Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

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Theron
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Theron » April 28th, 2009, 11:50 am

The problem is that a Crown Noble (Aramelle Eluviss, level 2) has
advances_to=Count - House Eluviss
in his .cfg.

This has to be:
advances_to=Count House Eluviss

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » April 28th, 2009, 4:24 pm

Theron wrote:The problem is that a Crown Noble (Aramelle Eluviss, level 2) has
advances_to=Count - House Eluviss
in his .cfg.

This has to be:
advances_to=Count House Eluviss
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I had misunderstood the problem then, I apologize. I already fixed that particular bug but I haven't uploaded the fixed version yet. I will do so later today when I have access to my files.

EDIT: Tiny update has been uploaded. Aramelle should be able to level without causing the game to crash now. Let me know if anything else comes up, I appreciate your help.

Theron
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Theron » April 29th, 2009, 7:45 pm

AK-P 0.1.6

Scenario 10:
- If you move Freiseia on turn 1 towards Miralone the objective changes from "await Freiseia's return" to "defeat Miralone's captain + reach cathedral". On turn 2 Freiseia is moved back for reporting and the objective is now "reach cathedral".
(Similar happens if you move Freiseia towards Yuliase).
Suggestion: Do not have Freiseia player controlled on turn 1. (?)
- On turn 1 "Incendiary Skirmishers" are recruitable, on the subsequent turns they aren't. Recalls are still possible. If this is intended there should be an explanation.

Should AK-P splitted into parts (crown, rebels)? Because otherwise the statistics (recruits/recalls/advancements/losses/kills) are mixed.

Fast leveling of units:
- Crown part: Slow down the leveling a bit but not too much.
- Rebel part: If there will be much more scenarios after "Cathedral" the leveling is too fast.

Male/female confusion: I think you have most (all?) leaders female. Although sometimes the names aren't obvious female. If you want to have matriarchy in your world IMHO it would be a good idea to tell the player.

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » April 29th, 2009, 10:21 pm

Theron wrote:AK-P 0.1.6

Scenario 10:
- If you move Freiseia on turn 1 towards Miralone the objective changes from "await Freiseia's return" to "defeat Miralone's captain + reach cathedral". On turn 2 Freiseia is moved back for reporting and the objective is now "reach cathedral".
(Similar happens if you move Freiseia towards Yuliase).
Suggestion: Do not have Freiseia player controlled on turn 1. (?)
- On turn 1 "Incendiary Skirmishers" are recruitable, on the subsequent turns they aren't. Recalls are still possible. If this is intended there should be an explanation.
Thanks for bringing those up. Freiseia is not supposed to show up at all until Turn 2. I've fixed that particular bug and it shouldn't happen again.

I'm not certain why you were able to recruit Incendiary Skirmishers. I've never had that come up myself and there's nothing that I can see that would cause that. Just in case, I've changed Perrin's recruit list to a blank string, and I haven't had the problem pop up since.

Theron wrote:Should AK-P splitted into parts (crown, rebels)? Because otherwise the statistics (recruits/recalls/advancements/losses/kills) are mixed.
Is that really necessary? I would prefer for the story to be kept coherent rather than over two campaigns, and I'm not sure if it is significant that the statistics reflect both Crown and rebel units. I'll be willing to consider it after the campaign as a whole has been completed however.
Theron wrote:Fast leveling of units:
- Crown part: Slow down the leveling a bit but not too much.
- Rebel part: If there will be much more scenarios after "Cathedral" the leveling is too fast.
Yeah, I'll be looking into fixing this as I think it will be a problem. My thoughts at the moment are to lower the recruitment rate of the opponents, but increase the levels of the units that they recruit. I don't know if the increased level of the enemy units will in fact make things worse, but I'm going to give it a try and see what happens.
Theron wrote:Male/female confusion: I think you have most (all?) leaders female. Although sometimes the names aren't obvious female. If you want to have matriarchy in your world IMHO it would be a good idea to tell the player.
This isn't a particularly important problem for me at the moment. Some of the characters are female and some aren't. The main reason why it's hard to tell is primarily due to art limitations. If the sprites and characters had clear images, it would be rather easy to tell, but at the moment, they don't so I know it can be a little confusing. But since this problem is primarily cosmetic, it isn't particularly high on my list of things to do. The Weydian society is not particularly matriarchal, I've left it rather ambiguous it doesn't seem necessary for it to lean one way or another.

Theron
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Theron » April 30th, 2009, 4:39 am

AK-P 0.1.6, medium difficulty / Wesnoth 1.6a / Mac OS X 10.5.6
I'm not certain why you were able to recruit Incendiary Skirmishers. I've never had that come up myself and there's nothing that I can see that would cause that.
I'm attaching my Cathedral start file.
Just in case, I've changed Perrin's recruit list to a blank string, and I haven't had the problem pop up since.
Is Perrin supposed not to recruit at all? Most of my units are already max. level.

General recruitment:
At the end of "The Purge of Estelaisen" there is a hint about future recruitments: "We should head for the city-gates to the South-East. We can lose the Crown in the forests near the Solyanae border. Save what people you can, I doubt we'll have a chance to rally more people to our cause after this battle."
I haven't encountered limited recruitments.

Edit:
Scenario 10: Choosing the Miralone path didn't spawn any townspeople. ("It would be easier to travel North, there is a small patrol stationed in the hills, but they are isolated, and the people who live there may support our cause.")
Attachments
_AK-P-Cathedral.gz
(12.78 KiB) Downloaded 161 times

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » April 30th, 2009, 6:06 pm

It looks like the problem stemmed from the ending of scenario 6. I had initially assumed that the recruitment problem was isolated to Cathedral so I didn't think to check the scenarios before it.

Perrin isn't supposed to be able to recruit at all after the Purge scenario. I think when I deleted all of Perrin's recruitment lists in the subsequent scenarios, the game ended up letting you recruit based off of the last recruitment list, so I'll have to fix that.

Going to Miralone or Yuliase doesn't spawn any new recruits, it changes Perrin's recruitment list. If you capture Miralone, Perrin can being recruiting rebel units again for that scenario, capturing Yuliase allows him to recruit Crown units for just that scenario. Last time I checked, this still worked, but I'll take another look at it to make sure that no bugs pop up.

I appreciate your feedback, it's been very helpful for polishing the scenarios that have been completed so far. I'll try to fix an update by the end of the week.

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Mist
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Mist » May 2nd, 2009, 2:13 am

Devrailis Colandore wrote: Yeah, I'll be looking into fixing this as I think it will be a problem. My thoughts at the moment are to lower the recruitment rate of the opponents, but increase the levels of the units that they recruit. I don't know if the increased level of the enemy units will in fact make things worse, but I'm going to give it a try and see what happens.
I'm inclined to think that this approach carries a risk of making the scenarios unplayable. The problem, as I see it is actualy an indirect result of Distand Ends map design. The enemies there are't "to easy to deal with". Crown units are generally stronger than rebels, and this difference carries across all unit branches and levels of the tree. This causes relatively high attrition rates in players army, units are simply hard to keep alive for long until leveled, and even then game requires caution. That is as long as the AI sides have gold to recruit, once it's gone, and you wear down whatever they managed to throw at you situation stabilises and 'mop up' phase of the play begins. And that's the root of the issue, this 'mop up' is quite long and unchallenging. You got time and space to isolate, slow and trap enemies. You got luxury of choosing who makes the kill. And finaly you've got 4 lvl2 and over a dozen of lvl1 kills before the game ends, that's roughly 150xp with no loses, enough to further level a handful of units that are already leveled in earlier dogfight.
If you make AI recruit lvl2s, it'll push the initial phas difficulty from 'challenging' to '[censored] impossible' (marksman on lvl2 archers will render any sort of defence attempts suicidal) and will morph 'mop up' phase form 'xp fest' to 'all out xp party' since instead of single lvl1 units roaming the map to be killed, you'll have single lvl2 units roaming the map to be killed.
Solution? I think it'd be best to end this scenario once player army outnumbers the AI by a given value (like 2:1 or 3:2).
Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep.
Disorder.

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » May 2nd, 2009, 4:40 am

If this is the case, then it seems to me that it would be best if I decreased the map size and reduced the number of enemy sides. I'm a little reluctant to redo the entire map, but the "exp-fest" is certainly going to be a problem down the road, so I might as well make the attempt anyway.

I had intended for this scenario to be the "simple" map of the campaign. No shifting objectives or mid-scenario character dialogue, just kill all the leaders and move on. If it starts causing balancing problems, then I'll adjust the scenario design to give the player less opportunities to farm exp. I don't mind dumbing the scenario down a little since it was already meant to be straightforward.

I really appreciate the breakdown that you've given me. I had played through the scenario myself a few times, but since that was when the scenario was the last completed one, I hadn't fully realized the implication of having so many leveled units.

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Mist
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Mist » May 2nd, 2009, 4:52 am

Hmm, redoing the map and complete scenario should be a last ditch solution. If you don't count the problems it causes later to balance, it does play good. Try to find out some less drastic solution, like maybe sending away most of the lvl3 units as a "support" for rebelion in other parts of the country (and thus removing them from the recall list). It might be also worth generally raising xp requirements for rebels to advance from levels 2 to 3, which would slow the leveling as well. Other things worth considering would be decreasing the number of villages on the map and cutting avaible turns (which is the default balancing solution in most campaigns, you can't play carefull and be focused on leveling if you're racing the clock) as generaly less time=more losses.
Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep.
Disorder.

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » May 3rd, 2009, 2:13 am

After re-reading some of the posts in the thread, it's hit me that a lot complaints about balancing in the scenario might also working under the assumption that you can recruit units in the scenario. This shouldn't be happening, since recruiting is technically disallowed for the scenario up until the recruitment triggers in Cathedral.

Last time I tested the scenario, I had plenty of units available for recall, but then again, I knew what was coming up since I was writing it. My worry is that players who aren't prepared will find this scenario impossible to beat outright, especially if it already proves difficult for people who CAN recruit.

I've toned down some of the gold for the enemies in the scenario and removed a few villages that I felt were superfluous. The turn limit has been reduced to 45, which I hope is not too drastic. I have managed to finish the scenario in roughly 40 turns myself. I'll work on changing the experience levels of the level two rebel units and have that updated on a later release. My main concern at this point is that people will find the scenario too difficult and be unable to complete it.

The recruitment bug that was allowing Perrin to continue recruiting even after the Purge scenario has been fixed, and he will now be unable to recruit any units after that scenario until the appropriate point in Cathedral.

------

I've also released a new update. There are two additional scenarios attached to the campaign now. One is a pure dialogue scenario, which isn't too long I hope, since I know not everyone likes to sit through them (though, I would appreciate more comments on the storyline!). The second scenario plays with a bit of a gimmick, which should become rather obvious once you play the scenario through. Do let me know if it proves to be a problem.

Thanks to everyone for their help!

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Kelben
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Kelben » May 5th, 2009, 1:49 am

I get something weird with the last scenario played with the crown.
After reloading my game this morning, I lost all the pictures of the units I can recall... Wesnoth 1.6.1 with windows xp.
Next scenario with the Rebels, now, it seems no problem is appearing. Let's see tomorrow when I'll load again.
-WAR- Wesnoth Allied Rebels

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Mist
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Mist » May 5th, 2009, 1:58 am

See any number of topics in Technical Support complaining about missing sprites. It's not the campaigns fault but a bug in Wesnoth that'll be fixed with 1.6.2 release.
Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep.
Disorder.

Theron
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Theron » May 5th, 2009, 1:49 pm

AK-P 0.1.7, medium difficulty / Wesnoth 1.6.1 / Mac OS X 10.5.6

I just played through the new version. Here are some comments:

Scenario 3 (Amidst the Laansratch):
All units are already level 3 just before meeting the other patrol squad.
I lost 3 units of Davilyn's patrol squad (including the Army Healer) due to bad unit placement of the AI.

Scenario 4 (Passing of Torches):
As it turned out there was no need for a second healer.

Scenario 6 (The Purge of Estelaisen):
I tried to put up a heroic fight.
I sent some units north early (kind of cheating) to pin down the cavalry. Elbreis stayed there till the next to last wave. Therefore the retreat objective popped up rather late (turn 25).
Meanwhile I was quite succesful in holding the river ford in the SW and W. When my ally was defeated in the NW the front collapsed. The vast number of Crown Marksman forced me to start my retreat. Only then I got to recruit Incendiary Skirmishers.
Instead of retreating immediately I forged another frontline in the southern half.
This lost me quite a number of nice units and I escaped in the last moment (turn 35).
Statistics:
Killed level 3 - 2 - 1 units: 0 - 36 - 60
Lost level 3 - 2 -1 units: 6 - 11 - 75
Saved units (beside the heros):
4 level 2: 1 Insurgent Fighter, 2 Rebel Flanker, 1 Partisan Lieutenant
2 level 1: 1 Rebel Skirmisher, 1 Partisan Scout
I wondered if I saved enough units. But they were all I really needed for the next scenarios.

Scenario 7 (Smaller Steps):
Not all initial units had all their HP and MP restored.

Scenario 9 (Distant Ends):
Easy. I played quick to have the enemies separated. Finished on turn 24/60.

Scenario 10 (Cathedral):
Freiseia is on the recall list. If I recall her on turn 1 she "returns" from scouting out of the keep.
I choosed the Miralone path because I wanted to be able to recruit some more rebells.
I recruited 4 (one of each kind) just for fun of leveling units.
Again a very easy scenario: 18/50 turns.

Scenario 11 (Building Depts):
Bug: The .cfg references the map from the development version.
I'm confused again: I thought Aramelle Eluviss is a man. But reading the story in this scenario I get the impression Aramelle is female.

Scenario 12 (Silver Magnolia):
Bug: The .cfg references the map from the development version.
The 4 recruits from scenario 10 are in my recall list - nice. But I wonder what would have happened if I had choosen the Yuliase path. I think Crown units on the recall list would be much nicer.
I'm able to recruit again. This is plausibel as the rebels aren't on flight anymore.
Although I had a huge amount of money (1400 gold) I tried a recall only strategy.
This is sufficient to take out green and isolated units of blue. But to close in on the blue leader I'm going to need expendable units.
I don't like Larusei to be immortal (the player deserves a warning!): I killed her and then she restored her HP completely (make her retreat instead) which then led to the loss of Elbreis.
The death of Elbreis didn't trigger my defeat.
The attack options of the Silver Throne Swordsman are weird:
11-3 melee: blade marksman
8-4 melee: blade marksman

Devrailis Colandore
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Devrailis Colandore » May 5th, 2009, 9:44 pm

Theron wrote: Scenario 7 (Smaller Steps):
Not all initial units had all their HP and MP restored.
I never noticed that. I think it's probably due to how I stored the units to carry them over to the next scenario. I'll make sure to restore all HP and MP before I store the units.
Theron wrote: Scenario 10 (Cathedral):
Freiseia is on the recall list. If I recall her on turn 1 she "returns" from scouting out of the keep.
I choosed the Miralone path because I wanted to be able to recruit some more rebells.
I recruited 4 (one of each kind) just for fun of leveling units.
Again a very easy scenario: 18/50 turns.
Here I think this happens because I leave her in the recall list and recall her on turn 2. I should have thought of that. I'll store her like I did at the end of Scenario 6 to prevent it.
Theron wrote: Scenario 11 (Building Depts):
Bug: The .cfg references the map from the development version.
This was a stupid, stupid mistake on my part. I must have missed that when I moved the files over. It'll get fixed for the next release.
Theron wrote: I'm confused again: I thought Aramelle Eluviss is a man. But reading the story in this scenario I get the impression Aramelle is female.
Aramelle is a man, I'm not sure where the confusion comes from but I'll check the dialogue and see if there's anything ambiguous or poorly written.
Theron wrote: Scenario 12 (Silver Magnolia):
Bug: The .cfg references the map from the development version.
Again, that was a stupid mistake on my part, I'll make sure to get it fixed.
Theron wrote: The 4 recruits from scenario 10 are in my recall list - nice. But I wonder what would have happened if I had choosen the Yuliase path. I think Crown units on the recall list would be much nicer.
My intent here is for the Yuliase path to be more difficult but give a greater reward of having some Crown units available. My hope is that the balancing works out well.
Theron wrote: I don't like Larusei to be immortal (the player deserves a warning!): I killed her and then she restored her HP completely (make her retreat instead) which then led to the loss of Elbreis.
I was a bit uncomfortable with that too. However, I wanted to try it out just to see if I could code it in the first place. It was probably a bad idea to begin with, though I would like her to be on the map for the duration of the scenario. I might have her respawn at the edge of the map after a turn or two every time she is defeated instead. This should give the player a chance to prepare if they have to face her multiple times.
Theron wrote: The death of Elbreis didn't trigger my defeat.
I must not have transferred the proper death macro over. I'll have that fixed.
Theron wrote: The attack options of the Silver Throne Swordsman are weird:
11-3 melee: blade marksman
8-4 melee: blade marksman
The Swordsman's attacks are to give him two options, either have a heavier hitting attack with fewer strikes, or more attacks that do less damage but have a higher chance to hit. In retrospect, that makes the marksman ability either redundant or unnecessary, so I'll most likely remove the ability from both attacks.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll go over all of the mistakes in the code and have it fixed in the next release.

Theron
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Re: Campaign: Autumn Kingdoms - Prologue (Now v1.6.x Compatible)

Post by Theron » May 5th, 2009, 11:25 pm

I think your story telling is of high quality.

The parts in scenario 10 which confuses me about the gender of Aramelle are:
[message]
id=High Cleric Tollins
message= _ "Ah, Lord Eluviss. I see what you once used to confide to me in whispers you now proclaim loudly with broad strokes of arms."
[/message]
"Lord" is male.
[message]
id=High Cleric Tollins
message= _ "Yes, yes. This murderous adventure of yours. You wish for my blessings? To call the gentle folk to arms? Rise up against a corrupt King? Or perhaps it is to spurn a young woman who seeks her birthright?"
[/message]
I think the "woman who seeks her birthright" is Aramelle. Or are you telling about the princess?
[message]
id=Aramelle Eluviss
message= _ "You will not support us? Though you know what beasts these men of the Crown are!"
[/message]
This could be a woman to woman talk.
[message]
id=High Cleric Tollins
message= _ "All men are beasts Aramelle, think of what you are asking of me."
[/message]
dito
[message]
id=High Cleric Tollins
message= _ "You must understand, Aramelle. I do this not for you, for you are still more a noble than you care to admit. I do not do this for a sweet little girl long dead, for dead little girls have no future in this world, but in the next. I do this because I believe the gods will see this to be a good path to take, and perhaps the people will suffer a little less in the fighting is over. Yes Aramelle, have you forgotten? I still believe in the gods, though you may not."
[/message]
I think the "little girl" is Aramelle. Or is this the peasant girl from scenario 2?

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