the river as battleground instead of the isle i agree with you.

About the other points: They are all valid but i feel they are a little too advanced for the tutorial. After all, it is just meant to teach you very basic stuff.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by CMaster »

Yogibear wrote:About the other points: They are all valid but i feel they are a little too advanced for the tutorial. After all, it is just meant to teach you very basic stuff.
Yeah, you're probably right. Trouble is, I don't know how much of these points can be fitted in without causing an information overload. That would only become clear, once someone tries to implement them. So please regard those points merely as suggestions ;)
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by xbriannova »

In relation to the 'basic stuff' you guys have been talking about, I've been wondering... Would it be possible to split the tutorial into a basic tutorial and advance tutorial?

We could retain the first tutorial scenario as the basic... As for advance tutorial, I think we could scrap the current one and create a series of scenarios to teach pretty much everything else from advanced tactics to introduction of each of the races. Things like that. Maybe that could fix the problems people have been pointing out regarding the tutorial.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by ancestral »

xbriannova wrote:In relation to the 'basic stuff' you guys have been talking about, I've been wondering... Would it be possible to split the tutorial into a basic tutorial and advance tutorial?
I always thought HttT was kind of the learning campaign, that it would teach the player some gameplay strategy and tactics.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Yogibear »

That job is rather for Two brothers and The Southguard. I remember that on the easiest level in the southguard you get tips and explanations what to do and why.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Aethaeryn »

Yogibear wrote:That job is rather for Two brothers and The Southguard. I remember that on the easiest level in the southguard you get tips and explanations what to do and why.
An Orcish Incursion, too.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by xbriannova »

Really? In that case I guess advanced tutorials would be very useless indeed then. Still, it would be a cool addition. May not be as useful as the existing tutorials and features, but cool nontheless.
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Some ideas on the tutorial

Post by netzakh »

I did not find the tutorial particularly hard, though the battle for the island was not completely trivial.
  • In the first scenario, remove the option to quit before destroying all quintains and emphasise the value of gaining experience, especially by the same unit.
  • Add a new scenario between the existing ones.
    • Setting: there is an incursion into Elven lands by some villains led by Thrag (the O-Warrior of now-second Tutorial.) In this new scenario, the vanguard reaches a remote forest and the task is to get rid of those incursers while levelling up units.
    • Map: small, forest except the two encampments and a deep river separating the home encampment from the rest, with one bridge.
    • No villages, initial home gold = 200.
    • Enemy leader: Thug (strong, resilient)
    • Enemy recruit list: Ruffian only
    • One more enemy unit: Thief (quick, intelligent) blocking the bridge
    • Home recruit list: E-Fighter, E-Shaman
    • Additional home leader: E-Scout (loyal, dextrous)
    • In the beginning, the E-Scout appears and informs about the situation. Li'sar/Konrad notes that there are no villages and is informed regarding the E-Shaman's healing ability.
    • L/K now must recall three E-Fighters and recruit two E-Shamans. The lesson about traits takes place here. Attention is also drawn to the E-Scout's loyal and dextrous traits.
    • The first task is to get rid of the Thief, who is blocking the bridge. The ZOC lesson follows.
    • Second turn: the E-Scout notes that the enemy-recruited Ruffians have no ZOC, and (if applicable) praises L/K for the most experienced E-Fighter. The E-Scout tells L/K that though L1 units should be sufficient to get rid of the Thief, the Thug, and the Ruffians, they might be too vulnerable to withstand O-Grunts to come. Finally, the E-Scout mentions that while L/K cannot advance, he can.
    • Scenario goals: kill the Thief, kill the Thug, have at least one E-Captain, advance the E-Scout to an E-Rider.
    • when the first E-Fighter is to advance, remind L/K that though E-Hero has better attacks, E-Captain must be selected as a unit with Leadership is needed. Other advancements are left to the player's decision.
  • Second (now third) scenario changes:
    • the E-Rider arrives with L/K.
    • Galdrad praises L/K for having an E-Captain at the disposal.
    • now the E-Rider, not an E-Fighter is sent to the Northeastern village and then to the South. The value of high-speed units is highlighted.
    • when the E-Rider arrives at the village by the river, three loyal L1 Mermen unexpectedly appear. Galdrad tells that Merfolk are friends but he was not aware that they were here. The player should now know that unexpected things may happen, so the Merfolk in the first scenario of tSG would not come as an utter surprise.
    • the Mermen should now make the island fight much easier by attacking the Orcs and Wolves from water.
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Aethaeryn »

That's an interesting way to make the tutorial easier.
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