Making the South Guard better.

[Wintermute]

1) make them easier to use, and provide hints how to do it.
2) consider the merfolk an optional element for the more advanced beginners.

I am inclined toward option 1 there. I think we can probably do both though. That is, make it possible to use fish in many of the scenarios, but not required.

A more definite focus and goal are a great way to start out.

You did play both of the branches that divide at scenario 5, right?
For me the game-changing choice the player makes in the middle of #5, is the single best dramatic moment in a Wesnoth campaign i've played. I don't see how it can be retained (or the good stuff following the choices) if the focus is simply on Loyalist units.

Number 5 is Choice in the Fog, right? There wasn't a choice when I played it (I'm on 1.3.2 FYI). I did get a depreciated WML error on that map, but I wouldn't think that would be a problem? Anyway, attached is the replay. THere was no choice, so I went ahead and killed the outlaw, then the soulless, then hit the litch with minimal dialogue. Odd. I'll look into the WML I guess.

Currently you can recruit

• 4 kinds of loyalist units: Peasant, Bowman, Spearman, Cavalryman
  + 1 merman (if you visit their place in scenario 1
  + 2 outlaws in the outlaw branch: Footpad, Thug, or
  + 2 elves in the elf branch: Elvish Shaman, Elvish Fighter

Though i think you can play with several other types of units provided in different scenarios.

To my mind, peasents don't really count, and since Mermaid hunters are part of the Rebels, I had considered it to be 3 loyalists and 3 rebels at the moment. But I also wasn't able to play the outlaw branch, so I didn't know that there were other options.

I just think a beginner friendly focus could be found that won't require the best parts of the campaign to be thrown out.

I agree with that - I don't intend to destroy any scenarios, but I think that tweaking is in order. Specifically to help a beginer fight undead. The last scenario (I think) does need quite a bit of work, but a lot of the rest is ok.


With footpads and thugs it seems easier to handle the undead, especially in a cave setting, but with the elf branch that I played I think that killing the litch is not a fun task for a beginer. With shamans being your only impact, and the litch draining any minor melee you can throw at it. Perhaps some holy water would help, but I think that an anti-undead would be good to have all through the campaign.

[Eleazar]

You did play both of the branches that divide at scenario 5, right?

Number 5 is Choice in the Fog, right? There wasn't a choice when I played it (I'm on 1.3.2 FYI). I did get a depreciated WML error on that map, but I wouldn't think that would be a problem? Anyway, attached is the replay. THere was no choice, so I went ahead and killed the outlaw, then the soulless, then hit the litch with minimal dialogue. Odd. I'll look into the WML I guess.

Urk, i just confirmed that scenario 5 is broken in the trunk as well.
When you first spot Urza Afalas the badit leader, he is supposed to initiate a dialog that ultimately provides you with the big choice. I wonder how long this has been busted.

Also the map is supposed to be covered in shroud, but it was only covered in fog.

[SkeletonCrew]

[Number 5 is Choice in the Fog, right? There wasn't a choice when I played it (I'm on 1.3.2 FYI). I did get a depreciated WML error on that map, but I wouldn't think that would be a problem? Anyway, attached is the replay. THere was no choice, so I went ahead and killed the outlaw, then the soulless, then hit the litch with minimal dialogue. Odd. I'll look into the WML I guess.

I recently looked into this bug https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?9064 and the choice did work. (Note the crash is a C++ problem) Tested with a trunk version.

[Wintermute]

Glad to see someone's going to take up the banner as it were.

Into the Depths is a travesty. It was originally going to branch out into a longer digression, but that destroyed the dramatic momentum of the campaign. I would pay actual cold hard cash if someone rewrote this scenario not to be worthless dreck.

Sure, I'm glad to do it! Into the Depths will be the big project here. I think that there are some bugs in Choice in the Fog, but I think that most of the campaign is pretty good as it is now.

My intention was for the mermen to be useful in the second and third scenarios to hold the rivers. It would probably be good to add some notes (like those in the first scenario) explaining this. I also want new players to see that there are water specific units!

I also like keeping the fish around. My thought would be to keep them useful in some scenarios all through the game. Perhaps they could escort Garrik on his mission, while the elves stay behind and help out in Into the Depths? I think it hurts to rob the player of all of his most recent xp before fighting the litch.

Establish a focus and goal for the campaign. Since tSG is intended for beginers, I would suggest that it should introduce and focus on the tactics of one primary faction.

On the contrary, I wanted new players to gradually be introduced to a variety of units (Loyalist, Outlaw, Undead, Elven in roughly that order).

I see. Well there is some value to that, I agree, but the problem that I was having is that I wasn't sure which units to level, and which would be useless later on. For example, the elf bodyguards dissapear, and then ALL the elves leave later on... I think that could put the player in a bad position if they weren't ready for it.

I purposely excluded these units to force the new player to rely on tactics, local numerical superiority and the time of day instead of simply recruiting a million heavy infantry and wailing away with them.

I am less worried than I was originally, now that I see how the scenarios are supposedt to work. The problem now is that some of the WML is broken, so things are not quite working as they should. I think that after smoothing some things out we should be able to keep the original vision of the campaign (without mages/HI).

For me the game-changing choice the player makes in the middle of #5, is the single best dramatic moment in a Wesnoth campaign i've played. I don't see how it can be retained (or the good stuff following the choices) if the focus is simply on Loyalist units.

This is the single most important thing about the campaign. That stark moral choice is what the story hinges on and the dialog is all centered around it. Before that scenario all the characters are telling you how evil the Bandits are preparing you for a difficult choice:

Do you show them mercy when it becomes clear that they're not in control any more or do you exact justice for their crimes?

I would ask that this fundamental dramatic dynamic not change, no matter what else happens to the campaign.

This sounds great, I look forward to fixing it!

One new idea: It seems to me that the peasents in the first scenario are mostly a waste of gold for first time players, and would be ignored on any replay of the campaign. Perhaps we could make them more ... useful by starting off with Dorean arriving in a village (at current start location) and raising the local millita (say 6-8 loyal peasents), but without a keep until SOUTH of the river fort. Also a few outlaw units in between the river fort and the starting location.

Then The player would have to fight to the river fort (also giving Garrik more of a "besieged" feel), then make it just south of the river to recruit a real army in the keep. That would give the peasents more of a role in the story. Also, loyal peasents could get some dialogue later in the campaign, which might be nice. Perhaps even one of them could become the "trapped" unit in into the depths, creating an emotional reason to rescue.

[zookeeper]

I'd agree that if you ever give the player peasants (if they can recruit some real troops as well, that is), most of the time give them loyal peasants. Those are much more fun to have around than just being able to recruit them (since those are more or less worthless).

[santi]

If you really want to make the South guard better, the first thing to do
is to listen to user's comments and get rid of Vengeance. Keep the
story if you want, but get rid of the scenario. Other bugs are fairly minor compared to this

[Eleazar]

If you really want to make the South guard better, the first thing to do is to listen to user's comments and get rid of Vengeance. Keep the story if you want, but get rid of the scenario.

Actually that's about the last thing that should be done. Because if we get rid of it, we must replace it with something. What do we replace it with? Something that fits with the over-all goals of the scenario— which are being discussed.

Once the over-all goals are established, it's reasonable to start from the beginning, and work towards the end. Any significant changes effect all following scenarios.


P.S. I agree Vengeance has problems. But trying to solve them is not a logical first order of business.

[santi]

Although I'm for "making it work first, improve it later" and " less than perfect portraits are better than no portraits" for example, I think here
not replacing it is better than leaving it in.
Other comments I already posted in the appropriate place, p. 21

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=300

[kontorotsui]

Actually I like the Vengeance scenario. To hold a fortress against overwhelming numbers is a fine challenge.
The map is really fine, no changes here.

I would change:

1) Have the player be able to get a lot of gold out from the previous chapter, including a bonus (i.e. the Lich treasury). A minimum of 200 gold is a must.

2) Change the scenario objectives. Have Ithiriel send a messege to the elf leaders to recall the attacking force. This would take at least 5 days. The player must hold until then. After 5 days, the messenger is not back, but if the attacking elves enter the inner fortress hexes or have a fight against Ithiriel, you're offered to surrender. There is another hard choice: if you accept, you save your men but end enslaved or something like that, if you refuse you keep fighting to the end but you win if you survive two more days.

3) Make the attacking party work as usually, i.e. 1 or better 2 fortresses, with 5-6 recruiting space. Huge gold available to the attackers (like 3000 each) and they recruit 50% level 1, 30% level 2, 20% level 3 units.

[santi]

That is some wished -for Vengeance scenario, it's very far from the actual one. What I dislike most is that you are punished for fighting back.

[Edward V Riley]

THe mermen..

Yes, in the later scenario's what use are they? This reminds me of Warsong.

A character named Tiberion is in this one. Make him a Serpent Knight and he's completely useless for the last 10 scenarios(out of 20 in the game). Serpent Knights are great on the water, but there's literally only a few small ponds in the later scenarios with no enemies anywhere near them.

Plus, he can summon Mermen as his units. Warsong's auxillary units are mostly of the rock, paper, scissors variety. Soldier beats archer, which beats horsemen, which beats soldier. THere's also Guardians, which are good against slimes and nothing else. Mermen? Nothing. They are like soldiers that cost more than regular soldiers but are far less effective against anything.

Adding a few waterways in the later scenarios would definitely help, maybe throw in a few more sea monsters and nagas to combat.