A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working)

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Chief_Chasso
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » September 19th, 2013, 11:57 pm

Adamant14 wrote:@ Chief_Chasso:
Can you please test the new AVB version (version 1.0.1) on BfW 1.11.2 for me?
And tell me if you have any problems?
I wish I could... but I don't have 1.11.2 installed. Just out of curiosity, why do we need to test it on 1.11.2- isn't that version obsolete? Or doesn't it matter? I can test it on 1.11.6? Will that help?
SP Campaign: Rally For Roanic

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Adamant14
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Adamant14 » September 20th, 2013, 2:22 pm

Chief_Chasso wrote:I wish I could... but I don't have 1.11.2 installed. Just out of curiosity, why do we need to test it on 1.11.2- isn't that version obsolete? Or doesn't it matter? I can test it on 1.11.6? Will that help?
Yes, of course. :P
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ElComandante
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by ElComandante » January 3rd, 2014, 6:17 pm

Hi,

I've been playing AVB campaign for a few days and like it so far. I'm currently at scenario #11 "And the River Ran Red" and that scenario made me post a few comments here. First off, I'm playing on v1.11.6 and so far have no problems (just a deprecation warning that "protect_unit" WML will be removed in v1.12). I'm playing on medium level and (aside from a few irritating tries before you get the proper scenario strategy right) I find the campaign difficulty about right (meaning not-too-difficult-yet-challenging-enough). The story is not really that great and could be improved as was already pointed out earlier in the thread. Basically, 10 scenarios into the campaign, I still don't understand why the Elves are strutting all around the country and behaving quite non-Elvishly. Once the story is polished, I believe this campaign to be practically on par with the official campaigns.

One comment about scenario #8 "Disobedience". The way the ambush criteria is defined, the ambushers may show up right on the edge of hills which means that ambushers sometimes get triggered based on the route the unit is taking (forest being of equal cost for Elves). For example, the attached screenshot shows the potential activation of two possible ambushes even though I need the unit to go in a straight line:
small.jpg
small.jpg (13.44 KiB) Viewed 2142 times
To avoid this, I have to split the move and avoid the V-shaped route the game wants to take. This is needlessly irritating and should be fixed by either modifying the terrain or changing the filter to remove those bordering hexes as possible ambush locations.

As for scenario #11: is it actually possible to beat all enemy leaders? Large map, rich enemies - 5 of them!, enemy-friendly terrain, no supercharged recall list, and only 19 turns. I haven't played the scenario yet, but I'm thinking no way. Anyone here did it? In a reasonable, average player kind of way, not a played-wesnoth-since-v0.1-on-nightmare-and-never-lost way :). If not, the bonus objective should be removed (or at least changed to something more manageable).

Thanks.

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Adamant14
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Adamant14 » January 3rd, 2014, 11:15 pm

Thank you for your feedback.
Because the origin author has left the community long time ago, and the current maintainer seems to be gone too, I will try to answer your questions.
ElComandante wrote:I'm currently at scenario #11 "And the River Ran Red" and that scenario made me post a few comments here. First off, I'm playing on v1.11.6 and so far have no problems (just a deprecation warning that "protect_unit" WML will be removed in v1.12).
Thank you for your assessment, this is the most controversial scenario of this campaign because of its difficulty. So your vote means one more vote for okay and playable. Thank you for that. :)
ElComandante wrote:One comment about scenario #8 "Disobedience". The way the ambush criteria is defined, the ambushers may show up right on the edge of hills which means that ambushers sometimes get triggered based on the route the unit is taking (forest being of equal cost for Elves). ... <snip> ...To avoid this, I have to split the move and avoid the V-shaped route the game wants to take. This is needlessly irritating and should be fixed by either modifying the terrain or changing the filter to remove those bordering hexes as possible ambush locations.
I have already noticed this issue, but your note will force me maybe to revise the code.
Thank you.
ElComandante wrote:As for scenario #11: is it actually possible to beat all enemy leaders? Large map, rich enemies - 5 of them!, enemy-friendly terrain, no supercharged recall list, and only 19 turns. I haven't played the scenario yet, but I'm thinking no way. Anyone here did it? In a reasonable, average player kind of way, not a played-wesnoth-since-v0.1-on-nightmare-and-never-lost way :). If not, the bonus objective should be removed (or at least changed to something more manageable).
I am not a very good player, so I leave this question to be answered by a better player.
But if it is impossible to beat all enemies, then you are right.
So I hope someone can answer this question.
ElComandante wrote:Once the story is polished, I believe this campaign to be practically on par with the official campaigns.
Yes, even the origin-author meant that the story is just poor.
Yes, maybe the story is poor, but I love this campaign.
So I really hope that someday one will do the job, will rewrite the story of AVB.
If you, or someone else wants to do it, please let me know.
Thank you.
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Chief_Chasso
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » January 3rd, 2014, 11:50 pm

Hi guys.
Adamant14 wrote:ElComandante wrote:
One comment about scenario #8 "Disobedience". The way the ambush criteria is defined, the ambushers may show up right on the edge of hills which means that ambushers sometimes get triggered based on the route the unit is taking (forest being of equal cost for Elves). ... <snip> ...To avoid this, I have to split the move and avoid the V-shaped route the game wants to take. This is needlessly irritating and should be fixed by either modifying the terrain or changing the filter to remove those bordering hexes as possible ambush locations.
I have already noticed this issue, but your note will force me maybe to revise the code.
Well, I was the only who modified the map for scenario 8. However, IIRC, I didn't really make too many drastic changes to the forest terrain tiles along the hills. But, imho, I don't think we should be too hasty to resort to rewriting the code. I remember play testing the map and I don't recall having too many ambushing units appear (if any) if you're only at the edge of the hills (especially, near the starting keep). I don't feel that this is a problem, but maybe I'm wrong. If anything it makes it more inviting for the player to get closer to the hills, which adds some challenge. Otherwise, I felt this scenario was too easy, because the player just travels in the middle of the path avoiding the hills. I felt this scenario needed some areas where the player was almost forced to get closer to the hills. I still think the map is generous enough for the "avoid the hills" strategy.
Adamant14 wrote:ElComandante wrote:
As for scenario #11: is it actually possible to beat all enemy leaders? Large map, rich enemies - 5 of them!, enemy-friendly terrain, no supercharged recall list, and only 19 turns. I haven't played the scenario yet, but I'm thinking no way. Anyone here did it? In a reasonable, average player kind of way, not a played-wesnoth-since-v0.1-on-nightmare-and-never-lost way . If not, the bonus objective should be removed (or at least changed to something more manageable).
I am not a very good player, so I leave this question to be answered by a better player.
But if it is impossible to beat all enemies, then you are right.
So I hope someone can answer this question.
I agree with you both on this. I've mentioned my doubts regarding the alternate objective's feasibility previously in this thread. But I am also not a very good player, so I too, must leave this challenge to a more seasoned player.
SP Campaign: Rally For Roanic

ElComandante
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by ElComandante » January 5th, 2014, 11:27 pm

Thank you for your assessment, this is the most controversial scenario of this campaign because of its difficulty. So your vote means one more vote for okay and playable. Thank you for that. :)
I finished the entire campaign in the meantime. I found the scenario #11 (And the River Ran Red) okay. It was challenging the way survival scenarios usually are and I managed it with acceptable losses (though I had to run towards the weakest enemy from the rest of them for the last 2-3 turns). I haven't tried the run-to-the-hills strategy (recall leveled trolls then go to mountains where most of the enemy units can't reach you due to being cavalry) as that felt a bit cheat-y. Finally, after having played through it, I indeed consider the bonus objective (kill all enemy leaders) impossible or at least infeasible.

As for the last few scenarios, #12 (Second Crossing) was quite easy for me even with minimum starting gold (due to no bonus in #11). I like that as it gives the players a chance to recover some extra gold. #13 (For Auld Lang Syne) and the finale, #14 (Nature's Fury), are both also quite nice. Two comments regarding the last scenario:
  • First, I don't get the 12 shamans and druids in a useless part of the map (well, I got that they were guarding the Heart of the Forest, but only because I purposefully killed Mal Startin with a non-Wose unit for a 2nd time). If they are indeed guarding something important, it should be more clearly stated in the dialogue and probably somehow marked on the map with a more special tile. This way, it doesn't make much sense.
  • Second, the chest of gold at (4,2) makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :).
But, imho, I don't think we should be too hasty to resort to rewriting the code. I remember play testing the map and I don't recall having too many ambushing units appear (if any) if you're only at the edge of the hills (especially, near the starting keep).
Well, the units are randomly placed so if you didn't playtest it for too many times, it is possible you got a different impression. I'd suggest either modifying the terrain or removing Gs^Fp from the filter to exclude those edge hexes from ambush locations. If the intention is to force players to get closer to the hills, then again the terrain could be modified to be narrower, e.g. just two hexes between the possible ambush hexes in a few places. As it currently is, I believe everyone will just get ambushed, get irritated, restart the scenario and then more carefully position units. That was what I did and I ended the scenario without triggering a single ambush. But it's really not fun that way.

The ambushes are there either to prevent the player from taking shortcuts in which case it shouldn't be possible to trigger them accidentally when following the expected roundabout path, or they should be there to bother you *along* the way in which case the path should be made narrower thus making it impossible to completely avoid potential ambush hexes (although random placement could make it possible to avoid the actual ambush).

Anyway, it's just my opinion :). I posted it in hope that any feedback is better than no feedback and it's up to the author/maintainer to decide what to do.

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Chief_Chasso
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » January 9th, 2014, 12:02 am

@ElComandante
Thank you for posting your feedback. You're definitely right- some feedback is better than nothing.
ElComandante wrote:The ambushes are there either to prevent the player from taking shortcuts in which case it shouldn't be possible to trigger them accidentally when following the expected roundabout path, or they should be there to bother you *along* the way in which case the path should be made narrower thus making it impossible to completely avoid potential ambush hexes (although random placement could make it possible to avoid the actual ambush).
Regarding scenario #8, I'm not sure what the original design intent was or what the original author had intended for this map. If it was up to me, I would make the path narrower in certain parts so that ambushing units "bother" you along the way. That's my vote anyway. :)
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Adamant14
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Adamant14 » January 9th, 2014, 1:15 am

Yes, any feedback is gladly welcome. :)

Because of your post I play through AVB another time.
Last time I did is a while ago. :P
Right now I started scenario '11 "And the River Ran Red" ( difficulty HARD ).


About scenario #8 "Disobedience":
After refreshing my memories about this scenario, I have to say that I think the number of triggered ambushers fits perfectly to the difficulty of this scenario. :)
The enemies are rather week, and if you make the player able to evade the ambushers, then the whole scenario will become boring.
The player must trigger some ambushers, that is the main idea of this scenario. :eng:
Otherwise the whole scenario is spoiled. :(

What I would like to change is the Nagas income, because I think the Nagas are too week.
The end of the scenario is way to easy.
I think the Nagas need a little push. :hmm:




@ Chief_Chasso:
If you like you can change the map another time. :)
I will have a look on it and make some playtests, and if it I like your map I will add it. :)
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » January 9th, 2014, 11:48 pm

Adamant14 wrote:What I would like to change is the Nagas income, because I think the Nagas are too week.
The end of the scenario is way to easy.
I think the Nagas need a little push.
This is a good idea. The Nagas just trickle towards you, one at a time (after the first wave) and they are easy to take out, especially on land. Maybe, when the player reaches the bridge, the Nagas get an influx of gold to generate a nice wave of enemies.
Adamant14 wrote:@ Chief_Chasso:
If you like you can change the map another time.
I can certainly revise the map. I'll work up something over the weekend. I'll keep you posted.
SP Campaign: Rally For Roanic

ElComandante
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by ElComandante » January 10th, 2014, 10:46 pm

Adamant14 wrote: About scenario #8 "Disobedience":
After refreshing my memories about this scenario, I have to say that I think the number of triggered ambushers fits perfectly to the difficulty of this scenario. :)
The enemies are rather week, and if you make the player able to evade the ambushers, then the whole scenario will become boring.
The player must trigger some ambushers, that is the main idea of this scenario. :eng:
Otherwise the whole scenario is spoiled. :(
As long as it's clear that without changing the terrain, it *is* currently possible (though annoying) to evade the ambushers, I completely agree with you :).

I'd still make sure that either the location generator doesn't spawn ambushers in tiles bordering forest/flat or that there are no hills bordering forest, though. Let's see what Chief_Chasso comes up with and we can work from there.

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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » January 25th, 2014, 6:22 pm

Hi Adamant14. I finally got a revised map ready for Scenario 8 Disobedience. These are the changes:
1. Removed the forest terrain tiles along the edge of the hills south of the starting keep.
2. Added more hill terrain at the first bend of the path around coordinate 24,7.
3. Added more hill/pine forest terrain surrounding the Player 2 keep. I was intending to make it harder to attack the player 2 leader from behind. If the player puts units along the pine forest surrounding the player 2 keep, it might prompt an ambush.
4. Added more hill terrain narrowing the path around coordinate 20,14.
5. Opened up the area directly north of the player 3 keep. I pulled the two villages (15,21 and 9,24) away from the hill terrain. I figured this could provide a much needed healing area.
6. Added more hill terrain surrounding the player 3 keep. Again, attempting to make it more difficult to back door the leader (or attack the leader from behind).
7. Added more hill terrain near 24,31 creating another choke-hold along the path.
8. Added a few more hill terrain surrounding the player 4 keep.
9. Pulled villages 26,33 and 21,40 way from the hill edges, providing another safe healing point.
10. Changed all the dry dirt road terrain (Rd) to regular dirt road (Re) along the path. This is just for aesthetic reasons. The dry dirt path didn't seem to fit with the surrounding environment. Also I changed some of the grass tiles from dry grass to the regular grass, attempting to create a more lush environment, which I think is more fitting.

Please note two things:
1. If you make any changes to the pine forest tiles using the map editor, just note the editor defaults to the Gll^Fp terrain. Open up the map data and replace any Gll^Fp to Gs^Fp. But I'm sure you knew that. ;)
2. I have not tested this map yet.

Let me know what you think. Once I play it, I'll let you know if I think any changes are needed. But the ultimate decision is up to you of course.
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Adamant14
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Adamant14 » January 26th, 2014, 7:37 pm

I have uploaded the map to the server, so anyone can test it.

Other changes I've made (only minor changes):

Code: Select all


Added to all team_names 'enemy' or 'allied' to make the status table clearer

Fixed the depreciated [protect_unit] tag


	id="06_Emerging_from_the_Depths"
Raised the start-gold of side=2 +10 for each difficulty
Raised the income of side=3 (dwarves) +2/turn for each difficulty
Added income to the Cave Bats
The unit that picks up the Poisoned Bow becomes loyal
Raised the income of side=3 (dwarves) +2/turn for each difficulty
Raised the income of side=3 (dwarves) +2/turn for each difficulty


	id="08_Disobedience"
Added income to the Naga side (there was o income before)


    id="10_For_the_Checkmate"
Splitted 'die events' in 'last breath' and 'die' events, so thatn the killed units are visible while they speak their last words

Please let me know what you think about it.
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Chief_Chasso
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Chief_Chasso » January 28th, 2014, 3:35 am

Playing through AVB again (version 1.0.2) on 1.11.7 (what a fun campaign :D ).
Just a little minor thing I thought I'd mention (before I forget)-
06_Emerging_from_the_Depths- there is another depreciated tag- [target] in the side [ai] tag.

Edit:
Another depreciated tag
13_For_Auld_Lang_Syne- "protect_my_unit" in the [ai] tag for side 5.
SP Campaign: Rally For Roanic

dalan94
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by dalan94 » July 19th, 2014, 9:08 am

I found an error in the units description of 'nage mage' and 'naga warlock'.
The tag for the description is 'description' not 'unit_description'.

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Adamant14
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Re: A Vision Blinded (15 scenarios, all complete and working

Post by Adamant14 » July 19th, 2014, 10:09 am

Fixed, thank you for the report.
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