Children of Dragons

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Sapient
Inactive Developer
Posts: 4453
Joined: November 26th, 2005, 7:41 am
Contact:

Post by Sapient » April 9th, 2007, 9:58 pm

Leaving the Mountains is too hard on the higher difficulties.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

Ewan
Posts: 103
Joined: July 29th, 2004, 4:50 pm

Post by Ewan » April 10th, 2007, 6:42 pm

Enjoying this very much today; drake tactics (especially against other drakes) are interestingly different.

One small bug report: in 'Sea Journey,' the human Grand Marshall (Alamar) is in the recall list, which seems odd ;-)

Yogin
Posts: 98
Joined: November 18th, 2005, 7:49 pm

Post by Yogin » April 11th, 2007, 1:26 am

I agree with Sapient.

I did Leaving the Mountains on medium difficulty and only accomplished it with save/reload, huddling in the NE corner, and using the AI tendency to not attacked with very injured units. I had all 4 gryphons down to red, before I had the leisure to kill one. Then I just out-ran the ogres.

You really should do one or more of the following:

(1) get rid of the "all units must survive" rule
(2) either provide another unit or two, or allow recruiting
(3) provide a more varied amount of enemy units.

The (1) is really the pain. If no one can survive, gryphons are too strong, because they swarm, and you don't have enough units to ZoC well. Not to mention gryphons in mountains. Ugh.

If you want the scenario to remain a race, rather than a battle, just get rid of (1), or provide a mix of enemy units rather than swarming gryphons.

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » April 11th, 2007, 3:12 am

Thanks for the feedback.

@Yogin/Sapient - I will definitely have another look at Leaving the Mountains as I agree that it probably is a bit too hard. I really like the no losses idea, so I'm hesitant to remove that. I'll try both 2 and 3 of Yogin's suggestions and see how that goes.

@Ewan - thanks for letting me know. Will have a look at it.
This signature intentionally left blank.

Yogin
Posts: 98
Joined: November 18th, 2005, 7:49 pm

Post by Yogin » April 11th, 2007, 10:03 pm

A neat idea would be to provide a Saurian Soothsayer when they come out of the opening. That would help the survivability a lot via healing, that and another unit to help screen ZoC. Or maybe provide some skirmishers as well, and make it so the skirmishers can die, but not the soothsayer and drakes. This would provide a good segueway into lizard/drake friendship in Wesnoth. However, this would require changing more mountains to hills, so the saurians can keep up with the drakes.

And also, the gryphons are just a pain. Maybe 2-3 gryphons, and then some units that are similar to the Drake movement type in mountains, wolf riders? or bears? or some others that match drake speed, rather than overrun and surround them.

Also, I played through the whole thing, some further comments.

(1) The ship scenario is kinda cool and interesting. Neat concept.

(2) Most of the undead scenarios were too easy, precisely because by that time, you have Drake Infernos/Flamehearts/Fire Drakes. They just rule over all the level 1 undead, even the dark adepts, and even at night, tho it's a bit more painful then. Maybe mix in more initial lvl 2 undead units.

(3) You really should go back over the terrain on many of your levels. Take a look at the terrain from other campaigns (HttT, UtBS). They provide good examples of much more varied, complex, real terrain. Some things that need changing:
(a) too many flat fields with no variation. The first scenario is cool - kind of a colloseum effect. After that, it becomes painful. Same thing with the all mountain terrain, and the all forest terrain.
(b) the cave levels need to get rid of all the "1-wide" cooridors. Northern Rebirth, which is finally getting included in mainline, is having to redo all their 1-wide cooridors.

(4) The time limit on some levels is very tight. It results in very little gold. One option is to provide a few more villages, to at least offset the upkeep. I ended up mucho negative gold in several scenarios, due to a lack of villages that could offset the upkeep in lvl2/3 units.

(5) This one may be a bit beyond the scope of your campaign, but I was hoping for more scenarios that utilized drake tactics more. Most of your scenarios involve: get to point X as fast as possible. I'd like to see more defeat enemy Y, that involved more complex tactics, involving varied terrain, where the user has to learn to use drake mobility, time of day, and unit distribution more.

(6) Overall, good job on making a fun campaign.

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » April 16th, 2007, 11:04 am

Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback Yogin. I've already put a lot of it in place (hopefully will be releasing it shortly).
Yogin wrote:A neat idea would be to provide a Saurian Soothsayer when they come out of the opening. That would help the survivability a lot via healing, that and another unit to help screen ZoC. Or maybe provide some skirmishers as well, and make it so the skirmishers can die, but not the soothsayer and drakes. This would provide a good segueway into lizard/drake friendship in Wesnoth. However, this would require changing more mountains to hills, so the saurians can keep up with the drakes.
I've deliberately avoided bringing Saurians into it, partly because I wanted to really focus on the Drakes, but also partly because I'm trying to keep it consistent with other campaigns, particularly FtF which is set quite a while after CoD. And according to FtF they only discover the Saurians towards the end of that campaign.
Yogin wrote:And also, the gryphons are just a pain. Maybe 2-3 gryphons, and then some units that are similar to the Drake movement type in mountains, wolf riders? or bears? or some others that match drake speed, rather than overrun and surround them.
I hear you. :) I've made a number of changes to the composition of your enemies in that scenario. I've reduced the number of gryphons to 1 for easy and 2 for normal and hard. I've made a couple of other changes to that scenario too. You might just have to play it again to find out what though. ;)
Yogin wrote:(1) The ship scenario is kinda cool and interesting. Neat concept.
Thanks. I was really happy I managed to implement that.
Yogin wrote:(2) Most of the undead scenarios were too easy, precisely because by that time, you have Drake Infernos/Flamehearts/Fire Drakes. They just rule over all the level 1 undead, even the dark adepts, and even at night, tho it's a bit more painful then. Maybe mix in more initial lvl 2 undead units.
Fair enough. I've allowed your enemies in the final couple of scenarios to recruit level 2 units as well.
Yogin wrote:(3) You really should go back over the terrain on many of your levels. Take a look at the terrain from other campaigns (HttT, UtBS). They provide good examples of much more varied, complex, real terrain. Some things that need changing:
(a) too many flat fields with no variation. The first scenario is cool - kind of a colloseum effect. After that, it becomes painful. Same thing with the all mountain terrain, and the all forest terrain.
Yeah, maps is one area I know I need to work on. I've done some work on that, trying to vary it a bit more.
Yogin wrote:(b) the cave levels need to get rid of all the "1-wide" cooridors. Northern Rebirth, which is finally getting included in mainline, is having to redo all their 1-wide cooridors.
Hmmm. Well, there's only the one scenario that has that (The Emerging), and I quite like the effect it gives. I'll have a look at it though, maybe try it with wider corridors and see how it goes.
Yogin wrote:(4) The time limit on some levels is very tight. It results in very little gold. One option is to provide a few more villages, to at least offset the upkeep. I ended up mucho negative gold in several scenarios, due to a lack of villages that could offset the upkeep in lvl2/3 units.
Fair enough. Can you be more specific - which levels was this a problem?
Yogin wrote:(5) This one may be a bit beyond the scope of your campaign, but I was hoping for more scenarios that utilized drake tactics more. Most of your scenarios involve: get to point X as fast as possible. I'd like to see more defeat enemy Y, that involved more complex tactics, involving varied terrain, where the user has to learn to use drake mobility, time of day, and unit distribution more.
Well, there are only 3 scenarios that are get to a point rather than defeat enemies. However they are all in a row (The Emerging, Leaving the Mountains and Dark Forest), which is probably why it seems like there are a lot of them. I've changed Dark Forest now so that you have to defeat the enemies there too (unless you somehow manage to get to the end of the map without seeing any of them ;) ).
Yogin wrote:(6) Overall, good job on making a fun campaign.
Thanks. Again, I appreciate the time you've taken to critique it. I should be able to release all the changes I've mentioned above later this week.

Oh, and Ewan's bug is fixed too - you can't recall Alamar any more. :)

Mark
This signature intentionally left blank.

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » April 18th, 2007, 9:14 am

I've just uploaded 0.6.0 onto the campaign server.

Most of the changes are listed in the previous couple of posts, but a quick summary:

* Maps for most levels have been modified, primarily to make them less boring :)

* Leaving the Mountains - reduced number of gryphons, added wolf riders, added several new events

* Dark Forest - changed objectives; now need to defeat enemies unless you can get through the forest without seeing any of them

* Allowed enemy leaders to recruit level 2 units in the last couple of levels

* Can no longer recall Alamar in Sea Journey

I think that's about it. Thanks again to those who have offered their feedback.

Mark
This signature intentionally left blank.

Yogin
Posts: 98
Joined: November 18th, 2005, 7:49 pm

Post by Yogin » April 19th, 2007, 1:49 am

MarkP wrote:Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback Yogin. I've already put a lot of it in place (hopefully will be releasing it shortly).
You're welcome.
Yogin wrote:(1) The ship scenario is kinda cool and interesting. Neat concept.
Thanks. I was really happy I managed to implement that.
I just thought of a cool idea. Occasionally, you could have the ship pass an island volcano or something, maybe with a village or two, to give the drakes some variation in terrain and a place to heal.
Yogin wrote:(4) The time limit on some levels is very tight. It results in very little gold. One option is to provide a few more villages, to at least offset the upkeep. I ended up mucho negative gold in several scenarios, due to a lack of villages that could offset the upkeep in lvl2/3 units.
Fair enough. Can you be more specific - which levels was this a problem?
Sorry, I don't remember offhand. I think it was medium to later levels. I remember having trouble with the one where I have to kill the rebel drakes at the end, and the one with 1-wide cooridors. I would go over all the levels with 25 or less turns, and double-check them.


Oh, I forgot to tell you. I found a bug regarding that drake hurricane who tags along from the council. He died at one point, but the scenario didn't fail, and he never appeared or could be recruited in future scenarios, but the goals always said that he couldn't die as a condition of victory.

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » April 19th, 2007, 2:59 am

Yogin wrote:I just thought of a cool idea. Occasionally, you could have the ship pass an island volcano or something, maybe with a village or two, to give the drakes some variation in terrain and a place to heal.
I had thought about something along those lines. Haven't quite worked out a nice way to manage that in the WML (without hardcoding the terrain changes for every turn). I'll have another look at it when I've got some time.
Yogin wrote:I remember having trouble with the one where I have to kill the rebel drakes at the end, and the one with 1-wide cooridors. I would go over all the levels with 25 or less turns, and double-check them.
Will do, thanks.
Yogin wrote:Oh, I forgot to tell you. I found a bug regarding that drake hurricane who tags along from the council. He died at one point, but the scenario didn't fail, and he never appeared or could be recruited in future scenarios, but the goals always said that he couldn't die as a condition of victory.
That's weird. Thanks for letting me know. Will sort that out.

Mark
This signature intentionally left blank.

bignall
Posts: 82
Joined: April 20th, 2006, 12:25 pm

Post by bignall » April 19th, 2007, 2:33 pm

I just downloaded and started playing Children of Dragons again. And, I got Kahn up to a Chancellor in Bandits, and I noticed that his leadership is not having any effect when he's next to a Level 2 Unit. It does work with level 1 units, but only gives 25% increase instead of 50%.

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » April 20th, 2007, 2:56 am

Thanks, bignall - will check that.
This signature intentionally left blank.

Bjartmarr
Posts: 12
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 8:31 am

Sea Journey

Post by Bjartmarr » September 16th, 2007, 8:39 am

I found a bug.

In the Sea Journey scenario, I have Kahn up near the front of the ship. I end a turn, and a naga gets moved on top of him, and he disappears. If I attack the naga with another unit, it says I have been defeated.

Other than that, I'm enjoying the campaign. Playing on medium, I thought the "through the mountains" scenario was very easy -- one ogre was able to catch me, but other than that I avoided all combat on the level.

Gold is very tight. I started Sea Journey with around 190 gold, and of course there's no way to get more on that level. Dunno how I'm going to get gold for the next scenario.

Also, I noticed the same bug with Kahn's leadership ability not kicking in until he's level 3.

flabort
Posts: 35
Joined: September 29th, 2007, 9:20 pm

Post by flabort » September 29th, 2007, 10:55 pm

I havn't tried this campain yet, but it sounds very interesting. perhaps i may include a cross-reference in my campain, Quest for the Black Flame, with a "hero" named Cryptor, and you're controlling, well.... elves for the first four scenarios, and undead for the rest. but i won't cross reference without your permision. probably, 'll just have a drake leader for an enemy at one point, and when i beat him, my men will say "was that a dragon", and Cryptor will probably say "no, just probably a child of dragons."
Why build a bridge over a river, when you can stay at home and play?

MarkP
Posts: 77
Joined: December 11th, 2006, 2:18 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by MarkP » October 3rd, 2007, 9:47 am

Firstly, let me say that unfortunately I haven't had much time to spend on CoD lately, what with family, studies and another (non-Wesnoth) project I've been working on. But I am still around, and hopefully will get some time to work on it in the not-to-distant future.
Bjartmarr wrote:In the Sea Journey scenario, I have Kahn up near the front of the ship. I end a turn, and a naga gets moved on top of him, and he disappears. If I attack the naga with another unit, it says I have been defeated.
I'm pretty sure I know what would be causing that. I'll sort it out whenever I get a chance to look at it next.
Bjartmarr wrote:Other than that, I'm enjoying the campaign. Playing on medium, I thought the "through the mountains" scenario was very easy -- one ogre was able to catch me, but other than that I avoided all combat on the level.
The location of your enemies at the beginning of that scenario is random. Sounds like you were just lucky. :)
Bjartmarr wrote:Gold is very tight. I started Sea Journey with around 190 gold, and of course there's no way to get more on that level. Dunno how I'm going to get gold for the next scenario.
I have made a number of tweaks on my local copy to try and balance it based on previous feedback, so hopefully that should help.
Bjartmarr wrote:Also, I noticed the same bug with Kahn's leadership ability not kicking in until he's level 3.
That I've already fixed in my local copy, but I don't really want to upload it until I get a chance to do some more changes and testing.

Thanks for your feedback. :)

flabort, feel free to reference it however you see fit. :)

Mark
This signature intentionally left blank.

flabort
Posts: 35
Joined: September 29th, 2007, 9:20 pm

Post by flabort » October 11th, 2007, 6:30 pm

well, i still haven't found it in the campain server.... why? and one question: is there any shroud? i like shroud, but i don't seam to like fog of war..... but that doen't matter. were can i get it?
Why build a bridge over a river, when you can stay at home and play?

Post Reply