[Complete] Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

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maze
Posts: 13
Joined: September 6th, 2012, 7:53 am

[Complete] Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

Post by maze »

Conquest Minus Ladder Tournament (1vs1)

Essentially this is a Conquest- tournament, good having a version of Conquest Minus. Some Conquest minus players they said a ladder tournament would be nice.
There we go


#1 The Rules
- according to Conquest Minus Ladder rules:



# The next settings are obligatory (they cannot be changed, even if both players would agree):


* There is more Conquest variants, but use Conquest Minus only.
* the latest or the pre-latest version of Conquest Minus; the pre-latest version is recommended if the latest one is fresh and so might contain bugs

* In the game lobby set:
o Era: Default
o Observers: On
(note: during the game you can mute all observers by typing "/muteall" to the chat line)
o Use map settings: On
o Time limit: None
(note: prior the game starts it is very recommended to discuss the game pace, whether the players are allowed to be afk (away from the keyboard) during opponents' turn etc.)
o Income: Normal
(note: if you change it then it will not have an effect to the income but the starting gold)

* Within Conquest Minus set:
o Mode: capitol or bank
# The next settings are completely free and depend on preferences of both players only

* Map (scenario): any Conquest Minus map From the list below
* Number of sides both players control: 1, 2, 3 or 4. So possible games are anything between '1 vs 1' and '4 vs 4'
* notes:
o For 1 vs 1 the maps with a center are not balanced, because the side closer to the center gets an advantage. Therefore 1 vs 1 should be played on maps with teleports that remove the advantage of the center, or on special maps designed for 1 vs 1 (Lotrando, Poland, Dative).


All games are 1vs1 ladder games. No Exception. Anyone can register who played at least one game in Conquest Minus ladder. I will wait to see the number of players before making any tournament table. I plan at least two groups, where everyone will play minimum of 3 opponents twice before a final.
Four players goes into the final And four other plays for the 5th, 7th places.



#2 Game play and settings
- First game's Host is random.

Somehow have to be decided who will be the host of the game.
(one way: Both players join the game shuffle sides on. After start the player Who get p1 Will be the Host of the game)
After Decided who is the host, a new game need. P1 hosts the game chooses the map and the settings. The First turn have to be saved by both players Before any moves.

- Second Game is a Pre-made Game.
What is a Pre-made Game?
- a game that started by loading a Starting Savefile. Starting Savefile is a saved game of turn one in the beginning of a Conquest Minus game.
How to start game from the Starting Savefile:
In the game lobby just click on Create Game / Load Game (the "Load Game..." button is on the top of the list)

In this way starting positions are balanced even If a player has a difficult starting position in the first game.



#3 Some Special Rules
- No Timer.

- No spawn Ratification.
We do not Want many Restarted games.
Reason: if "Spawn-Ratification" is on Then It is Possible in the first turn to trust in luck and recruiting only 3g units (hoping in weak AI). Recruiting only 3g units is a risky play. If anyone chooses this strategy then have to play it whatever how strong AI spawns.

- On the other hand, I have to make it clear Let us fix it:
Spawn Ratification can be used if BOTH players agree.



According to ladder rules.. ( The next settings are completely free and depend on preferences of both players only
In order to increase the chance the game will be better balanced, players can agree on one or more of next measures:
* use Spawn Ratification:
In the very beggining of turn 2 (before the red player has moved), "Spawn Ratification" goes on: both players proclaim whether they ratify the start or not, and they should do it "simultaneously" - they can trust one another or to PM their decisions to a referee / neutral person. Each player is allowed to refuse max. one spawn (per a game).
So without a referee the Spawn Ratification goes this way:
1. Both players privately decide whether they ratify the spawn or not
2. Players ask one another "Ready for the spawn ratification?". After both players agree ...
3. Both players reveal their decision
4. If both players ratified the spawn then the game may begin)

If both players Agree with Spawn Ratification, it can be used. If one disagree, then No.
Have to be Discussed before the game starts.



#4 Maps
- players may choose to play the tournament games from the following default maps:



1st Round maps:

* Conquest- Dative (no center)
* Wesnoth
* Xanthor

o Mode: capitol or bank
* Number of sides both players control: 1, 2, 3 or 4. So possible games are anything between '1 vs 1' and '4 vs 4'



2nd Round maps:


* Conquest- Dative (no center)
* Conquest- Dative
* Lotrando
* Gagarna

o Mode: capitol or bank
* Number of sides both players control: 1, 2, 3 or 4. So possible games are anything between '1 vs 1' and '4 vs 4'




3rd Round maps:

* Conquest- Dative
* Lotrando
* Gagarna
* Liquergue (teleports)
* Conquest- New Age Pasarganta
* Conquest- Surdmark (teleports, short distances)
* Conquest- Surdmark (teleports, long distances)


o Mode: capitol or bank
* Number of sides both players control: 1, 2, 3 or 4. So possible games are anything between '1 vs 1' and '4 vs 4'

FINAL ROUND maps:
- The maps for the finals will be picked by me, or if I play the final, I will give the task to someone else.



#5 Rules regarding matches and forum
- Players are obliged to inform when they will play the game in this topic and allow observers to join their games. Games played in the tournament system has to have a "Conquest Minus Tournament" title ,
One of the players should upload the replay to the forum when the game is finished. I would encourage people to try split who uploads the game, the winner or loser, equally so as to increase the suspense for observers. The player should also report the result of the game in spoilers. Comments are welcome too.



#6 Registration phase
- Registration Phase starts now, You can join the tournament sending me a PM with your forum nick or post in this topic.
- Registration is open for any Conquest Minus ladder player who played at least one game lifetime.
(Why one game? Need a bit of experience. Good to know the game settings and ladder rules)

- I know most of the players are in European timezones. To make it easier for people not in these timezones to schedule their games, it is possible to have an American/Asian/Australian group etc. Of Course any European can join that group who is playing wesnoth at night/morning. If any player feels that playing around European timezones might be difficult, pm me let me know when you do play, (example: "I am online usually about GMT 2:00-6:00" or "GMT 16:00-23:00") and I will try my best.
- this tournament Will require small part of your time, so please be sure that you will have enough of the free time to participate without causing major problems to the other tournament players and host.
- after Registration Phase ends, I will randomly assign players to their groups.



#7 Round Times
- 1 Round two weeks
- In general, I expect players can easily play ~2 tournament games every 2 weeks˝. Hopefully at least one game in two weeks. Fact, long rounds are killing the tournament.

The rules, some maps, the Round Times are still open to discussion.
If you have questions you are welcome. Any questions, ideas, advices are welcome. Feel free to make a post here or PM me.








Registered for Tournament:
MAze
enclave
Last edited by maze on January 1st, 2015, 11:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
MAze

Conquest Minus LAdder Tournament:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41430

enclave
Posts: 936
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 8:52 am

Re: Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

Post by enclave »

all looks good, idea is nice, and some may ask what is difference between tournament and ladder we already have?
The difference is in ladder 1 person can easily only play with 3 other players and be #1 (potentially)..
for example game history could look like "zeus won poseidon" "zeus won hydra" "zeus won poseidon" "zeus won hydra" "zeus won poseidon"... etc.. but would this person win every player out of 50? who knows..
so, to start with, - tournament is different thing! same idea.. different way to achieve the top.

I still dont fully understand the full process of tournament.. but who cares? lets just register.. then we can make the rules more clear.
What i dont understand so far is:
0) Starting step by step. So zeus hosts a game with shuffled sides on, against poseidon. To determine random result of who is host of their first tournament game. Zeus got p1, Poseidon got p2.. So now, Zeus can create a new game with lets say 2v2.. where Zeus P1, Poseidon P2, Poseidon P3, Zeus P4. They save on turn 1. Play game. Zeus won. So now they reload turn 1, swap positions. Now its same map they just played, loaded, but Poseidon P1, Zeus P2, Zeus P3, Poseidon P4. Poseidon won this game.
1) So first thing.. Zeus won 1st game, Poseidon won 2nd game. What happens now? This question would need answer before we start tournament. They play different map? Same map? who is p1? etc...
1.1) Will ai spawns be exactly the same if you reload turn 1 or they would change? This question would need answer before we start tournament.
2) Lets imagine Zeus won this, is this what you called "round 1" result?
2.1) So next, I assume he is fighting against other "Zeus" (winner) from the other group. And then Poseidon plays vs other "Poseidon" (Loser) from the other group? And will it be what you call "round 2"?
2.2) So now they would need to play another map? from "round 2" list?

I may have some other things I still havent understood, but for now answering these questions would help me a lot with my understanding of the system. :)


I agree to have voting forbidden, because in my opinion voting is total B**LS**T... which for me makes sense only if you play map withOUT teleports and you have spawned in corner between 2 enemy players. And even in this case you can not 100% for sure predict that in start of turn2. Pointless gambling where in result one of the sides managed to pull RNG work in his favor... Balanced? I will never believe it is there to serve balance, in my opinion it will only make more distance between player A (knows map like his own five fingers, plays very skilled) and player B (first time on this map, skilled newbie). Im glad i am not the only one who thinks so much negative about voting system. It has right to live and I understand the reasons behind that system, but it not necessarily always helps, so why even bother? All I know it was really annoying.
Who is not interested in voting system, or doesnt want to talk about it, please just skip to next chapter :)
Who would like to talk about it.. In my understanding voting system can help balance 1 good player against the other good player in the following way: P1 started in between 3 bonuses, 1 village each of Tarsia +13, Barca +11, New Carlon +11... something like that.. all ai spawns were lvl5... while P2 started already with bonus, with more starting gold, flying units, ports, and all lvl1 spawns.. Fantastic, voting helps! P1 says NO, LETS REMAKE. and maybe next game will be more balanced.
Now against it:
1) Skilled player has enough skills to figure out that he started in S**T.. newbie may not. Helps skilled player, doesn't help newbie at all.
2) Player who knows the map like his 5 fingers probably knows how far he will go from these positions and how long it will take. New to the map has no idea if his starting position is any good or bad regarding units, possibilities and tactics. Helps strong player, doesnt help weak player. So in both cases stronger player benefits, weaker player loses. So loser loses even more. Why?
3) Can do all 3g recruits, like MAze mentioned, and hope for nice ai.. why not?
4) Where is any guarantee that when you remake the story will not repeat the same way? You just starting a new game.. it doesnt give you 100% cure from imbalance, it only plays with RNG.. not lucky? Just live with it.
5) Why turn 2? Why no turn 3? It is very important to take first bonus as quick as possible.. so lets make it if you failed to take your first bonus turn 2, remake? just silly all this RNG play. If you are good, you will manage somehow.. no need to play RNG.
For tournament we could just make a couch.. if it is so necessary.. so if couch thinks one of the players started in impossible to win positions, could then maybe remake.. but still you play 2 games, same map, swap positions.. so absolutely no need for this S**T.

Last thing to comment..
about maps...
in my understanding there are different type of skills different players specialize at.. So lets say Zeus can win everyone on map1, and not win a single time on the other map (map2)..
From my own experience I will give best description I can... with examples:
Cisco (HannaH) is very very good on Dative, because map is mostly about fight, not much to do with growth, not much to do with terrain tactics.. pure bold fight... not much place for any kind of cheat, no birds from other side of river.. nothing like that (Im not saying Cisco is bad at New Age Pasarganta, I have no idea about this, im sure he is multiskilled person).
mmmmmax in my opinion is better on big maps, where you can grow or maneur.. (e.g. birds.. and other things).
Put mmmax vs cisco on Dativ, and I dont think that he has good chances, sorry if I am wrong, I only writting my thoughts.. I may be wrong on them, Please forgive me if so and nobody please get offended. Trying to give more real to life examples.
Lets put michael3 in example :DDD he is soooo bad at pure fight.. put him vs cisco on Dativ, 0% chance. But if you let him grow on some big map.. let him overcome you in income.. and I dont think that any fight skills can save anyone against large amounts of expensive units...
Lets put blop.. into example :) NAP, he even rebalanced the map. He is sooo good at huge map, if you look at game history it will mostly say something like "i was behind, blop had a lot more income than me and his p1 p4 and p6 attacked my p2 same time so i surrendered". So the guy has a great skill to grow like mad.. he knows the map. And he has enough experience to manage to put all his sides together against 1 enemy side.. Put him on dative, and the result may surprise everyone.
So.. what I was just trying to say is:
1) Every ladder player is great.
2) Every ladder player is better at some specific skill than the other (skills are: bold fight, fast grow, economy management, grow+fight, tactics, 2vs1)
3) Not every map will let specific player to show his full potential.. only 2-3 maps in combination can give more adequate results..
3.1) Putting Dativ as map of round 1 may destroy half of the great players before final.
3.2) dativ is a map of bold fight.. there is nothing else on that map... it will simply be not fair to people who are stronger in other skills like fast growth etc..
3.3) same is not fair to put NAP as a map of round 1.. some very good players have never even played it and will probably drown in it on turn 7.. when they will have to spend money and defend on 3 fronts..
3.4) as for me I would never like to play 3v3 on any map... too big chance of 1 side to be attacked by 2-3 other.. and Personally I have near to 0 experience in such fights.. that's why for example I would never play vs blop until I get necessary experience or skills, because otherwise it will be 100% looser for me..
4) What I am trying to say.. Ideally tournament would be 3 different maps, lets say.. Gagarna/Lotrando/Europe/Tangia/Wesnoth, Dativ and NAP...
4.1) Gagarna, Lotrando, Europe, Tangia, Wesnoth.. they all simple maps.. grow as fast as you can then fight... so basic maps... with mixed beginner skills.
4.2) Dativ. Pure bold fight.. not many maps like this.. I dont know any other with same idea..
4.3) NAP.. huge proper map.. Where you can show how fast you can grow, meet your enemy, continue to grow and same time try to fight him with 2 sides vs 1, use all sorts of tactics and units, spend money wiseley on all fronts.. Thats the map that would reveal full potential of any player.. all skills put together, but to be honest pure bold fight is not at all so much important as on Dativ.

So I hope I passed some idea.. about the maps.. they are all not the same.. players are all not the same.. 1 is stronger in 1 type of skill than the other.. Somebody has it all.. but its for sure not me :) I dont think I played even 100 conquest games.. most probably not more than 5-6 on NAP in total :) so i am so NOT experienced really.. so much to learn.

So in my idea, we would better play these 3 maps in each round.. 1st map (1point), 2nd map (1point), NAP(2 points)
idea 1) save on turn 1 each map.. and if somebody not happy with his start, he may contest it by swapping sides and reload.. instead of any voting and remaking...
idea 2) if Poseidon won vs Zeus on 1st, 2nd map but lost on NAP, they have to either play another one game on something like Liquerque..
2.1) Or they go back to reload on either of 1st 2nd or 3rd maps.. swapping sides, until one player gets more points than other..
so eg. After Poseidon won Zeus on 1st & 2nd map, he got 2 points, then Zeus won Poseidon on NAP, he also got 2 points.. now its a draw.. so they need to agree to play a reload swap sides on 1 of these maps... so they agree to play Dativ reload and Zeus won.. so he got 1 extra point.. so Winner of Round is Zeus.. 3/2
2.2) If nobody of them agree to play reload of any of 3 maps, they play neutral map.. not NAP, but not small... something like Liquerque or similar size with teleports.

Sorry for long post.. I hope didnt waste my time in vain :)

maze
Posts: 13
Joined: September 6th, 2012, 7:53 am

Re: Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

Post by maze »

Ok I try to answer.


Registration open.. Well Then time to fix these things first And Discuss.I cannot make any tournament table. I dont know if 10 joins or 20 or only 5 players :)

" 3) Can do all 3g recruits, like MAze mentioned, and hope for nice ai.. why not?
4) Where is any guarantee that when you remake the story will not repeat the same way? You just starting a new game.. "

I think starting with 3-4units is a big advantage. Especially if all the units can hit in the 2nd turn and all miitia takes villages. If I understood well you disagree with that spawn-ratification thing. You agreed with me at some point. But I didnt get your point when you were explaining. Why exactly good this for anyone. Whatever strong or new player.
Two strong player on an unbalanced map and distance without voting.. maybe it can be a pain for one of them. Yes I can imagine this.



"So I hope I passed some idea.. about the maps.. they are all not the same.. players are all not the ..."

Yes you did.
I thought easiest way is "go straight on". You switch on the light :) next to the road. Now more people can go straight on :)
(maybe some never register and thinks THIS is HELL- complicated and very involved)
But this is ok. C-Minus is not a simple game.
In basic wesnoth the RNG is a big factor. And can be decisive If the players are not carefully enough.
At this moment I think this is the best PvP-multiplayer game. COnquest MINUS is The Ultimate PVP Game Ever! Enthusiastic players need. Whatever they are new or experienced.



About Rounds and voting

In the 1st round Blop wil not play versus slowthinker for sure. So nobody will miss the "voting" .

On the other hand in a newplayer-Strongplayer battle the "ratification-system" serves and helps the new player.
Example: strong player is unlucky.. He ask a "RE". ok, on the next RE-make strong player got worse AI than first
:)
New player GOT many 1g AI and he GOT a winning CHANCE in the 1st turn :D With recruiting. He did not do anything Just 1 turn gamble :)) He bought some 3g just for fun..
Why not to try.. (I would vs a stronger opponent)
HE Still have one more Re-start chance!

Some players asked How long is this.. I Cant answer correctly. only the basic thing: 2or3 games/opponent 2 weeks = 1 Round

The question is: 2 games better or 3 ?

Examples :
There are groups so 2 games seems ok And enough. But on the other hand: The player who was unlucky had no chance to choose map. So a 3rd game is possible If all registered players Wants.


Why good to play only 2 games?

group1
Enclave
MAze
RANDOMnewp
Blop

1st Round
Blop-RANDOMnewp (Blop was lucky. host )
Maze-Enclave (MAze was lucky. host)

2nd Round
The rest Hosts

(no need shuffle OR ANY kind of RNG)
RANDOMnewp - MAze (RANDOMnewp hosts)
Enclave - BLop (Enclave hosts)

3rd Round
Pray for luck again :) (Random hosts make it exciting!)




2 best goes into the final.. Everybody is happy At least 3 player is. One had bad luck probably.

ADVANTAGE : FAST and predictable (tournament will not take for years)
DISADVANTAGE : Blop didnt care about WHO host. Probably he outplays everybody on every map. RANDOMnewp is the weakest . Let us just say this. RANDOMnewp tried hard He played good games he enjoyed the tourney. For him hosting is not much help. MAze or Enclave is unlucky one of them Cannot host a game . MAze was lucky in this case and maybe this factor is decisive.
If Maze is good enough to outplay Enclave on his favourite map...


Why good to play 3 games/round?

if there are 3 games/opponent
ADVANTAGE: both players hosts 1 game, Everyone plays at least 9 games
DISADVANTAGE: The Tournament is a bit longer. Maybe less players register for a reason they don not want to play 9 ladder. I am just Guessing.

Some more feedback from other players would be good..Some preferences (feel free to write PM or post here)
Last edited by maze on January 1st, 2015, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MAze

Conquest Minus LAdder Tournament:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41430

enclave
Posts: 936
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 8:52 am

Re: Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

Post by enclave »

maybe we were talking about different voting :)
anyway, I would join tournament, whatever the rules are as long as they are logical:)

maze
Posts: 13
Joined: September 6th, 2012, 7:53 am

Re: Conquest Minus Tournament 1vs1

Post by maze »

enclave wrote:
1) So first thing.. Zeus won 1st game, Poseidon won 2nd game. What happens now? This question would need answer before we start tournament. They play different map? Same map? who is p1? etc...
1.1) Will ai spawns be exactly the same if you reload turn 1 or they would change? This question would need answer before we start tournament.
2) Lets imagine Zeus won this, is this what you called "round 1" result?
2.1) So next, I assume he is fighting against other "Zeus" (winner) from the other group. And then Poseidon plays vs other "Poseidon" (Loser) from the other group? And will it be what you call "round 2"?
2.2) So now they would need to play another map? from "round 2" list?
Plan was 2 games/round (2games/opponent) to make this tournament fast and predictable. But some players said 3 games would be better.
So a third game possible on a new map. The host of the 3rd game is the piayer who did not host.
We could change this. I will overwrite it in the rules (first post) if decided.


enclave wrote: about maps...

Ideally tournament would be 3 different maps, lets say.. Gagarna/Lotrando/Europe/Tangia/Wesnoth, Dativ and NAP...
4.1) Gagarna, Lotrando, Europe, Tangia, Wesnoth.. they all simple maps.. grow as fast as you can then fight... so basic maps... with mixed beginner skills.
In my opinion First round maps should be easy, and well playable. Well I put in wesnoth and xanthor, But Not sure these are easy. :)
well, If you or anyone have better idea, you are welcome. Is the Europe map updated? If many people like / or played only on europe-map it is possible to put in.

The Problem is I do not know what the most players prefer.
Maybe that is why they do not register.
MAze

Conquest Minus LAdder Tournament:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41430

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