Naming of Humanoid Dragons

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Eponymous-Archon
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Joy-kill

Post by Eponymous-Archon »

Sorry to do this again, but "Draconian" has nothing to do with dragons. It refers to the Athenian law-giver Draco and his severe punishments for various, sometimes minor, crimes.

So can we come up with another name for these units, if they're going to stick around?

(No doubt someone will cite some fantasy author who uses the word in this way. :-()
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turin
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Post by turin »

the idea is that 'draco' is the latin name for dragons and so 'draconian' means 'of dragons'. this is somewhat illogical, but if it is for a user-made scenario, let them do what they want. :)
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Dave
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Re: Joy-kill

Post by Dave »

Eponymous-Archon wrote:Sorry to do this again, but "Draconian" has nothing to do with dragons. It refers to the Athenian law-giver Draco and his severe punishments for various, sometimes minor, crimes.

So can we come up with another name for these units, if they're going to stick around?

(No doubt someone will cite some fantasy author who uses the word in this way. :-()
Draconians are actually one of the 'features' of the Krynn/D&D world - a cross between dragons and men. However I think this is another reason we can't use them: using them in this context may infringe on copyright, or at the least, look unoriginal.

Imo large fire breathing lizards should be called 'dragons', smaller humanoid lizards, that perhaps are not fire breathing, should be called 'lizard men'.

David
Last edited by Dave on April 14th, 2004, 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by miyo »

Dave,

Krynn/D&D can't copyright latin.

- Miyo
Eponymous-Archon
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Post by Eponymous-Archon »

miyo wrote:Dave,

Krynn/D&D can't copyright latin.
1. "Draconian" is English, not Latin.
2. Words in general are copyright-able, doesn't matter what language they're in.
3. Even if it isn't copyrighted, it still seems too much like copying or stealing.
4. In general usage, the word means something completely different from how it's being used here. Sounds like it should refer to a bunch of overly strict disciplinarians or lawmakers...actually, that would make a scary unit. ;-)
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Post by Circon »

To miyo:

1. Draconian is *derived* from latin, in the same way as several languages borrow words and then form forms of them.
2. Nope.
There was a huge argument between Tolkien's lawyers (NOT the Prof himself) and a bunch of fans, over whether or not the Elvish language was copyrightable. The lawyers wanted to prohibit people from even DISCUSSING Elvish on the web.
AFAIK the lawyers backed down, mainly because the case was hard to get anywhere.
If the lawyers can't win their suit over a language, I'm betting nobody will sue us over words.


Still, I agree that it will sound rather unoriginal. But so will Lizardmen (see ToME and a host of other places.
Dragon, Lizardman.
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Post by Loriel »

Single words and short phrases cannot usually be copyrighted.

However, they can be registed as tradmarks, and protected that way. See Windows/Lindows/Lindash for a current example.
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

Listen, I'm not calling them lizardmen for the sole reason that they're dragons in a humanoid shape. Lizardmen are lizards like the actual in real life critters in human shape, not to mention that people would go discuss over that name aswell since only one or two creatures edge more to lizards than to dragons (the slave and petit) I came with the name Draconian for the reason that "Draco" clearly reminds many of dragons and the -ian end is an overaly used end to names for groups (a good example in my view is Norwegian) and above all I did -not- create this topic to discuss if the name os copyrighted or not, since this remains the ART thread...so stop discussing that name? these discussions never lead anywhere and the ONLY name in entire wesnoth that could bring up copyright issues would be chocobone.

*edit* altought if Draconian already has a clear and well known alternative meaning like noted before in the topic I'll just do what I always do and find another great word for the race; but still Lizardmen and Demi-Dragons have a huge difference wich I could show easily; for example that lizardmen in my book are much smaller and have more of a "tribe" system, not ot mention that they have much greater speed overall.

And yes I'm working out the negative parts for the race, for example most level 1 units only have a ?-1 fire attack making it just a defencive move against archers instead of a true attack weapon. And they'll get a high exp rate not to mention that because they're overall stronger than other races most of them cost deeper in purse. and they can fly, but you should remember that the weight they pack doesn't make them the fastest race around. it just means they can outrun races who get stuck in bad terrain like tundra or swamp, but they'll never catch up with a horse or elf.
hook

Post by hook »

i had no idea i couldn't call a koala a koala, just because some stupid bloke in japan uses them on his cookie-boxes :roll:

...anyhoo, i don't know what's wrong with Dragons or Draconians ...but if you're _that_ hot on not having a normal name, why don't we just invent one ...like Dreth or something
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Post by Eponymous-Archon »

Partly because of Neoriceisgood's comments, I had stopped commenting on the name, but since you bring it up again...
hook wrote:i had no idea i couldn't call a koala a koala, just because some stupid bloke in japan uses them on his cookie-boxes :roll:

Point is that this is calling a koala a kangaroo. You can do it - you can do anything you like - you'll just confuse a lot of people (and sound a bit ignorant :-)).
hook wrote:...anyhoo, i don't know what's wrong with Dragons or Draconians ...but if you're _that_ hot on not having a normal name, why don't we just invent one ...like Dreth or something
I'm hot on having very normal names, just ones that don't mean something completely unrelated to the way they're being used. (I gave the centuries-old definition of "Draconian" earlier in the thread.)

Lizardmen seems pretty good to me, partly perhaps because I don't understand Neoriceisgood's finer distinctions.
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

These are big bulky flying guys with firebreath, lizardmen are small sneaky guys that rely on evading hits. it's like calling a crocodile a lizard.


*edit* perhaps this guy will prove my point
Guest

Post by Guest »

I googled a bit and it seems the Latin for dragon is drago. So how about dragarion. This should translate to small dragon.
Another suggestion is drak or drakling.
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Post by Darth Fool »

Anonymous wrote:I googled a bit and it seems the Latin for dragon is drago. So how about dragarion. This should translate to small dragon.
Another suggestion is drak or drakling.
How about drakonian or does this still upset the purists?
"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Drake Drake, n. AS. draca dragon, L. draco. See Dragon.
1. A dragon. Obs.

Beowulf resolves to kill the drake. --J. A.
Harrison
(Beowulf).

2. A small piece of artillery. Obs.

Two or three shots, made at them by a couple of
drakes, made them stagger. --Clarendon.

"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Drake Drake, n. Cf. F. dravik, W. drewg, darnel, cockle,
etc.
Wild oats, brome grass, or darnel grass; -- called also
drawk, dravick, and drank. Prov. Eng. --Dr. Prior.

"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Drake Drake, n. Akin to LG. drake, OHG. antrache, anetrecho,
G. enterich, Icel. andriki, Dan. andrik, OSw. andrak,
andrage, masc., and fr. AS. ened, fem., duck; akin to D.
eend, G. ente, Icel. "ond, Dan. and, Sw. and, Lith. antis,
L. anas, Gr. ? (for ?), and perh. Skr. =ati a water fowl.
????. In English the first part of the word was lost. The
ending is akin to E. rich. Cf. Gulaund.
1. The male of the duck kind.

2. Cf. Dragon fly, under Dragon. The drake fly.

The drake will mount steeple height into the air.
--Walton.

Drake fly, a kind of fly, sometimes used in angling.

The dark drake fly, good in August. --Walton.
turin.

Post by turin. »

why not just call it a drake? :)

or just call it a dragon..looking at the images, it doesn't look all that humanoid.

anyway, if you insist on creating a new name, go with Drakonian, it has the same sound, so if you liked Draconian it will be good, but it won't upset people who want it not to be confusing. (although personally, i think making up names for a race is somewhat stupid when there are plenty of good dragon-words floating around. wyvern, drake, wurm, serpent, uru-loki (OK, thats from Tolkien), etc)
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

nah turin, the deal is that those creatures all already excist;
wyvern= armless dragon creature
drake- smaller dragon-esque type creature
wurm= a snake-like dragon
serpent= the one above but for water
uru-loki=?

however Drakonian sounds good if it makes the lot of you happy, since the blunt k looks good to me, if everyone thinks this name is ok please tell me ^^
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