The tutorial -- too hard?

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Dave
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The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Dave » August 5th, 2009, 11:11 pm

I was playing the Tutorial, and it seems to me like it's too hard. The battle against the quintains isn't too bad, though I think could be a little easier -- since if you're not careful to take them on one at a time they can beat you. But then the second part of the tutorial is actually pretty challenging! The orcs have close to as many units as you. I think it'd also be good to put protection to stop you from moving Konrad out of the castle, since that's dangerous from him (i.e. tell the player not to do that and cancel the move if they do).

Losing on a tutorial is particularly demoralizing for a new player. I think the tutorial should be designed so players virtually never lose. Since 1.6 came out, we've inflicted defeat on almost (!!) forty thousand players who have played the tutorial! 21% of players are defeated on the second scenario in the tutorial -- and only 38% are actually victorious; the rest quit. This probably means that at least 30-40% of people playing the second scenario of the tutorial can't beat it. (Of course there will always be plenty of quits from people who don't have time to play, decide the game sucks compared to Counterstrike, want to get past the tutorial and onto the 'real' game, and have their boss show up behind them wondering what they're working on, etc...)

I think we should dramatically reduce the difficulty. Remember the tutorial may be played by people who are not only new to Wesnoth, but might not have played a strategy game before.

Thoughts?

David
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Huston
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Huston » August 5th, 2009, 11:58 pm

why not add a couple difficulty levels to it?like make the hardest level the current difficulty, gear the second hardest level to people you have played strategy games before, and gear the easiest level to people who have never played any strategy games before?

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JW
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by JW » August 6th, 2009, 12:12 am

Huston wrote:why not add a couple difficulty levels to it?like make the hardest level the current difficulty, gear the second hardest level to people you have played strategy games before, and gear the easiest level to people who have never played any strategy games before?
That's rather silly.....it's a tutorial.

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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Velensk » August 6th, 2009, 1:46 am

Wow... I'm really really suprised anyone would have trouble on the tutorial. 21% of players lost playing through the tutorial? I remember that when I played wesnoth for the first time with the old tutorial I lost the first time I tried it, but I went back the second time and had little difficulty. Then when I looked at the new tutorial (as an unfortunate side effect of playing the "Between the Worlds" campaign I thought it was incredibly easy compared to the old one because it told you that all you needed to do was stick tight in the center island.
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cretin
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by cretin » August 6th, 2009, 3:12 am

i agree i think the tutorial should be lightened up a lot. after all its meant to teach you the basic mechanics of how the game should be played, not to test your skill. plus it kinda is a downer when you lose in a tutorial, and would in some instances turn players away from the game.

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Aethaeryn
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Aethaeryn » August 6th, 2009, 4:04 am

Huston wrote:why not add a couple difficulty levels to it?like make the hardest level the current difficulty, gear the second hardest level to people you have played strategy games before, and gear the easiest level to people who have never played any strategy games before?
How about instead of making the tutorial have more difficulty levels you make it have more scenarios? You could add a scenario between the current first and the current second that is harder than the first but easier than the last, which prepares them for a grand and somewhat-challenging fight?

Personally, I don't think the tutorial is too hard, but loss could mean they might not grasp the basics fully.
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A Guy
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by A Guy » August 6th, 2009, 4:30 am

When I joined Wesnoth, the orcs on the second level of the tutorial wiped the floor with me, burned me, and threw my ashes to the wind. I just decided to try out Heir to the Throne after that - which was surprisingly easy in comparison to the tutorial (well, considering the tutorial status of the level, anyways).

The tutorial was a wake-up call, to say the least.
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Kenpachi
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by Kenpachi » August 6th, 2009, 9:38 am

Some of those losses were my younger siblings, aged between 5 - 12.
So if you consider that age range trying to play, it might be more understandable?

palloco
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by palloco » August 6th, 2009, 11:35 am

This could be an advertisement point:
BfW: The only game where 60% of the players lose the tutorial. Are you up for the challenge?

lotsofphil
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by lotsofphil » August 6th, 2009, 2:22 pm

Dave wrote: I think the tutorial should be designed so players virtually never lose.
Maybe make it so when Konrad's HP go to zero something pops up and says "Konrad is gravely injured. Would you like to restart the scenario and try again or revive him and continue playing?"
If they revive him, his HP goes back to full. This way he can never die and the player can never lose.

Or, similarly, give him 100% dodge when HP get low.

cretin
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by cretin » August 6th, 2009, 3:21 pm

mmm that might confuse players when they move onto the real campaigns if they are not told about it. If that was to happen you probably would need a disclaimer like "for the purpose of the Tutorial, your leader cannot die" if you were to do it this way.

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chaoticwanderer
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by chaoticwanderer » August 6th, 2009, 4:59 pm

The tutorial can be a bit hard. I beat it on my first try, but that second scenario nearly did me in. I agree that it should be a bit toned down. Particularly, the map of the second scenario should be changed to give more defensible terrain to the player, because inexperienced players will prolly take a lot of casualties on the island between the bridge. I'd move the 'island' back a bit so the player can reach it sooner and hole up there a bit sooner, and maybe put some more forest or something.
Last edited by chaoticwanderer on August 6th, 2009, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lotsofphil
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by lotsofphil » August 6th, 2009, 5:56 pm

cretin wrote:mmm that might confuse players when they move onto the real campaigns if they are not told about it. If that was to happen you probably would need a disclaimer like "for the purpose of the Tutorial, your leader cannot die" if you were to do it this way.
Good point. Maybe something like "Konrad has died. Ordinarily your game would be over now. For the purpose of this tutorial you can revive him now or restart the scenario. Keep playing to find learn the mechanics of the game; restart to improve your skills."

AI
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by AI » August 15th, 2009, 6:17 pm

I lost the first time I played it (version 1.2.8): I ran out of turns while gathering enough units to finish off that scary level 2 leader during the right time of day.

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SkyOne
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Re: The tutorial -- too hard?

Post by SkyOne » August 16th, 2009, 6:28 am

I just have tried to play.
As my opinion, it is very fair. It's easier than any other scenarios in the mainline campaign, but I understand that 21% of players lost on the second scenario if they have never played Wesnoth, especially very young aged players. They probably do not read the directions to play. I guess that players who lost at the second scenario use Konrad to attack the enemies. As long as following the direction, the tutorial is not too hard.

By the way, this is the saving file of scenario 2 in 1.6.4. to make it easier to test the tutorial for experienced players (just in case).
Attachments
Wesnoth_Tutorial_Part_II.gz
(1.91 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
Northern Forces - now on 1.12 server

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