[Complete] PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
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Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
Game 2 between szdik570 on Den of Onis and myself is over.
szdik570's recruits: Drake spear, scorpion, human mage, human bowman, heavy infantry, one more that i didn't see. Leader: marksman
My recruits: saurian skirmisher, augur, thief, elvish fighter, drake burner, heavy infantry. Leader: lieutenant
szdik570's recruits: Drake spear, scorpion, human mage, human bowman, heavy infantry, one more that i didn't see. Leader: marksman
My recruits: saurian skirmisher, augur, thief, elvish fighter, drake burner, heavy infantry. Leader: lieutenant
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Blop on May 24th, 2014, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
I think the augur cost isn't too high. He is the most mobile mage around and very good in cave maps.nagafono wrote:perhaps, all the units, exept mudcrawler? cmon, cost of augur is already too high. grunt would be almost useless swhen he would cost 13 gold. that would mean that he is almost equal spearman, which, of course, far from the truth (i wouldnt even tell that in such way on maps with 14 villages there would be very hard to make grunt rush with 13 gold per grunt)Also i think both grunt and da need a +1g price increase. Mage perhaps, the others.. well i dont feel like they need an increase.
The grunt is overused in my opinion and can replace almost any chaotic melee unit in the wall function. I think with 13g it would still be used to hold villages and as a shield. It has more hp than any other chaotic unit (I believe).
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
augur can be simply killed from one attack of many units (for example, DA, drake fighter, mage etc.). and his damage is not very high. so, what is his role on the field in combined-faction game? not toughness guy, not damage dealer (any other magic unit can do it better, for example), but support guy. the only real aim of augur is to prevent attack units from poison. is it cost 18+ gold? i doubt it would cost even 16 in such a context.
so, the conclusion is that there are chaotic lists and lawful lists. with debuf of any core units (grunt and spearman) advantage would be taken by player with opposite karma (or whatever it is called)
orly? and what about raising spearman to 15 gold then? 'cause it is the mirror of grunt. i don't say, that it is the same, but it is serving for implementation of same goals. they are two core units, main units in pyra context. any change in their stats would ruin all the balance. of course, there is an option to make super defensive list of netural units with no options to attack which would be pretty competitive against chaotic/lawful lists, but what is the point to play against the opponent which will never attack first...The grunt is overused in my opinion and can replace almost any chaotic melee unit in the wall function. I think with 13g it would still be used to hold villages and as a shield. It has more hp than any other chaotic unit (I believe).
so, the conclusion is that there are chaotic lists and lawful lists. with debuf of any core units (grunt and spearman) advantage would be taken by player with opposite karma (or whatever it is called)
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
You may be right about the grunt. However, I would like to see more of other chaotic melee units. Maybe slight buffs can solve this.
I don't agree about the augur. He is very versatile and very mobile. Of course he doesn't have the muscle the dark adept has, but he kills stuff and has great evasiveness. He can outrun many units and move to anywhere on the map quickly. Moreover, an intelligent augur levels up with 2 kills. Pretty good if you ask me.
I don't agree about the augur. He is very versatile and very mobile. Of course he doesn't have the muscle the dark adept has, but he kills stuff and has great evasiveness. He can outrun many units and move to anywhere on the map quickly. Moreover, an intelligent augur levels up with 2 kills. Pretty good if you ask me.
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
I disagree that grunt is going to be utterly useless at 13g. The role is different in pyr as compared to default faction. As far as my limited understanding goes, when you do an orcish rush, grunts play a role of damage dealers during an early attack, with a unit such as assassin/wolf ( preferably ) taking up the finisher role.
In a DAOG attack on the otherhand, the damage dealer is the adept, and grunts are support units/finishers. So, one doesn't need a grunt rush, but some grunts.
Another thing that hurts is that, while all other magi have limited variety on damage types, the DA has the damage types that cover the entire spectrum of units. Only the ghouls can withstand them.
My vote still goes for a 13 g grunt.
As for the spearman, being a humanfoot is reason enough for him to stay at 14.
Regards,
abhijit
In a DAOG attack on the otherhand, the damage dealer is the adept, and grunts are support units/finishers. So, one doesn't need a grunt rush, but some grunts.
Another thing that hurts is that, while all other magi have limited variety on damage types, the DA has the damage types that cover the entire spectrum of units. Only the ghouls can withstand them.
My vote still goes for a 13 g grunt.
As for the spearman, being a humanfoot is reason enough for him to stay at 14.
Regards,
abhijit
Winner of The Alternate Frontier
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
The thing to say about the spearman though is that he shuts down cavalry on any map of medium size with cavalry and skeletons being more expensive than before.
I think with heavy infantry at 17g, the 12g grunt is okay. I woud prefer to lower skeleton's prices. With so much impact damage around they aren't that good anyway.
The dark adept definitely needs a raise though.
By the way, I would appreciate a slight hp raise for the goblin spearman. Right now he can be one-shot by lancers.
I think with heavy infantry at 17g, the 12g grunt is okay. I woud prefer to lower skeleton's prices. With so much impact damage around they aren't that good anyway.
The dark adept definitely needs a raise though.
By the way, I would appreciate a slight hp raise for the goblin spearman. Right now he can be one-shot by lancers.
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
so, do you think that it would be nice to ruin a half of lists, 'cause "DA is better dmg dealer than grunt"? chaotic forces have less variability because of lack of analogues of such units like woses, all kinds of horsemen and drakes and merman mage. let's remove one more! because they already have DA! nice arguement! on other hand, lawful forces have no poisoning units and that's all. all other types, which has chaos, are avaible.In a DAOG attack on the otherhand, the damage dealer is the adept, and grunts are support units/finishers. So, one doesn't need a grunt rush, but some grunts.
the point is, that the pair of DA and grunt can effectively act against almost everything. the problem of effective ultimate roster for chaotic ones is to find them good scout and support. of course, there are other options for core units, but that two are defenetly obvious. debuf one of them would be serious damage in balance and variety. the same thing is with DA. why dont we rais up spearman and mage first, huh?
a bit more lyrics. lawful factions are much more stronger by statistics, which we have been collecting on our local forum (you can check it in english here: http://tour.wesnothlife.ru/stats.php?lang=english . just scroll down a bit). and what do we see in pyra? majority of lawful units became cheaper while at least a hal of chaotic has raised in price. and now you want to nerf chaotics more. nice initiative
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
btw, another massacre has happen today. sand on shore of ruphus island (modified ex-hornshark) became red because of blood of corpses it is strewn. nagafono and Snowman have sent thier armies on slaughter. check the replay or open the spoiler to see who has made a bath from blood of his enemies
Spoiler:
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Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
Game 1 between Kira1 and myself continues now!
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
I vote to the option C!
And the match with thefish has ended finally. It was quite long and hard, but now I have the replay:
And the match with thefish has ended finally. It was quite long and hard, but now I have the replay:
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Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
Just throwing in some extra piece of information, i'm trying to answer everything...
Firstly i think i forgot to add: interestingly, when people were complaining about the DAOG, my impression is that they are nearly exclusively blamed the grunt part; many demanded 13g grunts but not 18g adepts. On the other hand, i am somewhat certain that it is the DAs solving the OGs counters too cost effectively, and not the other way around. The other factor was the pace. Because the matches were a lot more intense due to cheap magi, the upkeep of the horde versus the less numerous but higher cost units could never kick in. If DA price is increased, the game environment would not promote low cost unit rushes to the current degree.
Skeleton and HI, while the former severely underpriced and the latter is overpriced in default, are roughly equally good in being the armoured fighters. You cannot really protest to buff skeletons without buffing HI as well. Increasing magi prices will already affect them positively in an indirect way.
Undead in default always gets a shipload of impact to its skeletal face. Actually impact is the rarest physical damage type: only 11 of the 42 standard units has one, that's 26,19% (and i already included the staff of the Mage and Saurian Augur, and the kickboxing Skeleton Archers), while things are bit brighter in extended with 19 out of 64, which is 29,69%. There are three different serving of impact weapons, most of them falling into the category of laughable (staves, skeleton punch) or measley (zombie punch, glider kick, footie club and sling, dwarf hammer). Decent impact damage is scarce, and even part of those sources can be outrunned by the skeletons. Players usually have one single impact source, only for the sake of having one. That is the total opposite of impact growing on trees.
Goblin Spearman, just because widely used as countermeasures against loyalists, is not intended and expect to counter Horsemen here. Also, i am not doing stat tweaks for standard units by principle, keeping the 1.8 stats for cav, footpad and such are already troublesome.
Mind that grunt in default is not spammed because his low price is not justified for his stature, but because being the best working method. Let's check the northeners list:
Goblin Spearman - fragile
Orcish Assassin - overpay for support
Wolf Rider - overpay for mobility
Naga Fighter - water unit
Orcish Archer - not bad at all, reliable and cost effective, but strong trait is not beneficial for pushes and more frail than grunt
Troll Whelp - OP for 13, but has lower damage output and the lower mobility denies first night pushes and threats, which are key importance for starting second morning from an advantageous position
While i am experimenting a lot with a setup of "close to zero grunt, trolls and archers bought instead", the problem i felt is that the main weakness of northeners is the bad damage per hex ratio; they are always racing with time, because if the game reaches the state of late midgame with the climatic clash beginning, they are at a significant disadvantage. Their best bet is to keep the damage per hex and the number of hexes to attack from as high as possible, which can be achieved by spamming grunts and pushing them forward.
Very good question. To be honest, i think neither checking for the most frequent vote nor median of them would be fair. I expected a lot of B and C votes (and ultimately got them), to take one of the sides because of 1 vote advantage would not be too fair. If i go for the median, it will be "A" for sure, i could close the discussion right now.
I rather planned a narrow interval for the middle ground, so if a vote for the conservative plan equals 0, modest increase equals 1 gold, drastics equals 2 gold, then if the average of votes fall between 0,8-1,2 , we can talk about the modest being accepted. However i hope to make this mess clear not by the result of the votes, but by reaching some kind of agreement verbally, if possible.
I was still unable to answer Velensk yet... Maybe next day.
Firstly i think i forgot to add: interestingly, when people were complaining about the DAOG, my impression is that they are nearly exclusively blamed the grunt part; many demanded 13g grunts but not 18g adepts. On the other hand, i am somewhat certain that it is the DAs solving the OGs counters too cost effectively, and not the other way around. The other factor was the pace. Because the matches were a lot more intense due to cheap magi, the upkeep of the horde versus the less numerous but higher cost units could never kick in. If DA price is increased, the game environment would not promote low cost unit rushes to the current degree.
I don't have any data to claim either of the alignments as better, and the balance is trying to treat both side as equal. The reason why many chaotic units' price got increased and lawfuls' decreased is because in default, chaotics lacks the versality, and they are expected to overcome difficulty by - without trying to make it sound nicer - spamming the cost efficient units until the opponent collapses economically. On the other hands, the lawful counterunits are usually overpriced to prevent easily crushing the aggressors by counterspamming the counterunit. Still, your comment is spot on in regards that chaotics in general really, REALLY lack the higher price category units with hardly anything going above 16g, and similarly lawfuls really lack units below 16g. Spearman-Mage has the same potential as DAOG, yet people are mostly bashing only the DAOG, because it is cheaper and grunt has such an unbearable amount of hitpoints (2 more than spearman) and hits so hard (18 blade is actually quite mediocre amongst core fighters).nagafono wrote:so, do you think that it would be nice to ruin a half of lists, 'cause "DA is better dmg dealer than grunt"? chaotic forces have less variability because of lack of analogues of such units like woses, all kinds of horsemen and drakes and merman mage. let's remove one more! because they already have DA! nice arguement! on other hand, lawful forces have no poisoning units and that's all. all other types, which has chaos, are avaible.
the point is, that the pair of DA and grunt can effectively act against almost everything. the problem of effective ultimate roster for chaotic ones is to find them good scout and support. of course, there are other options for core units, but that two are defenetly obvious. debuf one of them would be serious damage in balance and variety. the same thing is with DA. why dont we rais up spearman and mage first, huh?
a bit more lyrics. lawful factions are much more stronger by statistics, which we have been collecting on our local forum (you can check it in english here: http://tour.wesnothlife.ru/stats.php?lang=english . just scroll down a bit). and what do we see in pyra? majority of lawful units became cheaper while at least a hal of chaotic has raised in price. and now you want to nerf chaotics more. nice initiative
I think you are biased by the dynamics of default era in many of your statement.Blop wrote:The thing to say about the spearman though is that he shuts down cavalry on any map of medium size with cavalry and skeletons being more expensive than before.
I think with heavy infantry at 17g, the 12g grunt is okay. I woud prefer to lower skeleton's prices. With so much impact damage around they aren't that good anyway.
The dark adept definitely needs a raise though.
By the way, I would appreciate a slight hp raise for the goblin spearman. Right now he can be one-shot by lancers.
Skeleton and HI, while the former severely underpriced and the latter is overpriced in default, are roughly equally good in being the armoured fighters. You cannot really protest to buff skeletons without buffing HI as well. Increasing magi prices will already affect them positively in an indirect way.
Undead in default always gets a shipload of impact to its skeletal face. Actually impact is the rarest physical damage type: only 11 of the 42 standard units has one, that's 26,19% (and i already included the staff of the Mage and Saurian Augur, and the kickboxing Skeleton Archers), while things are bit brighter in extended with 19 out of 64, which is 29,69%. There are three different serving of impact weapons, most of them falling into the category of laughable (staves, skeleton punch) or measley (zombie punch, glider kick, footie club and sling, dwarf hammer). Decent impact damage is scarce, and even part of those sources can be outrunned by the skeletons. Players usually have one single impact source, only for the sake of having one. That is the total opposite of impact growing on trees.
Goblin Spearman, just because widely used as countermeasures against loyalists, is not intended and expect to counter Horsemen here. Also, i am not doing stat tweaks for standard units by principle, keeping the 1.8 stats for cav, footpad and such are already troublesome.
Price increasement for augur can be found only in the B screenplay, as we are discussing the cost increasement of the high damage magical sources. The main issue with augur is that you can rarely practice all his skills you are invested the gold into (namely, to simultaneously need him for the better speed, movement, pierce resistance and healing capabilities, resulting in augur being less cost effective. Currently i feel 1 gold difference between the human casters and him; that 1 gold difference will be corrigated in both "A" and "B" plans.nagafono wrote:perhaps, all the units, exept mudcrawler? cmon, cost of augur is already too high. grunt would be almost useless swhen he would cost 13 gold. that would mean that he is almost equal spearman, which, of course, far from the truth (i wouldnt even tell that in such way on maps with 14 villages there would be very hard to make grunt rush with 13 gold per grunt)
Leave the hat on! I opened a big can of fat worms with this one, i want to hear the opinions, so we can finally put it to the rest.iceiceice wrote:Just want to lend my (very humble) opinions in support of what abhijit said (I do agree with everything that he said):
Orcish grunt at 12g is one of the most effective units in the game. This advantage is basically the mainstay of northerners in default era, such that in many cases it is correct to spam grunts exclusively or nearly exclusively. In PYRA it should come as no surprise that they should always be chosen... it's hard to go wrong with grunts, they are like 80% of a faction just by themselves.
(Okay, really done with the balance commentator hat this time...)
Mind that grunt in default is not spammed because his low price is not justified for his stature, but because being the best working method. Let's check the northeners list:
Goblin Spearman - fragile
Orcish Assassin - overpay for support
Wolf Rider - overpay for mobility
Naga Fighter - water unit
Orcish Archer - not bad at all, reliable and cost effective, but strong trait is not beneficial for pushes and more frail than grunt
Troll Whelp - OP for 13, but has lower damage output and the lower mobility denies first night pushes and threats, which are key importance for starting second morning from an advantageous position
While i am experimenting a lot with a setup of "close to zero grunt, trolls and archers bought instead", the problem i felt is that the main weakness of northeners is the bad damage per hex ratio; they are always racing with time, because if the game reaches the state of late midgame with the climatic clash beginning, they are at a significant disadvantage. Their best bet is to keep the damage per hex and the number of hexes to attack from as high as possible, which can be achieved by spamming grunts and pushing them forward.
Spearman.abhijit wrote:3. Not all magi are as threatening as the DA because:
a) Human mage's powerphase comes in the daytime, where grunt support isn't that effective. It can also easily be blocked by a unit, like a clasher with some clever terrain usage.
If you do decide to test the DA price increase, I would vote for the lawful mage to remain at 18.
Maybe Mermaid Initiate is already good as she is. Currently i feel Naga Hunter being inferior, both having a cost of 19. A bit marginal to talk about units of extended, but if initiate stays, price of hunter may have to be decreased.Snowman wrote: I would say A. And the poor initiate is imho so useless already that she should stay where she is, if not become cheaper.
I just wonder about something - will you (i) simply compare the number of votes and pick the most frequently voted one or (ii) look for median voter preference? To give an example: You end up with 15 for C, 12 for A, and 5 for B. Median voter prefers A but most frequent vote is C. I am asking because if (i) is the case, people preferring B might want to strategically vote for A.
Sorry about commenting on voting system rather than the game itself, I just thought this should be clarified.
Very good question. To be honest, i think neither checking for the most frequent vote nor median of them would be fair. I expected a lot of B and C votes (and ultimately got them), to take one of the sides because of 1 vote advantage would not be too fair. If i go for the median, it will be "A" for sure, i could close the discussion right now.
I rather planned a narrow interval for the middle ground, so if a vote for the conservative plan equals 0, modest increase equals 1 gold, drastics equals 2 gold, then if the average of votes fall between 0,8-1,2 , we can talk about the modest being accepted. However i hope to make this mess clear not by the result of the votes, but by reaching some kind of agreement verbally, if possible.
I was still unable to answer Velensk yet... Maybe next day.
Horus, organiser of International Wesnoth Tournament 2016
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
I think you are overestimating skeletons here. Gliders and footpads can definitely cause them troubles while being a lot faster. The dwarf hammer is not measly either, imo. Aside from that, heavy infantry can take more hits and can have the fearless trait which makes it potent. I suggest to try a 1g decrease in price. Right now they are hardly pickable imo.Horus2 wrote: Skeleton and HI, while the former severely underpriced and the latter is overpriced in default, are roughly equally good in being the armoured fighters. You cannot really protest to buff skeletons without buffing HI as well. Increasing magi prices will already affect them positively in an indirect way.
Undead in default always gets a shipload of impact to its skeletal face. Actually impact is the rarest physical damage type: only 11 of the 42 standard units has one, that's 26,19% (and i already included the staff of the Mage and Saurian Augur, and the kickboxing Skeleton Archers), while things are bit brighter in extended with 19 out of 64, which is 29,69%. There are three different serving of impact weapons, most of them falling into the category of laughable (staves, skeleton punch) or measley (zombie punch, glider kick, footie club and sling, dwarf hammer). Decent impact damage is scarce, and even part of those sources can be outrunned by the skeletons. Players usually have one single impact source, only for the sake of having one. That is the total opposite of impact growing on trees.
Also Kira1 and I finished a ridiculous game that started with me picking less serious recruits.
Kira1's recruits: elvish fighter, spearman, lancer, human mage, bat, saurian skirmisher. Leader: drake fighter
My recruits: augur, goblin spearman, glider, wose, human mage, spear fish. Leader: marksman
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Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
Ok... here's my view. Northerners are not a *weak* faction, they are an incredibly strong faction, in default era, because of the incredible and unmatched power of grunts.Horus2 wrote: Leave the hat on! I opened a big can of fat worms with this one, i want to hear the opinions, so we can finally put it to the rest.
Mind that grunt in default is not spammed because his low price is not justified for his stature, but because being the best working method. Let's check the northeners list:
Goblin Spearman - fragile
Orcish Assassin - overpay for support
Wolf Rider - overpay for mobility
Naga Fighter - water unit
Orcish Archer - not bad at all, reliable and cost effective, but strong trait is not beneficial for pushes and more frail than grunt
Troll Whelp - OP for 13, but has lower damage output and the lower mobility denies first night pushes and threats, which are key importance for starting second morning from an advantageous position
While i am experimenting a lot with a setup of "close to zero grunt, trolls and archers bought instead", the problem i felt is that the main weakness of northeners is the bad damage per hex ratio; they are always racing with time, because if the game reaches the state of late midgame with the climatic clash beginning, they are at a significant disadvantage. Their best bet is to keep the damage per hex and the number of hexes to attack from as high as possible, which can be achieved by spamming grunts and pushing them forward.
1. Chaotic.
2. 1 mp in hills, and most maps designed with pathways to accelerate grunt rush.
3. Get quick trait! Skeletons don't get this. It's a very big deal.
4. Mountain of hitpoints and good damage at night, for 12 gp.
Every other unit is there to support your horde of grunts. You don't make archers for fun, you make them to soften / kill things that are annoying for grunts, like ghosts or cavalry. Similarly for gobos, and similarly for assassins -- which you get to help you kill that village unit before the first night is over, or to kill dwarves / hi. You make a bare minimum of non-grunts depending on opponents composition... because archers just aren't nearly as cost effective as grunts. If you make too many, you might have to hold a village with an archer instead of a grunt and lose because of it.
The idea that trolls at 13gp are too good is nuts to me. Trolls are BAD! They are much much worse than grunts. They have much, much worse damage. They have much worse defense. They can't hold villages, which is *what you need to do to win* with a grunt rush. They are *devastatingly slow*. They are *much worse* than grunts against many key units like cavalry and woses -- why are they worse? Many units have high impact resistances and troll damage is already garbage. If they were like dwarf fighters and had two attack types they would be far far more useful. But as it is, if you tried to "grunt rush" and you brought a troll along, and you find a drake clasher sitting on a village? You will just have to cry and go home. IMO it would not unbalance default era MP wesnoth if trolls went down to 12gp. I'm not sure if I would recruit them in mp even then. Such a change would only affect certain SP campaigns where regeneration of trolls is (much) more important. The only possible scenario that would be affected is UD vs northerners. But that's the only matchup that could be affected afaict. There are some players (Mint) that still prefer not to recruit trolls in that matchup. If you think the main weakness of northerners is bad damage to hex ratio trolls are even worse in that camp... but the real issue is their speed. Man, recruiting trolls, is like that pink floyd lyric "no one told you when to run // you missed the starting gun".
So I think you could seriously consider bringing trolls down in PYRA, esp. if you did it at the same time as bringing skeletons down (which would depower grunts somewhat).
Final question: Will you also rebalance this way again before the grand final?
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
I think if you think trolls could be cheapened you're missing a second aspect to northerner stratagy. Northerners can actually do siege attrician style pretty well too as opposed to rushes and trolls make that work both on offense and defense. There are tricks that can be used to get a lot out of regen once you understand it for what it is and is not. An important note here is that getting the most out of regen actually works counter to the roll of a troll in a formation. As a meatwall (where trolls preform better than grunts even with lower defenses [except villages but you only need one unit to hold a village hex you need several units to hold a village]) you want trolls to be on the corners soaking hits and hexsides but as a regenerator you want trolls to be on the inside where they'll only take major damage from retaliation and are not worth focusing down or can't be. Once you figure out when to use it for which and how to make it so that ToD swings don't kill you (this doesn't work well against loyalists or drakes [who also tend to have impact resistant units] but the idea still applies) you can effectively have each troll be either 60ish hp worth of grit (resistances and defense evens out) for 13 gold. It won't be doing damage very quickly but it can do damage steadily and it adds up especially when you throw in the stuff that you arn't killing because your damage is getting soaked.
That said, if in mainline they costed any more than what they do I wouldn't recruit them except vs undead [and even then, mostly to give me the edge in daytime encounters and to give me a responce to archers]. Using them to full extent requires a different style of play than northerners usually go and the normal way they play is frequently as or more effective.
That said, if in mainline they costed any more than what they do I wouldn't recruit them except vs undead [and even then, mostly to give me the edge in daytime encounters and to give me a responce to archers]. Using them to full extent requires a different style of play than northerners usually go and the normal way they play is frequently as or more effective.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: PYRA Mudcrawler Is Devastating - The Tournament
@nagafono: I hope we get to meet in a game, during the tournament. May be you will drop that sarcastic and dismissive tone after the game.
PYR is not just about chaotic and lawful units. I can very easily generate a faction that contains a grunt, DA, wolf for a night attack, and then follow it up with a spearman, drake clasher or something else. What i wanted to say was that default northerners, need grunts to be cheap because of the lack of damage dealing ability, but in a DAOG grunts do not need to deal damage.Very few people go for just chaotics or just lawful units, and there's always other damage dealers, support in the mix.
But if you find my POV as 'destroying a half list of recruits' you may very well discard this one too.
@Horus2: In the spearman and mage combo, depending on who defends, the spearman will have to act as a damage dealer. The situation is not the same as a DAOG combo, where DA can hurt almost any defender, barring the ghoul( who has too few hp), unlike the mage.
Are we not having this discussion because many feel that DAOG causes some imbalance, and we all know where variety goes when it comes to an orcish grunt.nagafono wrote:debuf one of them would be serious damage in balance and variety
PYR is not just about chaotic and lawful units. I can very easily generate a faction that contains a grunt, DA, wolf for a night attack, and then follow it up with a spearman, drake clasher or something else. What i wanted to say was that default northerners, need grunts to be cheap because of the lack of damage dealing ability, but in a DAOG grunts do not need to deal damage.Very few people go for just chaotics or just lawful units, and there's always other damage dealers, support in the mix.
But if you find my POV as 'destroying a half list of recruits' you may very well discard this one too.
@Horus2: In the spearman and mage combo, depending on who defends, the spearman will have to act as a damage dealer. The situation is not the same as a DAOG combo, where DA can hurt almost any defender, barring the ghoul( who has too few hp), unlike the mage.
Winner of The Alternate Frontier